Should lolicon / shotacon be considered drawn child pornography?

[Tad Loaf]

How many Yugioh video game fans have ZERO interest in real Yugioh cards?

I mean that's a cute fanfic you wrote there but it doesn't actually support your point nor counter mine.

 

[WelperHelper99]

I miss Secret Asshole's deep-thunk scrollbar-raping posts. Dude probably can no longer get drunk enough without killing his career to make them.

Is he dead? Haven't seen him in forever

Yes I'm well aware of the Japanese origin of the term. That's not what we are talking about here. We are talking about manga and anime characters. Words shift and gain different meanings over time. The Japanese understand the difference between someone who is attracted to cartoon characters and someone who is attracted to real children. Which is why they didn't ban it when they banned real child porn.

Lolicon is still slang over there for pedophile. Nothing can change that

 

[Tad Loaf]

Lolicon is still slang over there for pedophile. Nothing can change that

Yeah and "otaku" doesn't inherently refer to being a fan of anime/manga in Japan like it does in the west, what's your point exactly?

 

[Kiwisee]

I’m pretty sure Dear Leader, @Null, said it best when he said that Lolicons are masters of projection in one of his streams a while back.

Them accusing anyone of being pedophiles for being disgusted with their fetishes is akin to saying “you hate spiders? you must secretly want to fuck them”

 

[WelperHelper99]

Yeah and "otaku" doesn't inherently refer to being a fan of anime/manga in Japan like it does in the west, what's your point exactly?

The entire concept of loli is tainted, diseased, rotten to the core. Fundamentally that's something you can never overcome

I’m pretty sure Dear Leader, @Null, said it best when he said that Lolicons are masters of projection in one of his streams a while back.

This entire thread is a IMAX projector

 

[Tad Loaf]

I’m pretty sure Dear Leader, @Null, said it best when he said that Lolicons are masters of projection in one of his streams a while back.

Them accusing anyone of being pedophiles for being disgusted with their fetishes is akin to saying “you hate spiders? you must secretly want to fuck them”

Uh yeah it's totally projection and not because of the several examples of notable anti-lolicons turning out to be actual child abusers. I'm sure this has been posted an obnoxious amount of times in this thread already but never gets old does it?
Not to mention how dishonest it is to pretend like the loli side were the ones to start throwing around the pedo accusations lol

 

[WelperHelper99]

Uh yeah it's totally projection and not because of the several examples of notable anti-lolicons turning out to be actual child abusers. I'm sure this has been posted an obnoxious amount of times in this thread already but never gets old does it?

View attachment 5563809

For every "anti" I can turn up 10 lolicons with CP on their drives. Source? This site

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

Lolicon is still slang over there for pedophile. Nothing can change that

And still doesn't change the fact that lolicon hentai is a thing, the Japanese recognize its a thing separate from hurting children, and lolis aren't real children.

 

[SSj_Ness (Yiffed)]

The people (teenage and young adult women) who are attracted to yaoi generally react with disgust when they find out what actual homosexuals are like and how they behave toward one another. They're attracted to an entirely unrealistic fantasy, one that pushes their particular buttons, but bears no relationship to the reality of the act.

Okay, even if that's true, they're still attracted to their idealized fantasy version of something; just because the actual reality may not interest them doesn't change what the subject of their interests is.

You're basically arguing that lolicons aren't predators, which is a different argument from whether or not they're attracted to children or not. And before you say "not all of them are", the overlap is obviously there to a significant extent.

What's autopedophilia? Sexual attraction to the image of oneself in the form of a child.

People who are attracted to yaoi may not care for real life gay sex, or gay sex in general, at all.

There's not a straight man in EXISTENCE who faps to (cartoon) men having gay sex together (for the sake of argument I'll male an exception for traps, which are gay as fuck, but just to avoid getting back into that). For Heaven's sake, concede to this point at least.

The point is that, yes, even two stick figures doing sexual acts can be considered obscene by someone depending on the person and the circumstance

It will not be seen as obscene by virtually any honest person. Obviously you shouldn't introduce sexual concepts to kids in any form aside from necessary education, obscene or not, and even then only by the parents in private. So, keeping the discussion to adults, none would find it obscene.

it wasn't optimal

Then I'd love to hear you explain how our culture is better now. Maybe not here, but elsewhere.

I've already conceded that their was an objective reality in regards to the visual nature of artwork

Right, so why do you insist on saying they're not kids and are just lines on paper? Yes, they're not real, but the I objective reality is a fictional child is depicted lewdly, and my argument is that's a bad thing. Are we finally on the sane page?

And once again, I ask, do you want to leave it up to unelected, bonehead, out of touch Judges to determine what should or shouldn't be censored? Cause I fucking don't.

I already said it's not ideal, but this IS how our system works. The judges and lawmakers are all retards, so we just throw our hands up and embrace anarchy? No, we have to work within the system to limit undesirable behaviors, as we always have, and always will. The left & right just disagree on what's undesirable, so we get a scattershot approach at banning things we don't want. We want drag queen story hour banned for example, and it's our right to pursue that.

The problem and the ultimate point Ness is that you haven't actually proven the idea that lolicon/shotacon encourages people to think of real life children as sex object.

Because the anatomy depicted in loli is reflective of that of real life children. That's why I harped on realism and art style so much; fapping to Lisa Simpson is weird but there's no human child with that anatomy at all. Shouldn't you be willing to compromise on that much at least? Even if you disagree, which I'm sure you do, you should understand my point has merit.

First off, what regulations?

I'd rather not write up a proposal on theoretical loli hentai regulations, but can you at least agree there's some sort of conceivable regulations which would be tolerable?

Second, we don't live in an ideal world. I can't consider how well a law would perform ideally because I know it won't be enforced ideally.

So then you're an anarchist. No law will ever perform ideally, we can only strive for the best outcome.

If the whole justification is that "it prevents people from possibly having naughty thoughts about real kids", that's not a tangible goal or benefit to society unless you can objectively prove that encourages pedophilic behavior towards children.

Let's say I can't prove it, so what? I can't prove Satanism is going to be detrimental to society, but I want that banned too (to a much greater degree, obviously). We can't twiddle our thumbs on what we know is good and true, pinning our fate on some studies. That's not ever how societ conducted itself until extremely recently, and is the left's whole agenda, they say there's no studies proving faggots are worse parents than straights for example and that there's no proof they influence their sexual orientation, so letting them adopt kids is fine, for example.

How about fuck studies? They're nice supplementary material but shouldn't be considered necessary for moving forth an agenda by any means.

Third, laws and regulation are only necessary in situations to protect people (in body/person/life/etc.) and their property/livelihood from the infringement on their rights.

Nope, we have all manner of laws not related to any of that. I shouldn't even need to point this out or cite an example, but look at public nudity, which is not related to the goal of "protect people/property". In every town and city in America and most of the civilized world that's illegal outside of extremely few specific venues where nudity is permitted, such as strip clubs, nude beaches, etc.

The only place where you can live nude in hour every day life is a nudist colony specifically set up for public nudity, and even then there's caveats, restrictions, etiquette, etc imposed on your conditional nudity. No place on EARTH has no restrictions, norms, or standards dude, and we have a right enforce them.

This case is clearly political and a case of judicial overreach. I can almost guarantee that his conviction will be overturned on appeal.

I hope so but that's looking very unlikely.

So, you want to live in a society where a person can be jailed for an internet meme?

Memes are broad in scope, if one was particularly objectionable then I'd like to hear why not. Remember, free speech and freedom of expression have never been unlimited, and over time more restrictions popped up, so I'm not suggesting anything new. It's already happening like I proved, which is fine in a vacuum (the concept of hailing for memes), it's just a question of which memes are jail worthy.

If you want an example, I'd jail every groomer tranny meme creator, memes which express pro-trooning should be considered an offense.

People don't live by "traditional moral values" anymore.

Of course not, we don't enforce them anymore. What do you expect? Liberalism is cancer for society, it has chipped away at the moral fabric of society for a long, long time.

Porn has always existed, even when it was banned. That genie is out of the bottle pal, its not going back in.

You misunderstand, I'm not interested in making porn not exist, I'm interested in making it illegal and socially taboo. If you draw your own hentai/film your own porn and keep it private then the law will never know and nobody will care except God.

I am very familiar with Socratic dialogue. That's not what you're doing. Keep in mind, one of the criticisms of Socratic dialogue is that you don't actually achieve a conclusion or come to some kind of agreement in the end, its just an endless cascade of asking "Why" and breaking down arguments without achieving much.

You could've fooled me, it is what I'm doing. I've never heard that critique before, it's rather untrue, the method has persisted because it has value as it does achieve much.

Something sounding logical doesn't make it true Ness.

Then point out why it's not true, simple as.

You have to articulate something irrefutable first.

I have, and you've done zero refutation. Instead you call for studies, which is not a refutation, you've provided no substantial counterargument on the subjects in question.

The thread title doesn't not specify that its only talking about underage lolis; its talking about lolicon artwork in general, which includes lolis of...all ages.

Illogical, if it was about "all ages" it wouldn't be a question as to whether it should "be considered drawn child pornography". That'd be like asking if an image of the sun should be considered drawn food, it makes no sense to bring up children if the subject isn't about them. This implies the topic is about what loli means, as has been pointed out, which means kids.

Of course nobody thinks drawn adults should be considered drawn child pornography, that's just nonsense my guy.

The point of my statement is that you are trying to regulate thoughts and feelings.

So what? We have before, haven't you heard of blasphemy laws? We should do what's in the best interest of society, and banning porn, loli included, is best. You might not agree but there's no law everybody agrees with, so instead tell me why I'm wrong, why it wouldn't be good to ban loli.

What exactly are we losing if loli is banned?

Once again, the fact that she doesn't age from her initial appearance is irrelevant

If you're saying she doesn't look like an adult then it's not irrelevant, you're saying she looks underage as a middle aged woman, one visually similar to other adult women in the series, excluding the elderly.

Good you cherry pick women who looked as young as her. I don't even know from which part of the series that particular photo of Bulma was taken.

I'm enough of a DB nerd to know that it's from the 23rd World Tournament, the one with Goku VS Piccolo, based on it raining and her holding an umbrella, the only time that happened in the anime. It's when she reunites with Goku after his training, aaround the same time period that Chichi image is from too.

I didn't cherry pick at all, aside from trying to find images mainly from DB and not Z, and especially staying away from DBS since the art style shift Toriyama underwent over the decades is absolutely massive (for the worse, I might add) and would not be conducive to good comparisons.

Her mother looked quite older than her in her teen years but I digress

That's not true, Bulma looked the same throughout the series. The only images I could find that made her appear younger were ones with more childish seeming hairdos and outfits. Her actual design is unchanged until around GT.

I mean did you see her mother? I'm not sure exactly what episode that mom pic is from, but her face looks virtually identical to teen Bulma's. In fact, even in Z where her mom should be fucking ancient, she still looks younger than Bulma does by the end of DBZ, which I can only attribute to being some kind of oversight in his design because her mom never has a wrinkle but Bulma does.

Under your methodology, anyone who found her hot is suspect because they found a teenager hot, despite the fact that she was explicitly a teenager.

No, because like I said, her anatomy is identical to adults, which isn't true in real life. Teens cannot be reliably differentiated from adults in anime, but children can be, like Pan.

You are lying to me if you can't differentiate Pan (3) and Bulma (16-40+). Similarly, you are lying to me if you claim to be able to differentiate Bulma (16, 17) from young adults in Dragon Ball/Z/GT, maybe even DBS. It's difficult enough in real life to tell a 17 year old from a 18 year old, it's not possible in anime.

That's literally what you did; you conflated the fictional children with the real ones. To quote your words "how about just don't include kids in porn stories or imagery?" They aren't children Ness, they are characters. Drawings. Stop conflating them.

See, you are being obtuse again and trying gaslight me into thinking I'm conflating fiction with real life. I clearly meant "how about just don't include the concept of kids--fictional or otherwise--in porn stories or imagery?"

You keep trying to paint me as more emotionally invested than I am for some reason. For the last time, I barely even care about this subject, that's why I'm not getting heated about it like others who are telling you to kill yourself over lines on paper. I am arguing on principle, I merely object because even though it's not real it is still obscene, TO A LESSER DEGREE precisely BECAUSE it's not real. In fact, I consider hentai in all its forms to be the lesser evil compared to any real pornography because it doesn't degrade real people like actual porn does. But hentai still needs to go, our pornsick society requires cleansing and hentai can possibly act as a gateway drug ("cite your source!!1!").

What the fuck is this? Have become unhinged?

Lmao it's copypasta, I'm mocking your incessant pleas for studies and sources.

Its really sad Ness, because you sometimes seem smart, but you really are all talk, no intelligence.

I think I've done a good job of not calling you a fucking retard so far because I know you're smart, just blinded on this topic in particular. And whether I'm intelligent or not is irrelevant, even a broken clock is right twice a day so you can't just dismiss me based on your opinion of my intelligence, all that matters is a good argument and you can't make one.

All you have to do is cite ONE study, ONE research paper proving your assertions, and you'd win the argument.

Even if I did you could nitpick it from a dizen5 different angles, just like I would if you cited a study contradicting my claims. You're placing FAR too much emphasis on their importance when historically they've barely even existed, let alone been considered for citation in classical debate. You really think the ancient philosophers were screeching at each other, "cite ONE peer-reviewed study, Aristotle!!1!"?

Part of convincing your opposition is to cite facts to backup your assertions.

There's no study showing loli is fucking degenerate and harmful to society, but there's no study to backup that transgenderism is either, and I couldn't give less of a fuck because I don't need a study to form basic conclusions about what's good and bad. I barely trust the medical community anymore after COVID, like actual doctors, so you REALLY think I care about sexologists (who are historically degenerates themselves), and their worthless studies? Why do YOU?

And there you show the flaw in your approach regarding argumentation. If your position is simply "ban meat because its bad", all I have to say is "don't ban it, its fine".

If I lay out my reasoning why it's bad though and you can neither refute me nor posit your own reasoning to the contrary as to why it's good, then you certainly seem to have the weaker position.

Maybe we are.

Certainly if this isn't Socratic debate but rather a studies exchange, which doesn't seem to be the intent of the thread.

Which isn't pedophilia.

How is it NOT? If you had a baby picture of yourself you got hard over then it's pretty cut & dry.

I mean that's a cute fanfic you wrote there but it doesn't actually support your point nor counter mine.

It actually does support my point, in fact it's the best post I've made on the subject and a killing blow as far as I'm concerned. Feel free to actually dispute it (hint: you won't).

Uh yeah it's totally projection and not because of the several examples of notable anti-lolicons turning out to be actual child abusers. I'm sure this has been posted an obnoxious amount of times in this thread already but never gets old does it?

Let me get this straight... The guys who jack off to cartoon kids are the ones less likely to be offending pedophiles than the ones who oppose it? Am I getting this right?

At best there's no correlation between either side and being an offender, but there's no way you're convincing anyone of your outlandish claim.

 

[Kiwisee]

Uh yeah it's totally projection and not because of the several examples of notable anti-lolicons turning out to be actual child abusers. I'm sure this has been posted an obnoxious amount of times in this thread already but never gets old does it?
Not to mention how dishonest it is to pretend like the loli side were the ones to start throwing around the pedo accusations lol

View attachment 5563809

Dr. Pizza hated anime in general, not just Lolicon. If your argument was meant to convey that anti Lolicons are supposedly more likely to be offenders, then it already falls apart because you are directly misrepresenting what he said:

Nice try pedo-apologist, but maybe you should lurk on this site a little more and you’ll find more Lolicons with threads here who are straight up pedophiles.

You obviously don’t read a lot of Lolcow threads since you think that little “meme” is a valid gotcha.

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

There's not a straight man in EXISTENCE who faps to (cartoon) men having gay sex together (for the sake of argument I'll male an exception for traps, which are gay as fuck, but just to avoid getting back into that). For Heaven's sake, concede to this point at least.

How do you know? Have you studied the subject?

It will not be seen as obscene by virtually any honest person.

Once again, how do you know? I'm sure there's some little old church lady somewhere that would find stick figure sex obscene.

Then I'd love to hear you explain how our culture is better now.

Women aren't treated like property? Black people aren't treated like property? Child Marriage is generally looked down upon, if not outright illegal? Child prostitution is illegal? Human rights recognized? We don't torture prisoners?

Right, so why do you insist on saying they're not kids and are just lines on paper?

Because that's factually true? Its still just lines on a paper, regardless of what it visually is meant to represent.

I already said it's not ideal, but this IS how our system works.

No no, pal, you don't get to have your cake and eat it too. When I acknowledge how the world works, you sit here and pontificate ad nauseum about how much better the old world was and how we should go back to "traditional moral values". Now, you want to say "this is just how our system works". But your right; this is how our system works, which is why I don't trust it not to fuck up.

The judges and lawmakers are all retards, so we just throw our hands up and embrace anarchy?

Did I argue for anarchy? Strawman arguments are the weakest arguments and the domain of the mentally deficient.

No, we have to work within the system to limit undesirable behaviors, as we always have, and always will. The left & right just disagree on what's undesirable, so we get a scattershot approach at banning things we don't want. We want drag queen story hour banned for example, and it's our right to pursue that.

So what's the point?

I'd rather not write up a proposal on theoretical loli hentai regulations, but can you at least agree there's some sort of conceivable regulations which would be tolerable?

I can't agree to anything if I don't know what it is. I don't think there are any conceivable regulations, because any attempt to regulate would be regulating expression based on nothing but people's personal distaste of something, and personal distaste shouldn't be part of anyone's legislation.

Because the anatomy depicted in loli is reflective of that of real life children. That's why I harped on realism and art style so much; fapping to Lisa Simpson is weird but there's no human child with that anatomy at all. Shouldn't you be willing to compromise on that much at least? Even if you disagree, which I'm sure you do, you should understand my point has merit.

It doesn't have merit. Lisa Simpson is more cartoony than many manga characters. So what? THERE'S NO FUNCTIONAL DIFFERENCE. Its all the same. You are the only one arguing for there being some difference, when you can't even articulate what that is besides one character's anatomy being less cartoony and slightly closer to realism than the other. I doubt anyone on either side of the debate cares about this nuance as much as you do. Its an impossible nuance to work with anyway. How realistic is too realistic? At what point is it unrealistic enough? Its an unworkable standard.

So then you're an anarchist.

Do you argue in anything other than strawmen.

No law will ever perform ideally, we can only strive for the best outcome.

You didn't say "best outcome", you said "ideally". Say what you mean.

Let's say I can't prove it, so what?

If you can't actually prove a negative outcome of this material, then you can't actually justify banning it. You are literally just asking people to ban something because you don't like it.

We can't twiddle our thumbs on what we know is good and true, pinning our fate on some studies.

People claim to know a lot things that are bullshit. This is sophistry that means nothing in the abstract.

they say there's no studies proving faggots are worse parents than straights for example and that there's no proof they influence their sexual orientation, so letting them adopt kids is fine, for example.

And they probably aren't technically wrong.

How about fuck studies?

How about we actually encourage more studies so we can come to fully understand the effects of this situation? Studies have long proven the negative effects of single parent homes. They should eventually come to some kind of conclusion regarding gay households. It might be a matter of not looking for outright negative factors, like the likely hood of child adopted by gay parents dropping out of school, but more oblique ones, such as how those children relate to parenthood, marriage, relationships, etc. compared to their straight peers.

Nope, we have all manner of laws not related to any of that.

And many of them are bullshit. Usually its those laws that turnout to be the horrible ones, like the Nuremburg Laws.

but look at public nudity,

Those laws would fall under people's rights to not be exposed to sexual content without their consent, as an extension of general sexual consent. Because nudity has an inherently sexual effect in human beings, people have a right not to be forcefully exposed to it against their will, the same as people have a right not to be exposed to any sex act against their will, or forced into a sex act against their will.

Remember, free speech and freedom of expression have never been unlimited, and over time more restrictions popped up, so I'm not suggesting anything new.

As I said before, restrictions to freedom of speech and expression are clearly delineated and quite limited, falling into a few specific categories. Memes don't fall into that unless they fall into one of those categories, like slander/libel.

It's already happening like I proved

That was a single outlier case that, as I said, will more than likely be overturned on appeal.

Of course not, we don't enforce them anymore. What do you expect? Liberalism is cancer for society, it has chipped away at the moral fabric of society for a long, long time.

So what, you want women to be arrested for not wearing long dresses and cutting their hair short? You want people to be arrested for sodomy? Maybe you think a black man should be lynched for catcalling a white woman. What mores are you specifically trying to enforce?

You misunderstand, I'm not interested in making porn not exist, I'm interested in making it illegal and socially taboo.

And as I already said, the cat's out of the bag dude. Its not going back in. And I don't want to go back to the 1800s or create a totalitarian state to enforce whatever your idea of "traditional mores" is.

You could've fooled me, it is what I'm doing. I've never heard that critique before, it's rather untrue, the method has persisted because it has value as it does achieve much.

Then you don't know what Socratic dialogue actually is.

Then point out why it's not true, simple as.

Once again, that is NOT HOW THIS WORKS. You make the claim, the onus is on you to prove it. Otherwise, I just call it bullshit and move on.

Illogical, if it was about "all ages" it wouldn't be a question as to whether it should "be considered drawn child pornography". That'd be like asking if an image of the sun should be considered drawn food, it makes no sense to bring up children if the subject isn't about them. This implies the topic is about what loli means, as has been pointed out, which means kids.

Of course nobody thinks drawn adults should be considered drawn child pornography, that's just nonsense my guy.

Lolis can be adults. For the last fucking time Loli is not tied to a specific age in hentai/anime/manga. Legal loli is a thing that exist. Lolis can be lolis and actually be adults, hence the 1000 year old vampire loli meme. Seriously you are not this stupid and can understand the concept. All the title asks is whether or not lolicon/shotacon is drawn child pornography. It doesn't mention or call out age at all. The only logical explanation is that you are simply trying to obfuscate the point to win the argument.

I have, and you've done zero refutation.

If you actually believe that, you simply having been paying attention.

So what? We have before, haven't you heard of blasphemy laws?

So what, do you think blasphemy laws back too, my man? Blasphemy laws are the hill you want to die on? Really? Really?

We should do what's in the best interest of society, and banning porn, loli included, is best. You might not agree but there's no law everybody agrees with, so instead tell me why I'm wrong, why it wouldn't be good to ban loli.

What exactly are we losing if loli is banned?

I've already stated this. Multiple times. In this thread. It would be an infringement on individual rights and free expression with no material benefit to society. Loli is artwork that causes no verifiable harm to society, in the same vein that "hate speech" are words that cause no verifiable harm to society. What we lose by banning loli is our freedom of expression. We give the government in roads to ban speech and expression that people simply don't like, opening the door to more government overreach in our lives, which you've even acknowledged. Due to the vagueness of the term loli, we give the government carte blanche to define that word as it sees fit and as broadly as it wishes. There is no material benefit to banning loli/shota, and too much risk in doing so.

If you're saying she doesn't look like an adult then it's not irrelevant, you're saying she looks underage as a middle aged woman, one visually similar to other adult women in the series, excluding the elderly.

*Gasp* Its almost like Toriyama draws most of his women to look like young teenagers! Its not like its common in anime for a teenage girl and her adult mother to look like twin sisters only a few years apart!/sarcasm

Teens cannot be reliably differentiated from adults in anime

Almost like its freaking animation, and all anime characters are good looking!/sarcasm Once again, it doesn't matter, still a teenager in context.

but children can be, like Pan.

You are lying to me if you can't differentiate Pan (3) and Bulma (16-40+).

Pan is a literal toddler. Of course she looks different.

See, you are being obtuse again and trying gaslight me into thinking I'm conflating fiction with real life. I clearly meant "how about just don't include the concept of kids--fictional or otherwise--in porn stories or imagery?"

I quoted your literal words. Its not my fault you are careless with language. Be a man, concede the point.

You keep trying to paint me as more emotionally invested than I am for some reason.

I mean, you obviously are. You've been going on rambling diatribes about morality and good vs. evil for days. If you weren't invested, why would you bother?

For the last time, I barely even care about this subject

Yes, that's why you've spent days arguing about it.

that's why I'm not getting heated about it like others who are telling you to kill yourself over lines on paper

I will give you that. You're unlike some of the other guys in here who default to name calling, swearing and bullshit.

In fact, I consider hentai in all its forms to be the lesser evil compared to any real pornography because it doesn't degrade real people like actual porn does.

On this, we actually agree.

Lmao it's copypasta, I'm mocking your incessant pleas for studies and sources.

You didn't do a very good job.

all that matters is a good argument and you can't make one.

My argument is to counter your assertions. The problem is that you make 50 different assertions, so I have to spend an hour countering each one, just typing my response. That's what happens when you constantly introduce rabbit holes. Shit gets lost in the weeds. If you simply argued A POINT, and kept your responses concise, we might get somewhere.

You really think the ancient philosophers were screeching at each other, "cite ONE peer-reviewed study, Aristotle!!1!"?

The ancient philosophers had nothing better to do all day but sit around and talk about life. The scientific method didn't exist then. There were no peer reviewed studies. Knowledge was not as vast, and collated as it is now. Now, we have infinite knowledge at our fingertips. There's no reason not to cite relevant information other than such information simply not existing.

There's no study showing loli is fucking degenerate and harmful to society

There. Was it that hard just to admit this?

but there's no study to backup that transgenderism is either

Just the opposite actually. There are plenty of studies showing the negative aspects of transgenderism; the high rates of suicide, the high comorbidity with other behavioral, mental health, and personality disorders, the extreme physical side effects of transitioning, personal testimony from detransitioners, etc. None of these things may influence your personal distaste for troons, but information like this will be imperative in the ongoing cultural fight surrounding the issue, which is why the troons and their allies do everything possible to bury and suppress any negative study that show these negative aspects, and prevent the study of others, like rapid onset gender dysphoria.

I barely trust the medical community anymore after COVID, like actual doctors, so you REALLY think I care about sexologists (who are historically degenerates themselves), and their worthless studies? Why do YOU?

Because good science is still being done. Despite certain a lobby's attempts to suppress and control information, the science is still being carried out, and the truth is still being made clear. Because people with integrity do still exist in the scientific field, and they deserve to be heard and to have support for what they do.

If I lay out my reasoning why it's bad though and you can neither refute me nor posit your own reasoning to the contrary as to why it's good, then you certainly seem to have the weaker position.

Except you don't lay out your reasoning. You just make assertions about Lolicon's negative effects on society, then, when I ask you to prove your assertions, you just...don't do it.

How is it NOT? If you had a baby picture of yourself you got hard over then it's pretty cut & dry.

Autopedophilia would be the attraction to the idea of one's self as a child. Pedophilia is attraction to children, as in other people's children (or your own). Two different paraphilias, in the same vein the gynephilia and autogynephilia are two different things.

Dr. Pizza hated anime in general, not just Lolicon in general.

Dr. Pizza was clearly conflating anime with lolicon/shotacon, so the point still stands.

 

[Tad Loaf]

Nice try pedo-apologist, but maybe you should lurk on this site a little more and you’ll find more Lolicons with threads here who are straight up pedophiles.

You obviously don’t read a lot of Lolcow threads since you think that little “meme” is a valid gotcha.

Even one example is good enough to show it's a possibility, unlike you I'm not making any ridiculous claims that either side is one extreme or the other. I'm sure if you get even more angry though it'll really show me whats what.

It actually does support my point, in fact it's the best post I've made on the subject and a killing blow as far as I'm concerned. Feel free to actually dispute it (hint: you won't).

The overlap of yugioh players who prefer digital to physical has no barring on anything else outside of the overlap of yugioh players who prefer digital to physical. (owned)

Am I getting this right?

As usual, no you're not, that isn't even my claim. (owned, again)

 

[Equal Rights for Androids]

In both cases, they are talking about real children.

If they were talking about real children, why don't I see "real" anywhere in that definition?

Autopedophilia.

It has the concept of a child involved in sexual arousal. It has the word "pedophilia" in it. You're still a pedophile in some form. Even if it's not directed towards a real child.

We are talking about manga and anime characters

But no, we're using the term loli/shota. We do not use a different word to distinguish real life pedophilia from fictitious pedophilia.
eg
This would be called 退化したロリコン行動 aka degenerate lolicon behavior. even the news uses lolicon in place of the actual academic word 小児性愛者 in places.

The Japanese (you're talking to one) know that people who are attracted to cartoon children are still pedophiles and that's why it's still stigmatized in Japan. Women don't want to talk to you if they know you're into loli/shota. It's too ecchi. CSAM wasn't banned in japan, just explicit child porn. There are still photographers that will dress children in scantily clad clothing and have them pose. As young as six years old. In sexual positions doing erotic shit. And it's still legal. And that sells right alongside the shota/loli and other porn shit in the basement of manga/book stores. We recognize it's the same type of content meant to stimulate the same kind of pervert. Even those that aren't very familiar with nijigen/MAG.

Slightly unrelated, but I don't buy the whole "they only want 2d women". Cosplay porn is a huge industry coming out of Japan. Men will spend hundreds of dollars on cosplay pornographic films to see their favorite anime character having sex in real form. There's a lot, a LOT of children dressed up as popular anime children (Nezuko Kamado is one of the recent popular children) and filmed doing provocative shit like I talked about above.
I remember when Ookami Kodomo no Ame to Yuki came out. This was before the 2014 ban. One webpage selling some .avis had literal children holding Bad Dragon wolf dildos. They had those little nekomimi ears and tails. This is on the same website as they sold some ero af Transformers doujinshi don't judge me I just want my roboporn.

When you jerk off to this shit, you wish it were real. You want it to be real. If you could have your fav loli in living flesh, you would take her.

Normal people are under no delusions. We know you would rape that little girl if she existed in real life. The loli may not be real but your dick is real and your desire is real and your fantasies leave you longing for something more than just your hand. You wish it were more than the fleshlight. You can touch her figurine as much as you want but it's not the same as her warm flesh that remains out of your reach due to it being 2d. I know a segment of the kigurumi population dress as loli to have sex with each other or will put their loli kigurumi mask on a sex doll and have sex with that. They want it to be real. If you put a kigurumi mask on a real child I'm certain most loliphiles would rape that child if given the chance. That's the object of their sexual desire in real life. lmao

 

[Kiwisee]

Even one example is good enough to show it's a possibility, unlike you I'm not making any ridiculous claims that either side is one extreme or the other. I'm sure if you get even more angry though it'll really show me whats what.

You made the assertion, via meme, that everyone who is against Lolicon is a closeted pedophile. Your proof was a handful of weirdos who engaged in projection, and some guy who hates anime (and was clearly looking for an excuse to justify his hate for it).

Doesn’t change the fact that the meme itself misrepresented what Dr. Pizza said nor does it change the fact that Lolicons are, at best, pedophiles who are attracted to fictional children.

Have a little bit of shame and stop trying to make ridiculous assertions to justify your porn addiction.

 

[Father Fornicatio]

You misunderstand, I'm not interested in making porn not exist, I'm interested in making it illegal and socially taboo. If you draw your own hentai/film your own porn and keep it private then the law will never know and nobody will care except God.

I agree so so much with this, while i myself don't mind the cheeky fan service and occasional panty shot, we as a society have gone full blown degeneracy where now people are arguing if it is ethical to be fucked by your dog....those discussions shouldn't even occur!!. There is no shame, chastity, self control, at this point we as a society are worse than animals who only fuck when they are in heat. Perverts should be kicked back to the dark side of the internet, seedy dark alleys, questionable clubs, and any normalization of degeneracy should be met with laughter and a flamethrower.

 

[demicolon]

I'm scrolling down those Great Text Walls of (Underage) China and it cracks me up.

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

If they were talking about real children, why don't I see "real" anywhere in that definition?

It has the concept of a child involved in sexual arousal. It has the word "pedophilia" in it. You're still a pedophile in some form. Even if it's not directed towards a real child.

This is a waste of time. Its clear your not actually arguing in good faith and just want to play semantic word games ("Well, hurp a derp, I don't see the Word "real" so how do you know its talking about just real children, hmmmm?" I don't know motherfucker, is it because pedophilic attraction is something diagnosed in people who express attraction to real children?) So continuing to argue this is pointless.

The Japanese (you're talking to one) know that people who are attracted to cartoon children are still pedophiles and that's why it's still stigmatized in Japan.

First, you don't speak for all Japanese. Second, if the Japanese people as a whole actually believed that, they would have made it illegal with real child porn. Clearly, they don't. They may expect you to keep it private, but most people want others to keep their porn interests private.

Women don't want to talk to you if they know you're into loli/shota. It's too ecchi.

Which is irrelevant.

CSAM wasn't banned in japan, just explicit child porn.

Child porn is CSAM.

There are still photographers that will dress children in scantily clad clothing and have them pose. As young as six years old. In sexual positions doing erotic shit. And it's still legal.

If you are talking about Chidols (Child idols or young idols), they don't do anything explicitly erotic; its a form of gravure and they mainly pose in swimsuits and uniforms, and never get naked or do anything explicit. Still creepy as fuck, but not child porn, technically.

And that sells right alongside the shota/loli and other porn shit in the basement of manga/book stores. We recognize it's the same type of content meant to stimulate the same kind of pervert.

Are you talking about loli/shota being sold in the porn section? If that's the case, then, duh? If you are talking about Chidols, they would be sold in the gravure section, with the other gravure videos, which are usually next to porn sections.

Cosplay porn is a huge industry coming out of Japan. Men will spend hundreds of dollars on cosplay pornographic films to see their favorite anime character having sex in real form.

Yes, cosplay porn exists. So what?

There's a lot, a LOT of children dressed up as popular anime children (Nezuko Kamado is one of the recent popular children) and filmed doing provocative shit like I talked about above.

If its a Chidol video, its not explicit. If its actual child porn, then its illegal under Japanese law. Either way, that's not really here nor there. Real life pedophiles are a thing, but that has no bearing on lolicon/shotacon itself. Children can be made to dress up in a character from a non-pornographic work, like Sailor Mini-Moon or even Sailor Moon herself, and do pornographic things. Its irrelevant to the point of the thread.

One webpage selling some .avis had literal children holding Bad Dragon wolf dildos. They had those little nekomimi ears and tails.

As you said, this was before the ban on child porn. And it was a situation involving real life children. Its not really relevant to this thread.

When you jerk off to this shit, you wish it were real. You want it to be real. If you could have your fav loli in living flesh, you would take her.

That's an assumption you are making. I don't blame for your disgust as Chidols or the things you've seen. But you are taking that disgust with real life exploitation of children and projecting it onto cartoon characters.

We know you would rape that little girl if she existed in real life. The loli may not be real but your dick is real and your desire is real and your fantasies leave you longing for something more than just your hand. You wish it were more than the fleshlight. You can touch her figurine as much as you want but it's not the same as her warm flesh that remains out of your reach due to it being 2d. I know a segment of the kigurumi population dress as loli to have sex with each other or will put their loli kigurumi mask on a sex doll and have sex with that. They want it to be real. If you put a kigurumi mask on a real child I'm certain most loliphiles would rape that child if given the chance.

I think you need to step back and take a breath for a minute. You are way too emotionally invested in this. Nobody in here expressed personal interest in loli, so there's no need to take things so personally and make this a personal call out. I honestly think you need to step back from the thread and breathe.

 

[Enig]

Lolicons are pedos and I have made a fun game out of reminding people looking at porn of the girls from Pokemon what their ingame ages are to observe the spastic tailspin that follows.

 

[Ly Erg]

How the fuck is this thread over 60 pages. One of the biggest threads on this board and it's literally just debating back and forth that drawn children having sex is or isn't pedo shit.

Kiwi farmers man. Autism supreme in this thread.

 

[Tad Loaf]

You made the assertion, via meme, that everyone who is against Lolicon is a closeted pedophile