Should man listen to other men who are non-heterosexual on topics like masculinity? - Why do men listen to men who are suspected to have androphilic tendencies about masculinity?

Noir drag freak

kiwifarms.net
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Dec 27, 2020
This thread is inspired by my own favorite lolcow, Jack Donovan. Before there was BAP or Nick J Fuentes, there was Jack Donovan. He wrote a series of books that are said to one of the pillars of the manosphere. Most of his work is in a similar vein to that of BAP's. So my question is why do men follow men who tend to be sorta of funny?
What benefit do they gain from doing so? Can men learn to be men from men who have those tendencies?


Why would let men let a guy who wrote the quote below dictate masculinity?
Jack Donovan said:
Yeah, I've been a top for years. I basically fuck men like they are women -- but I'm glad that they're not. I'm banging this jacked rich liberal right now. Probably the best piece of ass I've ever had. I've had sex with women, but I've been with one guy for 14 years, so there is no question of...switching teams...in any meaningful way. He's a good guy who supports me and my work and always has. I have a dude on the side, but it's all on the level, and betraying Lucio -- who became blood-brothers with me for my second book, and has my initials tattooed (by me) on his arm -- because I decided to "explore other ideas for philosophical reasons" would be the homo version of "Eat, Pray Love."

As far at The Way of Men is concerned: It's either right or it isn't. A lot of the ideas came from conversations with my straight friends about their frustrations with their lives. It's not about me "converting" people. Let's be real. I'm a jacked tattooed guy who is more or less a skinhead. Do you for a moment think I can't get laid? The reality is I can post a pic to a hookup app and have someone blowing me inside of 3 hours. I'll be able to pull prime ass from dudes with daddy issues for the next 10 years.
source : https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Jack_Donovan__The_Way_of_Men/5-1934515/
 
Flip this one on its head for a moment.

Can a lesbian be feminine? Or can a lesbian still be a desierable or positive model of some feminine attributes? You can certainly get dykes who make the average man look like a delicate pansy, but you can also get the "Lipsticks" who are more girly than the average girl. Similarly, the fittest most gym active men I've met haven't been straight men; they've been gay because they know first and foremost men judge on apperances and they prepare for that in ways others do not.

Because at a certain level, a man is a man and a woman is a woman. Many gay men tend to "perform" gender because unlike women, who while they often have greater capacity to appreciate qualities other than apperance as primary attributes (job security, amiability, persoanlity etc) men are very visual creatures. Similarly, for as much as Tumblr might cry about it, you'll see a far wider array of personal presentation among gay women than you ever will among gay men; because there are things women prize that men do not as much and the other way around is true.

In some ways, while I might not rush to ask some gay men for ideas how to impress a girl, considering some of them have never tried to impress a girl, they do have an understanding of what men like and what men want. Women have this too from experimentation, but gay men have direct experience from what male attributes they find positive as well as those in themselves that others have liked as well.

I might not ask lesbians for pro tips on motherhood if she hadn't got children, but I would nonetheless consider her a viable source on the concerns of women, what sort of personality traits make a good woman, what sort of skills and abilities help a woman do well and life and which of these she desires to see in other women.

There may be some differences between what a lesbian wants and a straight man wants in the ideal women, sexual preference aside, but you'll find there is an awful lot of overlap as well. I've found that even if they dont engage in it themselves, gay men tend to be far more perceptive of how male behaviour is percived than others for good or ill.

Even if you don't agree with their take, individual experience can vary a lot, it's usually worth drawing from multiple opinions.
 
The hard truth (heh), at least for some of the sad little homophobes here on The Farms, is that straight men are mostly useless fucking tools at the best of times, and actively undermine civilization at their worst. White, black, red, doesn't really matter. Most straight dudes I know don't even know how to change their own fucking oil. Half of you reading that sentence don't even know what it means. When I told a dude who reports to me that I had to replaces my hot water heater over a weekend, he acted like I was referring to some arcane ritual of which he had not even the capacity to fully comprehend, much less ever consider attempting himself. This motherfucker served in the goddamn armed forces.

I'm gay as fuck, and a whole lot of you straight boys could learn a thing or three about self-sufficiency - much less how to turn a screw or swing a hammer - so yeah, I'm gonna go with modern "men" need all the help they can get. The source of that help hardly matters - beggars, after all, can't be choosers.
 
You really don't need advice on how to be a man. It's not that complicated. If your father or grandfather didn't teach you that shit, or if you were raised by a single mother then you're fucked anyway, because it's not about the decisions you make. It's about the habits you've formed.
 
The hard truth (heh), at least for some of the sad little homophobes here on The Farms, is that straight men are mostly useless fucking tools at the best of times, and actively undermine civilization at their worst. White, black, red, doesn't really matter. Most straight dudes I know don't even know how to change their own fucking oil. Half of you reading that sentence don't even know what it means. When I told a dude who reports to me that I had to replaces my hot water heater over a weekend, he acted like I was referring to some arcane ritual of which he had not even the capacity to fully comprehend, much less ever consider attempting himself. This motherfucker served in the goddamn armed forces.

I'm gay as fuck, and a whole lot of you straight boys could learn a thing or three about self-sufficiency - much less how to turn a screw or swing a hammer - so yeah, I'm gonna go with modern "men" need all the help they can get. The source of that help hardly matters - beggars, after all, can't be choosers.
Self sufficiency and self reliance have been completely undermined and even demonized in some respects. Those two values don’t generate enough money for others to be valued.

Either way, I think it’s a bit odd to look to any one person to learn “how to be a man” or “how to a woman.”

Most of the shit is very obvious. Take care of your health, develop a system of ethics and stick to it, improve your grit, be useful by learning new skills, take reasonable risks, and be reasonably brave when the need arises. Men have the additional requirement to be strong enough for defense and hunting, as usually the use for males historically. Women have the additional requirement of child rearing & fostering a healthy, productive home for children.

Though defense & hunting have been reduced largely while child rearing hasnt, it doesn’t mean that strength/bravery is no longer an important trait. It is very undervalued but still of great importance.Women and children need men to be strong, reliable, useful, and possess a good grasp on morality. Otherwise your home will be sick or country will be enslaved.

These things take a lot time - and should be drawing from a lot of different people to learn “how to be a man.” Philosophers, history, your handy neighbor, your dad, leaders, coworkers… regardless if they’re perfect men all the time or even gay is moot. They typically have one thing they can teach you to improve yourself either way. Although, you probably won’t learn much from a limp wristed straight guy who lives online and doesn’t know the difference between dish detergent and dish soap.

Notice none of these things involve sex explicitly. Masculinity shouldn’t and doesn’t hinge on fucking women or fucking lots of women. If a man is trying to sell you a book on masculinity and drones about the importance of fucking women, he’s probably not someone who’s advice is particularly beneficial.

But, as a not man myself, I don’t fucking know. I get all my expectations of men from Hallmark Christmas special movies.
 
Either way, I think it’s a bit odd to look to any one person to learn “how to be a man” or “how to a woman.”

This right here. Can't be said enough. The root of identity politics/ideology, including all the tranny nonsense, is that ppl think they need to be told how to be. Motherfucker, you just are. That's all any of us have to start with. Figure out how to make the you you are work. Much as I despise modern christianity, the Bible has at least one valuable piece of advice to start you out: Do unto other as you would have them do unto you. Build from there. Stop whining and try to be useful, or at minimum, self sufficient.
 
The hard truth (heh), at least for some of the sad little homophobes here on The Farms, is that straight men are mostly useless fucking tools at the best of times, and actively undermine civilization at their worst. White, black, red, doesn't really matter. Most straight dudes I know don't even know how to change their own fucking oil. Half of you reading that sentence don't even know what it means. When I told a dude who reports to me that I had to replaces my hot water heater over a weekend, he acted like I was referring to some arcane ritual of which he had not even the capacity to fully comprehend, much less ever consider attempting himself. This motherfucker served in the goddamn armed forces.

I'm gay as fuck, and a whole lot of you straight boys could learn a thing or three about self-sufficiency - much less how to turn a screw or swing a hammer - so yeah, I'm gonna go with modern "men" need all the help they can get. The source of that help hardly matters - beggars, after all, can't be choosers.

>schizo rant about straighties bad
>"I'm gay as fuck"

Yea we could tell. Thanks for the example of why we shouldn't listen to fags at all, never mind on specific topics.
 
This right here. Can't be said enough. The root of identity politics/ideology, including all the tranny nonsense, is that ppl think they need to be told how to be. Motherfucker, you just are. That's all any of us have to start with. Figure out how to make the you you are work. Much as I despise modern christianity, the Bible has at least one valuable piece of advice to start you out: Do unto other as you would have them do unto you. Build from there. Stop whining and try to be useful, or at minimum, self sufficient.
It’s a crisis gripping every generation. I don’t know how we can give people a sense of identity. I don’t think religion will make a come back. I don’t think being proud of your region, town, nation, race whatever - will be making a permanent reappearance. You can’t even have an identity in being a man or a woman without having some gender identity shit shoved in your face and confusing you. You can’t identify with a profession - long gone are the days of training to be a shoe maker or blacksmith all your life. You can’t have an identity with your family - most families are scattered around or broken now.

We’ve all become so isolated, disconnected, and genuinely lost in who and what we are to the core.

You can fix it for yourself with a lot of hard work. But - on the bigger scale? I don’t think this is a cultural problem that can be fixed. I think a lot of really fucked up ideologies are going to begin arising to fill the identity void from here on out. Woke/Pride/IdPol is just the first version.

Every “solution” I’ve seen starts with the individual. Most individuals are really fucking stupid and drenched in convenience and short cuts. They need something easy given to them. So to me those aren’t viable solutions.

How to be a man usually starts with how to be the best human you can be. If you’re a “man” and the best human you are, then congratulations. You’re a good man, too.
 
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You can’t identify with a profession - long gone are the days of training to be a shoe maker or blacksmith all your life
Lol what? There's lots of well-paid trades that take a long time to master and they're crying for fresh help. The issues are that they're hard, you have to wake up early and mommy's not there to hold your hand. Also, people don't know how to be content with their lot in life or take pride in something like a mere trade.

So it's not that we can't do it, most of us just won't do it.
 
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