Should the guy pay for everything on a date?

[Stratovorious]

Paying for the other person on a first date makes any ensuing sex feel an awful lot like prostitution, IMO.

If that's your thing, just cut out the middleman and hire an escort. It's more time efficient.

 

[Coldgrip]

See, I wouldn't mind if she paid for some things, but taking her to the hardware store to pick out that duct-tape and rope I'm going to use when I kidnap her just isn't a wise decision.

 

[obliviousbeard]

As a sophisticated and busy man I expect woman to pay for my meal and taxi, plus compensate me for my time, of course. Fucking roasties never want to do that for some reason, no matter how many livestreams I hold about the subject.

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

But if a guy insists on paying for an expensive dinner, and wants to even just make out, I feel like there’s no leeway to turn him down without looking mean.

Ugh... that's gross. Do you find guys have that expectation, or do you feel like it's more something you put on yourself?

Yes.
Women should pretend to make the offer, but if the dude let's you pay anything on a first date, it isn't a date and you aren't someone he is sexually interested in.

One of the great sociological misconceptions of the modern age is that the divorce rate in the country is do to a lack of moral cohesion in the country. The actual reason, studied and written about extensively but never reported on, is that women, on the whole, make more money than men. And it turns out that women who earn more than their husbands file for divorce 3 times as often as the reverse.

3rd wave feminism may have severely warped the relationship between men and women, but biological evolution still demands that men be providers.

Lol calm down grandma. What shitty christian blog did you pull this crap from? I'm just gonna throw out a big ol' CITATION NEEDED and also it's due, not do, it's lets, not let's.

What claims are you even making here? Women on the whole make more money than men, according to... what? I have never heard such a claim, the closest I can think of is a study that showed single women tended to earn just a tiny bit more (within the margin of error, i believe) than single men due to having more education on average.

Then, you claim that women who make more money than their husband file for divorce three times more often than the reverse. The reverse? Meaning men who make more money than their wives are 1/3 as likely to file for divorce? How is that relevant to anything?

 

[Nazi vegeta]

I've never been on a date tbh

Put some nail polish on and we're gonna change that in an heartbeat, sweets.

 

[AJ 447]

Yes.

Women should pretend to make the offer, but if the dude let's you pay anything on a first date, it isn't a date and you aren't someone he is sexually interested in.

One of the great sociological misconceptions of the modern age is that the divorce rate in the country is do to a lack of moral cohesion in the country. The actual reason, studied and written about extensively but never reported on, is that women, on the whole, make more money than men. And it turns out that women who earn more than their husbands file for divorce 3 times as often as the reverse.

3rd wave feminism may have severely warped the relationship between men and women, but biological evolution still demands that men be providers.

https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/womens-earnings/2016/pdf/home.pdf

 

[Trasha Pay That A$$]

I'm gonna go with the flow on this one and say the instigator of the date should pay, at least the first time.

The old fashioned thing where the dude buys dinner and then depending on how expensive it was the woman owes him some amount of sexual favors, but it's all unspoken, just seems like a weird form of sexual bartering that I'd prefer not to get involved in.

But then women are kinda taught that they can't "Give it away for nothing" so the transactional nature of sex is unfortunately built into our society.

Actually I'd love to hear from some woman kiwis on their own impression of that, I wonder how widespread and how explicit that idea is. I only hear what I hear from women, and observe the limited bits of behavior I see, but I imagine women are much more conscious of this.

Like, do women feel that "giving it away" too easily in a relationship will hurt the future prospects of that relationship?
Are women conditioned to use sex as a bartering tool consciously by anyone, or is it more something that is picked up by society? Or is it just because men usually want sex more than women? Or do you reject the entire notion that women in our society use sex for bartering?
Are women more worried about being judged as a "slut" by men, other women, or does it not matter who it is doing the judging?

For example, as a man, if I were still dating, I would want to have sex as soon as the woman wanted to. I wouldn't be worried that this would adversely affect the relationship (I'd consider it a positive move for the relationship). If the woman hinted at the idea of sex as a reward for spending money on her, it would bother me, as I'd feel the relationship were cheapened, and the woman was not as interested in me as she was in what she could get from me. I would not in any way think less of the woman if she wanted to have sex right away, I wouldn't spend a moment of thought on her being a "slut" for wanting sex as much as I do.

The opinion that a woman is a slut for having sex early on implies that the woman doesn't get anything out of it. Sex isn't usually just for the man and if the guy acts like that, it's time to ditch him. It shouldn't come just as a result of the man dropping a bunch of cash on a date either as that does enter prostitute territory.

 

[PorcupineTree]

Ugh... that's gross. Do you find guys have that expectation, or do you feel like it's more something you put on yourself?

It's definitely something I mostly put on myself due to the simple fact that I'm receiving something without the opportunity to give back in return. This never deters me from saying no, but it doesn't prevent guilt or an uncomfortable situation.

All the guys I've dated have been nothing but polite, but I wonder how deliberate this emotional leverage is. In my experience, guys who insisted on paying for things were also more assertive about initiating physical contact.

 

[Nazi vegeta]

It's definitely something I mostly put on myself due to the simple fact that I'm receiving something without the opportunity to give back in return. This never deters me from saying no, but it doesn't prevent guilt or an uncomfortable situation.

All the guys I've dated have been nothing but polite, but I wonder how deliberate this emotional leverage is. In my experience, guys who insisted on paying for things were also more assertive about initiating physical contact.

You shouldnt feel bad.
They invited you out, they should pay. If you really want you can ask them to split but, if they refuse dont fret over it.

 

[Dolphin Lundgren]

I'm gonna go with the flow on this one and say the instigator of the date should pay, at least the first time.

The old fashioned thing where the dude buys dinner and then depending on how expensive it was the woman owes him some amount of sexual favors, but it's all unspoken, just seems like a weird form of sexual bartering that I'd prefer not to get involved in.

But then women are kinda taught that they can't "Give it away for nothing" so the transactional nature of sex is unfortunately built into our society.

Actually I'd love to hear from some woman kiwis on their own impression of that, I wonder how widespread and how explicit that idea is. I only hear what I hear from women, and observe the limited bits of behavior I see, but I imagine women are much more conscious of this.

Like, do women feel that "giving it away" too easily in a relationship will hurt the future prospects of that relationship?
Are women conditioned to use sex as a bartering tool consciously by anyone, or is it more something that is picked up by society? Or is it just because men usually want sex more than women? Or do you reject the entire notion that women in our society use sex for bartering?
Are women more worried about being judged as a "slut" by men, other women, or does it not matter who it is doing the judging?

For example, as a man, if I were still dating, I would want to have sex as soon as the woman wanted to. I wouldn't be worried that this would adversely affect the relationship (I'd consider it a positive move for the relationship). If the woman hinted at the idea of sex as a reward for spending money on her, it would bother me, as I'd feel the relationship were cheapened, and the woman was not as interested in me as she was in what she could get from me. I would not in any way think less of the woman if she wanted to have sex right away, I wouldn't spend a moment of thought on her being a "slut" for wanting sex as much as I do.

I never felt like I owed sex just because the man I was on a date with paid for something. If I wanted a second date I'd just be like- okay, I'll pay for the date next time. If I like the person I'd do it without thinking "well, he paid for the dinner so I may as well do it." I've never known other women who felt obligated, and they'd do it because of casual sex or attraction. However, there are women who do it as a pay back and I can't pretend they don't exist.

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

It's definitely something I mostly put on myself due to the simple fact that I'm receiving something without the opportunity to give back in return. This never deters me from saying no, but it doesn't prevent guilt or an uncomfortable situation.

All the guys I've dated have been nothing but polite, but I wonder how deliberate this emotional leverage is. In my experience, guys who insisted on paying for things were also more assertive about initiating physical contact.

Yeah, in my (extremely limited) experience, women seem to feel guiltier about... well everything. That's not to say they're any less selfish than men, but they seem to feel guiltier about every choice on the way. They also seem to resent that guilt. Obviously everything in this paragraph is just my own assumptions based on my own observation of women's behavior, along with what I've been told by various women.

As far as how deliberate the leverage is, there's a lot of complicating factors. A more "traditional" guy may feel like he should pay for stuff, but also might feel more comfortable initiating things because that's the "traditional" men's role. So there it's not really intentional, it's more of a common cause. But I've definitely met the dudes who think by paying for things they're making the woman feel like they owe them something. It's shitty behavior, just another form of manipulation.

Luckily for me, my dating career was short and I came out of it disease free. All the "traditional man" stuff was on my mind, and I think on the women's minds as well. It's weird, because there's a big set of assumptions based on "tradition", but there's a big pile of contradictions that goes with it. And you just don't know which assumptions and which contradictions any given person will have. In fact, most people have both. So if I don't hold a door, or pay for a meal, or something, I'm unchivalrous and rude, but if I do those things then I'm a chauvanist. And I have to imagine both scenarios are in the woman's head too.

Don't even get me started on initiating physical contact. I came out feeling like both a total loser who couldn't make a move, and a big creep for trying to make a move. I wasn't trying to trick the girls, or force anything, but it seemed like they might be waiting on me. Or they might not have been interested. It's not an easy situation to read for men either, even when they're trying to be completely respectful. And some men obviously are not completely respectful.

So I imagine women feel the same way, a lot of these interactions feel like lose/lose propositions. There's the way things are "supposed to be done" and there's also the reasons why the way things are "supposed to be done" are backwards and outdated.