Should we have freedom of speech or censorship on certain topics - With Norbert the tiger as a cohost

That is precisely my point. The vision Mills and others had about the Marketplace of Ideas, that all people or even most people make reasoned decisions based on reason and logic has been proven false. It is not just a question of what bad ideas have gained prominence in "muh marketplace of ideas," one can really struggle to find when the best ideas--the best art, the best literature, the best music--actually prevails.
No that is the opposite of your point. Your point is that in present time we have truly bad ideas succeeding because of lack of censorship. But we aren't lacking in censorship. The bad ideas are being propped up using censorship. This is because censorship is not a means to maintain morality, or good ideas, or good governance. It's a means to maintain power, specifically the power of large scale institutions.

It's also not that difficult to find where good art, literature, and music prevails. You can draw a very fine line over the past forty or so years as censorship in the west increases and the quality of media declines.
 
this post by @trash cat has been scarcely addressed at all
Cause it's boring.
ebul deep state government der juden "boil water to create steam" oligarchy soros backed NGO stuff is just stale.
Media consolidation is also not a new thing, the Gilded Age had the exact same thing with Morning Post vs Yellow Press malarky, in ye olde engelund we had the occasional gang war between criers.
Again, boring, because it's all been gone over before. Where is the truly deeep thought?
 
In real life? Depends. Online? Almost never. Freedom of speech on the internet is almost impossible to do because the internet is a cesspit, and allowing people to truly say whatever they want opens the floodgates to every dipshit, whack-job and pedophile out there to come in and take a big shit on whatever place they make an account on. Null gave up on freedom of speech years ago because even he realized how naive the idea is.
 
Progressives are OK with limiting the rights rightoids (allegedly) have, if it's for a "good" purpose, i.e. helping dindus "integrate".
This is why you should always make sure that progressives are forced to work with dindus and live with dindus too.
Sticking civilized liberal people in the middle of a group of savages inevitably results in the civilized people becoming more and more conservative.
 
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Censorship (barring objective obscenity) at its core is an inherently repugnant tool used only by the evil and power hungry for their goals. I do not need to feed you hypotheticals or try to give you a view into a dark future where this is what will happen if censorship is utilized, we already live in that reality, that future is NOW. The argument of trying to suppress "unacceptable" and "vile" ideals taken at face value is a falsehood, A quote from spunt
*Nick Griffin, the BNP's then-leader (who is fat and who I would not have sex with), appeared on BBC national political debate show "Question Time" in 2009 despite howls of protest from the usual suspects about not "platforming" him. He made such a complete fool of himself (top quote - "Yes I did share a stage with the Grand Wizard of the KKK but he was totally non-violent") that the BNP died overnight, disappearing entirely a couple of years later when they forgot to renew their registration paperwork. The fact that this incident clearly demonstrated the folly of "no platform" policies for extremists and provided unequivocal proof that sunlight is indeed the best disinfectant, has of course been memory-holed.
If an ideal is really utterly vile and unacceptable then just by allowing itself to be exposed and judged by the masses would result in its own destruction. If you want another fine example take a look at the fuck fuck circus that was unite the right in Charlottesville, the far rights own actions did a damn fine job of discrediting themselves in the eyes of the masses with that stunt. If it really is a dangerous ideal then dont expect it to gain popular support on its own.

Now let's look at the other side, assuming benevolent intentions the threat of whatever force is moderating and censoring discussion falling victim to ideological dogma and abusing it's power on what it sees as a moral crusade of righteousness simply returns to fanaticism and being high on your own ideological supply. The ability to disagree and dissent becomes impossible and no counter balance results in blatant retardation. If you want an example take a gander at the bread tube thread for a collection of dolts who had a lot of dissenting voices against their inane leftist ideals suppressed (it should be noted Google started adjusting the algorithm to promote their content to counter balance the grift fest that was the alt right/far right)

That was assuming good actors, if you were to believe the people pulling the strings from the top of business to politics to bureaucrats would be largely capable of not abusing this power, well such naive assumptions are hilarious to see. The Twitter files being a prime example of information control, the ADL head going ripshit over tiktok in that leaked phone call, hell even here the likes of kefflas and Liz fong dong trying to censor the web to cover up their crimes, (thanks to dear sneeder this place survived what should have been an unwinnable assault). Tell me, would you be willing to hand the keys of speech moderation to the likes of the aforementioned vampires? Because you may as well be as absolute power doesn't corrupt absolutely, absolute power attracts absolutely corrupt people willing to use it to their own ends.

In OPs example of censorship in the EU it's being used as a cudgel to suppress natural political shifting and transitions to new ideas to overcome the problems at hands. This is normal for a democracy. People, problems, and ideals change over time. Call it ideological dogma seeing any questioning of mass migration or handing power the the bureaucrats of Brussels as being literally Hitler or see it or see it as outright abuse to facilitate the great replacement by ivory tower academic's twisted ideals or big business lust for scab labour or the bureaucrats of Brussels try to solidify their power, at the end of the day having censorship tools at all permits their abuse.

Another prime example of this abuse of information control is the shitfest that was all the events of the pandemic years, I need not say more.

By being able to speak up and dissent dogmatic bubbles can be eliminated, retarded & hostile ideals can be dragged out into the light to be ridiculed, and the crimes of the powerful and corrupt can be exposed. Any degree of control of information and speech barring absolute objective extremes is permitting the populace to being branded as niggercattle to be fed a slurry of manufactured consensus while the ranchers commit their crimes and atrocities with impunity. Censorship brings nothing good to this world and any positive view of it is built on naive delusional or the dreams of the power hungry.
 
It did. Insidious elements in German society were expunged, with an incredibly strong political mandate behind it. And then everything fell apart.
Could you elaborate on this point? Only 25 years of serious political significance with a congruent 12 years of official rule is awfully short for a new government. Why did everything fall apart so quickly and why is that an example of censorship succeeding?
 
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Because who dictates what’s good? If I’m dictating what’s good then ok. If my enemies are then not
That's moral relativism. "Good" and "bad" exist as clear concepts, like the aforementioned monkey torture stuff. It's a victimless crime since monkeys have no human rights, but it's a disgusting act committed and enjoyed by depraved individuals. Or even child porn--while there is a victim in its creation, can we really say anyone is harmed by someone privately looking at CP someone else produced? If we acknowledge that good and evil exists, we can say that looking at monkey torture or CP is an evil act. But if we think free speech is an absolute value, then we think looking at monkey torture or CP is a human right i.e. we're in libertarian land.

Likewise, we can restrict or forbid literature advocating "bad" ideologies like communism or transgenderism on that basis. The literature is intended to facilitate and promote evil, if not convert people to its cause. Same thing with pretty much any pornography not depicting healthy, normal sex acts, since that sort of porn has verifiably encouraged people to copy demeaning and perverse sex acts like BDSM and "eating ass" (and all the disease and injury consequences) and is a gateway drug into all sorts of even more disgusting fetish porn and transgenderism.
Emphasis on "tried" to, there is no none time travelling scenario where the European powers pull of an invasion of Japan during the Sengoku Period, none, nevermind the practicality concerns (the anglos gave up on it for a reason) we may as well be considering Prester John unironically and non-Ethiopianly.
Japan was richer and more populous than Cambodia (bigger market to sell goods) and already had powerful pro-European feudal lords (just like Mexico and the Tlaxcalans!). There's no "practicality concern" when it's something well within their capability. We can also observe that forbidding Christianity helped ensure internal peace because there were no repeats of the Shimabara rebellion or Christian daimyo conspiring against the Shogunate. The Tokugawa Shogunate enjoyed almost 250 years of internal peace and no serious conflicts which is downright astonishing, especially in premodern times--surely that's a positive virtue of censorship when the Shogun can stop subversive ideologies be it Christianity or some other ideology that might encourage rebellions.
The Mongols are a great example because they're one of the few times an external power has tried to interfere in Japanese territorial integrity and show the direct result of that; unity. Because Japan at the time despite appearances was a nation with a civilisation and that's what those things do when confronted with hostile external force, all coming back to my original point about it being a politics things and therefore gay and not a "higher power" belief in rights issue.
It's all about "unity" until some general realizes they're getting screwed over by the government and decides to join the invader. Just like what happened in Persia, Russia, China (both Chinese states), Vietnam (even though they lost in the end), and all the way back to Genghis Khan beating up some other tribe. That's what people do when confronted by a hostile external force who is winning, just like how there's been videos for months of Ukrainian soldiers and even low-ranking officers switching allegiance to Russia.
attempting to censor in this environment just draws attention to the stuff you're trying to censor. china has an entire state apparatus attempting to control the flow of information and it fails pretty miserably, for example. which i think they're starting to understand. much easier to just lock up dissidents for their speech than attempt to stop them from speaking.
How has it failed? It's worked perfectly because there is no actual opposition to the CCP. Most Chinese have no idea what the Tiananmen Square massacre was other than it was "just a protest against the government where people on both sides made mistakes." Actual opposition to the CCP within China barely exists.

If China isn't doing censorship right, it's that they don't just let wrongthinkers shout into the void like pre-Elon Twitter did via shadowbans and algorithm deboosts. I find the Western censorship apparatus deployed during the scamdemic probably the single best in history.
Could you elaborate on this point? Only 25 years of serious political significance with a congruent 12 years of official rule is awfully short for a new government. Why did everything fall apart so quickly and why is that an example of censorship succeeding?
The point is that LGBTBBQ and especially troon ideology vanished from Germany for decades. To this day there are leftists online regretting what the Nazis did to Magnus Hirschfeld, an advocate of homosexuality, transgenderism, and pedophilia who was right up there with the worst Nazi doctors in terms of the disgusting "studies" he performed.

Other Nazi programs against degenerate art and smoking or raising the birthrate succeeded as well during those 12 years, but were a lot easier to get reversed under the pretext of "the Nazis supported it therefore it's bad." That argument was not accepted regarding LGBTBBQ stuff, with the sole exception of communists legalizing sodomy in East Germany in the 1950s (it was not legal in West Germany until 1969 when like everywhere else, communist subversion made them legalize it). And that was it--no gay marriage in East Germany, no troon ideology in East Germany, and East Germany didn't even promote homosexuality like the modern West since communist regimes mostly regarded homosexuality as something abherrant and not to be promoted.
 
How has it failed? It's worked perfectly because there is no actual opposition to the CCP.

there is no actual opposition to the ccp because the ccp wields power effectively and, despite what you might want to believe, has actually improved the lives of hundreds of millions of people over there. china has lifted 800 million people out of extreme poverty in the last four decades, which accounts for 75% of the global reduction in poverty during the same period.

Most Chinese have no idea what the Tiananmen Square massacre was other than it was "just a protest against the government where people on both sides made mistakes." Actual opposition to the CCP within China barely exists.

this is why i mentioned the internet. yeah, 20 years ago it was easy to keep that information hidden. nowadays students share that information pretty readily. the official party line is that it was a protest where both sides make mistakes, but that's not the conversation on the street.

If China isn't doing censorship right, it's that they don't just let wrongthinkers shout into the void like pre-Elon Twitter did via shadowbans and algorithm deboosts.

yeah, i think i was viewing the term "censorship" too narrowly. i was thinking strictly in terms of limiting information flow. silencing dissidents still counts as censorship and can be effective
 
Japan was richer and more populous than Cambodia (bigger market to sell goods) and already had powerful pro-European feudal lords (just like Mexico and the Tlaxcalans!). There's no "practicality concern" when it's something well within their capability. We can also observe that forbidding Christianity helped ensure internal peace because there were no repeats of the Shimabara rebellion or Christian daimyo conspiring against the Shogunate. The Tokugawa Shogunate enjoyed almost 250 years of internal peace and no serious conflicts which is downright astonishing, especially in premodern times--surely that's a positive virtue of censorship when the Shogun can stop subversive ideologies be it Christianity or some other ideology that might encourage rebellions.
Capability is what is at contention here, for a similar scenario examine the prospect for a Turkish conquest of Malacca at around the same time, they had pro-porte lords in their merchant's pockets and their religion was spreading creating conflict and the like. In contrast to Japan's unprecedented harmony (I agree sakoku is extremely underrated) the East Indies stayed stuck in a warring states situation till the Dutch put an end to it centuries later.
This was because there was no potential for peace because there was no unity, Majapahit was the last real attempt and that polity was such a failure it wasn't remembered at all till European archaeologists started digging up their remnants, they were ripe for external forces to set division upon them. Japan on the other hand had a lineage of (allegedly but people believe in it so good enough) unbroken government going back millennia.
Such ideologically mighty leviathans do not go down easily which is why Japan never did, too much an unmoved mover for even matchlocks and tobacco to get rolling. It's this national fortitude I believe which is what enabled this as opposed to the virtue of burning books and burying scholars however, because Christianity was never the danger against the established order it was ultimately treated as.
Just look at the causes of those "Christian" rebellions, lots of ronin, lots of discontented daimyo, a whole lot of warring states bullshit.
It's all about "unity" until some general realizes they're getting screwed over by the government and decides to join the invader. Just like what happened in Persia, Russia, China (both Chinese states), Vietnam (even though they lost in the end), and all the way back to Genghis Khan beating up some other tribe. That's what people do when confronted by a hostile external force who is winning, just like how there's been videos for months of Ukrainian soldiers and even low-ranking officers switching allegiance to Russia.
For every tale of a fair weather friend there's a do-or-die true believer, and it goes both ways. There's countless examples in historical warfare where people just don't give up for whatever reason, one that jumps out at me would be the German states resistance against Napoleonic France. But they surrendered? Yeah like 3 different times and the Confederation of the Rhine was around and he even married the Emperor's daughter too but the unity of the enemy was never truly defeated which why it always recombined in the end.
 
Freedom of speech does not include the person creating a loss to another - all crime really is theft if you think about it. If you abuse a child you deprive them of bodily safety. If you directly say ‘hey guys let’s go kill person x who lives at x street xville on Wednesday at this time’ you create a threat to life. We already have laws to deal with all those things. Defamation needs loss too I think (?) that’s the line as it’s been drawn for a long time. Your freedoms end where mine are.
the niggers criminals do all this anyway when it was granted as free speech by god to everyone regardless
nah the original free speechers said naturally to kill the evil niggers who want to eat and molest everyone
and they got into fights about it and sometimes people would be fucked up and die
whatever the niggers and the muslims and the cartels kill and rape people anyway just to say hello in the morning

the kikes talk about peace but they just want slaves for some bullshit drama machine until society collapses
then they will go onto whatever other coal mine they can find to fuel their stupid crap
they are like a fox who kills five pheasants and eats only one
 
If free speech is the most powerful thing in the universe and can overthrow governments, you should probably respect it a little more when your enemies use it to undermine society and eventually destroy everyone else's speech.
 
In real life? Depends. Online? Almost never. Freedom of speech on the internet is almost impossible to do because the internet is a cesspit, and allowing people to truly say whatever they want opens the floodgates to every dipshit, whack-job and pedophile out there to come in and take a big shit on whatever place they make an account on. Null gave up on freedom of speech years ago because even he realized how naive the idea is.

This is pretty accurate for the Internet. There is a really cringe contingent of people who say they are "freeze peach absolootists" and think you should be able to just go anywhere and spam whatever bullshit you want. In practice, letting anyone freely join an online space and do anything means allowing activity which is similar to the heckler's veto IRL (i.e. showing up to an event and screaming over everyone constantly to drown out their speech). Null found this out when his attempt at freeze peach led to pedophiles spamming child porn stuff until the premise became untenable.

Luckily I think this stupid attitude is receding as threat perception continues to increase and more people begin to understand and adopt the friend/enemy distinction.

Politics is war, everything is a weapon, speech is no exception. The correct stance is to restrict your enemy's speech as much as possible and vice versa. So me for instance, I generally favor anyone and anything currently left of center to be banned out of existence as much as can be done. This does mean recognizing that censorship can sometimes be counter-productive. If trying to censor something will just produce a Streisand effect, then maybe you ignore it and let it be. But there are undoubtedly times where censorship is effective and in those times it should be wielded to hurt enemies and help friends. Simple as.
 
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I don't have anything deep to say about this subject, but I will say this: Usually the ones who yell the loudest to end free speech are also the first ones to beg for it back. It doesn't matter what side they're on either. Free speech is only problematic for people who don't like being told they're wrong, having their feelings hurt, or just being exposed to things they don't like.
 
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