"Smart" Cars

[Cristobal’s Colon]

How much longer until we are forced to abandon fossil fuels? Tesla has proven electric motors to be a viable automotive powerplant, though I won't comment on their obvious blunders. It seems to me that the next challenge will be battery safety.

 

[Bassomatic]

How much longer until we are forced to abandon fossil fuels? Tesla has proven electric motors to be a viable automotive powerplant, though I won't comment on their obvious blunders. It seems to me that the next challenge will be battery safety.

Tesla has done no such thing, aside be a fart huffer dream and scam.

Also batteries can bring out a lot of power but it's short term. We all can think of how fast a Tesla at a track cooks it self and runs dry. Towing (and in the case of OTR trucking) you need shit tons of torque all the time, electric can and does give you it, hence Teslas insane 0-60 time. But try driving up mountains over and over, you'll need that 10+ litre diesel with a hulking turbo. Now, in regards to altitude batteries aren't effected like air chugging ICEs but in my example of climbing a hill you still have to drag a load up a steep incline, and that takes umph.

Hybrids are and going to become more and more common all around but elec only isn't going to take off as the sole thing, and I said that as someone who's got a tin foil hat they want to ban the ICE and large motors.

 

[TowinKarz]

My guess is gasoline engine cars continue until petroleum reserves drop to a point where gas gets too expensive for the average person to buy, all that infrastructure it takes to extract, refine and distribute it is still profitable, if not sustainable. That's the make or break point, when gas gets rare enough that it starts hitting ten bucks a gallon? Then you'll see people start to switch, and that'll happen before it actually runs out.

Hybrids and electrics are fighting tradition as much as economy at this point. People tend to want to keep doing what they've been doing until they can't anymore.

Aside from Tesla, other established car makers offer electrics, like the Prius, the Volt or the i3, and they aren't even close to being the top-10 sellers for any marque that produces them. Improvements in computerized engine tuning mean that, again, even economy level cars are competitive with electrics, not as efficient, but most people will accept "70% as good on proven tech you are familiar with."

 

[Bassomatic]

My guess is gasoline engine cars continue until petroleum reserves drop to a point where gas gets too expensive for the average person to buy, all that infrastructure it takes to extract, refine and distribute it is still profitable, if not sustainable. That's the make or break point, when gas gets rare enough that it starts hitting ten bucks a gallon? Then you'll see people start to switch, and that'll happen before it actually runs out.

Hybrids and electrics are fighting tradition as much as economy at this point. People tend to want to keep doing what they've been doing until they can't anymore.

Aside from Tesla, other established car makers offer electrics, like the Prius, the Volt or the i3, and they aren't even close to being the top-10 sellers for any marque that produces them. Improvements in computerized engine tuning mean that, again, even economy level cars are competitive with electrics, not as efficient, but most people will accept "70% as good on proven tech you are familiar with."

Gas is near 10 a gallon in Japan and other countries.
I pick Japan since they are into car culture big time. They also lust over American cars in the way we lust over other market cars. In America, gas prices do cause shifts in buying (buying a car for gas prices is insanely stupid but that's another story)

As for ICE, gas isn't the only option, and with tech getting better and better we keep seeing more reasons or ways to keep it. Sure batteries are getting better too but it's a race I think that if the market was free and fair, we'd see ICE winning by a large margin.

For non car people close your eyes and think diesel motor... it's nothing like that anymore, I assure you. Tesla, Fisker etc helped shake the anemic feel of hybrids and elec cars. Personally I think the hot hatches and rally cars (STi Evo) shook the fear of 4 bangers.

The market is played by bribes, and often hurts us the consumer. Elon and Tesla is one side, GM killing the elec car the other side. CAFE laws, cash for clunkers etc, none of that is the market or consumers. It's all people shady trading cash behind closed doors against our best wills and interests.

 

[TowinKarz]

GM killing the elec car

And yet they offer the Volt.... so which is it? I mean, I'm not a fan of the grand conspiracy to hide the electric car. GM's EV-1 was only ever a pilot program, they never sold any of those cars, they were all leased. It wasn't like it was their number one selling car that suddenly, inexplicably, was pulled off the market.

If they were trying to "kill" the electric car, why do they make one nowadays?

Why do others?

The Honda Insight has sporadically gone in and out of production over the years as demand rises and falls, but it's never come close to selling like the Accord, and it's a car available in Japan indigenously, free from the machinations of US law....

I have issue with CAFE and the C for C programs, but, the "who killed the electric car" talk is up there with the "who hid that carburetor that got 300 miles to the gallon?" , seriously encroaching on conspiracy theory land.

A technologically sound idea can still flop in the market. The pure electric car is still trying to carve out it's place there.


As for heavy trucking, it'd be interesting if they go diesel-electric, like railroad locomotives are. (the "Diesel" in a diesel engine powers a generator, not the wheels, those are driven by electric motors) and the latest-gen locomotives are AC powered, one of the big drawbacks was for years they were DC, which meant (without getting technical) the motors would wear out certain parts just by running and need replacement, AC motors lack that wear part (Commutator brushes)

 

[Bassomatic]

Market changed, a lot. Look at the years we are talking not one day and the next, decades apart. One big part of that was glorious fed bucks. It's far from insane to say, when the market would be shaken up by a tech people/companies stifle it, vs jumping on board when it's a thing. You do know IBM now makes computers? When it used to make type writers. To call that stupid on IBMs part is kinda silly.

The first gen insight suffered the fate of not being cool or a great car. It became a replacement CRX, and race/aftermarket teams bought them all up lol. It's a funny fate. Rip the battery out car was barely a ton, drop in a RSX-S motor and it tore ass.

You are incorrect, to bring a car to the US it has to meet our laws. Or be 25+ years old. That's why minor changes are seen across models sold here and there, even in some cases it's super small like head light shape, rear lights etc.

Edit: in response to your edit. I think trucking will look into hybriding Diesel electric will come along and I look forward to it, it'll be helpful to the trucking industry and shipping cost reductions as well as less emissions is a good thing.

 

[TowinKarz]

You are incorrect, to bring a car to the US it has to meet our laws. Or be 25+ years old. That's why minor changes are seen across models sold here and there, even in some cases it's super small like head light shape, rear lights etc.

I meant it's also available in it's home country, where it doesn't have to meet those DOT laws, and it still doesn't outsell "conventional" cars on it's own turf, IIRC.

They had to put spacer blocks between the springs and body to import the MG sportscars because the DOT said the headlights were too low, and there was no way to raise them without totally redesigning the body. So I get it.

 

[Bassomatic]

I meant it's also available in it's home country, where it doesn't have to meet those DOT laws, and it still doesn't outsell "conventional" cars on it's own turf, IIRC.

Ah ok, I thought you meant something else.

That is correct, what you stated. But there's a lot of factors to that. Japan isn't too huge into hybrids culture wise, and because they never had gibs for hybrids the costs kept many people away. Also people wanting smaller cars either want something sporty, or don't have money. Something like a insight isn't exactly a draw to their culture.

That being said, the first gen insight isn't a bad car once you pull the battery, the second gen is meh frankly it's based on the current civic platform so I'm a bit lost on the whole idea but that's another story.

 

[TowinKarz]

I've only seen pictures of them, and I wasn't too impressed.

Interesting that Japan, on paper, is exactly where an electric car should thrive.... dense population, heavy urbanization, relatively expensive fuel, and people still are kinda "Meh" on it.

Though having a robust public transport infrastructure means you can survive without a car, something that really hasn't existed in America since the end of WW2 when suburban sprawl came about and streecars were seen as quaint and last century relics and anything beyond maybe a bus route just wasn't factored into the planning.

 

[Ravenor]

Can one of the more Car enthusiastic blokes explain something to me in regards to the Tesla model 1?

I have often learned if you let it go flat you have a paper weight that will never work again why is this? I mean it's little more than a laptop attached to a UPS on wheels with a drive train an a few other bit's why is that the case was it just something to do with a deep cycle batter issue causing the cells to become damaged or somthing more complex?

 

[Bassomatic]

I've only seen pictures of them, and I wasn't too impressed.

Interesting that Japan, on paper, is exactly where an electric car should thrive.... dense population, heavy urbanization, relatively expensive fuel, and people still are kinda "Meh" on it.

Though having a robust public transport infrastructure means you can survive without a car, something that really hasn't existed in America since the end of WW2 when suburban sprawl came about and streecars were seen as quaint and last century relics.

Yes the public transit system is a big part of it, so cars are a luxury and people want either the look or reality of being a balla, when you have a show off toy.

Japan also is a fuck ton smaller than the US so I hate the "Japan has bullet trains why don't weeeee" debate, could we do better with public transit? Fuck yes and we should but to pretend we could over night have Japan's system is absurd.

The Japanese idolize American big iron still. Hybrids there currently are how we saw them 10 years ago, a gimmick. Plus "you can't afford gas" fear on a snobby to start buy.

And the economic model if you don't get to save 5-7k on a stripper model with a battery, even at double what the US pays for gas that's a long time to "break even" if you ever do (many hybrid owners never do in the US where we drive a lot more) If I'm buying something to show off, I want the leather seats, and 2k in my pocket more than a battery I don't need and may make me look poor.

Needless to say Toyota is the leader of hybrids no doubt. The Rav4 just out sold the prius as a hybrid in the US last year. They know how to make em, and sell em. They just don't want them themselves.

Can one of the more Car enthusiastic blokes explain something to me in regards to the Tesla model 1?

I have often heard if you let it go flat you have a paper weight that will never work again why is this? I mean it's little more than a laptop attached to a UPS on wheels with a drive train an a few other bit's why is that the case was it just something to do with a deep cycle battery issue causing the cells to become damaged or something more complex?

Because Elon Musk is a fraudster.

There are some battery issues still, but the biggest and most dangerous is the steering issues. As in the entire steering system fails and turns the car off. As we all know Tesla is the hot one popular one but doesn't sell the kind of cars like any other even niche maker.
https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/03/29/tesla-recalls-123k-model-s-sedans-for-power-steering-problem/

123k model S's that's a fuck ton by percentage.

It shows what myself and others have said, including you it's a electronic toy on wheels. Problem is they rush them out and the basic stuff was skipped on because, brakes aren't sexy look at this touch screen. It's an Ipad using last years CPU that still never got working right.

 

[Cristobal’s Colon]

Tesla has done no such thing, aside be a fart huffer dream and scam.

Also batteries can bring out a lot of power but it's short term. We all can think of how fast a Tesla at a track cooks it self and runs dry. Towing (and in the case of OTR trucking) you need shit tons of torque all the time, electric can and does give you it, hence Teslas insane 0-60 time. But try driving up mountains over and over, you'll need that 10+ litre diesel with a hulking turbo. Now, in regards to altitude batteries aren't effected like air chugging ICEs but in my example of climbing a hill you still have to drag a load up a steep incline, and that takes umph.

Hybrids are and going to become more and more common all around but elec only isn't going to take off as the sole thing, and I said that as someone who's got a tin foil hat they want to ban the ICE and large motors.

The point I was making was that electic motors can deliver the required torque without a transmission, in which case Tesla's implementation works admirably. You yourself admitted that electric motors can provide torque. The question going forward is battery capacity and safety.

That said, just because Tesla successfully implemented electronically commutated motors doesn't make them a legitimate automaker, given the steering defect you mentioned, suicidal "autopilot" and other problems. Tesla is going the way of Juicero. Musk is indeed a fraud, and the company will go under soon (like his sub).

Hybrids are somewhat more costly to repair (maintenance is a little cheaper due to regenerative braking sparing the mechanical braking system). The rising cost of gasoline means it will take even longer for a hybrid to pay for itself. For the consumer, they are the worst of both worlds.

Will a hybrid perform adequately with its electric guts ripped out? People claim this with small cars.

 

[TowinKarz]

Yes the public transit system is a big part of it, so cars are a luxury and people want either the look or reality of being a balla, when you have a show off toy.

Japan also is a fuck ton smaller than the US so I hate the "Japan has bullet trains why don't weeeee" debate, could we do better with public transit? Fuck yes and we should but to pretend we could over night have Japan's system is absurd.

People forget, the common denominator for countries that have high-speed rail networks, like the Japanese Bullet Train, the French TGV and the German ICE?

Every one of those countries had their rail infrastructure bombed into the stone age in WW2 and had the luxury of being able to rebuild it from the ground-up in a coordinated state-run effort by nationalizing the patchwork of private companies that had existed beforehand.

That never happened here.

In the US, the railroads are still running on legacy right-of-ways that date to the 19th Century in some places and were never designed for high-speed. The curves and grades are too extreme for safe travel above freeway speeds, the hard limit on most track is 70 - 80, and even that's not really possible in places where I live, like the Appalachians, too many mountains, too many curves, you'll be lucky to hit 40 most days. Also, the railroads in the US, in opposition to most of the world, are not nationalized, they're private companies and they are dedicated to freight hauling, they lease the lines for the national passenger service (Amtrak) but, again, due to the legacy nature of the track, they stopped being cutting-edge for passengers around the 1950's. US railroads accordingly dropped their passenger services in the late 60's and early 70's as unprofitable, and never looked back. So all those new suburbus and bedroom communities that grew around urban centers in the 50's? THey did so without a train station in them, trains were seen as a bygone lowtech thing, a car was liberating, you could go anywhere anytime, unbeholden to tickets, transfers and the whim of a timetable.

To change that? The cost, economic and political to just say "imminent domain!" and nationalize the railroads AND bulldoze the thousands of people in the way of straightening out tens of thousands of miles of track? It cannot be done.

So whenever someone wants to know why we don't have a high speed passenger rail system, it's because we have reached the limit of what we can develop without starting over from scratch, because nobody bombed us to smithereens 70 years ago.

Our car craziness isn't just because we won't take a train, circumstances has made it so that we largely cannot.

 

[Cristobal’s Colon]

People forget, the common denominator for countries that have high-speed rail networks, like the Japanese Bullet Train, the French TGV and the German ICE?

Every one of those countries had their rail infrastructure bombed into the stone age in WW2 and had the luxury of being able to rebuild it from the ground-up in a coordinated state-run effort by nationalizing the patchwork of private companies that had existed beforehand.

That never happened here.

In the US, the railroads are still running on legacy right-of-ways that date to the 19th Century in some places and were never designed for high-speed. The curves and grades are too extreme for safe travel above freeway speeds, the hard limit on most track is 70 - 80, and even that's not really possible in places where I live, like the Appalachians, too many mountains, too many curves, you'll be lucky to hit 40 most days. Also, the railroads in the US, in opposition to most of the world, are not nationalized, they're private companies and they are dedicated to freight hauling, they lease the lines for the national passenger service (Amtrak) but, again, due to the legacy nature of the track, they stopped being cutting-edge for passengers around the 1950's. US railroads accordingly dropped their passenger services in the late 60's and early 70's as unprofitable, and never looked back. So all those new suburbus and bedroom communities that grew around urban centers in the 50's? THey did so without a train station in them, trains were seen as a bygone lowtech thing, a car was liberating, you could go anywhere anytime, unbeholden to tickets, transfers and the whim of a timetable.

To change that? The cost, economic and political to just say "imminent domain!" and nationalize the railroads AND bulldoze the thousands of people in the way of straightening out tens of thousands of miles of track? It cannot be done.

So whenever someone wants to know why we don't have a high speed passenger rail system, it's because we have reached the limit of what we can develop without starting over from scratch, because nobody bombed us to smithereens 70 years ago.

Our car craziness isn't just because we won't take a train, circumstances has made it so that we largely cannot.

For every one of these "nice things" we can't have, the answer is logistics, as you've alluded to. I might add that nationalized healthcare goes smoothly only for the homogenous Norwegians, who all look the same, talk the same and live and get sick the same, thereby making administration easier.