Sperg about comic books here

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mate, if i was attacking you, i'd just call you a nigger and be done with it. we're discussing comics, not having a debate or a fist fight, relax.
:lit:
said he was manipulative. i don't recall saying he was whatever he needs to be for his goals. think you're misunderstanding my point in talking about how Butcher treats homosexuals, my point was while he may be a cunt and call them faggots and the like in private, he isn't an outright asshole to actually be discriminatory to them in person.

yeah Butcher doesn't have an arc through out the boys, he already had his arc before the story takes place, from his childhood to the war to meeting Becky to losing her was his arc.
Soooo, he doesn't change or grow or is effected by the plot?
does he though? it's pointed out, in the story, that Butcher never does anything with out direct reason to do so.
Whereas good writing weaves that point into the story, show don't tell style.
The entire timing of him telling Hughie about his wife for example is possibly to manipulate Hughie.

i'm not sure you understood the story if you think Butcher was being used as a hero.
Anti-hero.
Multiple characters state how Butcher is kind of a fucking psycho.
It's an Ennis comic. They're all on the spectrum and finding a decent person is akin to scouring Sodom for one.
Mallory for example essentially outright states how Butcher stole the boys for him to create a perpetual war machine, or so he thought.

and if your response is "well the story treats him like a hero" again I'm not sure how the story can treat him as the hero when everyone in said story calls him a rabid psycho.
You're repeating again. Ennis goes out of his way to show that Butcher is the bad man we need to take on the bad men of the Seven.
did you mean to say others may see him as the villain? either way, no. in terms of what an antagonist is, Butcher is it. He's the primary driving force of the bad things happening in the comic. that's what an antagonist is. a villain and an antagonist are two different things.
I'm not quibbling at this point over villain/antagonist. The ending feels forced and he stretched the story out. You want to defend Butcher as a character, for some reason. I've explained my problems with him. I don't think he's well defined, I think his motives are pretty basic. He's more generic than anything else. But again, if you share in Ennis' views, your going to get some take that moments from the Boys. It's all just really hollow

okay, why is he not the antagonist then? just saying something isn't true doesn't mean it isn't. so why is he not the antagonist of the story?

And repeating, again. He's the antagonist when he needs to be. He's whatever Ennis wants. He's that loosely constructed.

and you can think something is bad that I enjoy. i'm not getting personally offended over that.

sucks to be you then, huh?

Yet you seem intent on pointing out what an amazing masterpiece Garth Ennis' mastrubatory opus is. Hell, maybe it's just mediocre. But for me, the Boys was what Moore pilled me on Ennis.
I'm like Neo, I was stuck in the Enitrix. I'm now awake. Feels pretty good. 8)
 
Anti-hero.

eh. i don't think he's an anti-hero. Punisher is an Anti-hero. Venom is an anti-hero. If the comic had ended after Homelander died, then yeah Butcher would be an anti-hero, but it didn't. Butcher took it way further than just being an anti-hero in my opinion.

Whereas good writing weaves that point into the story, show don't tell style.

i also don't fully agree with that either, simply because it's not revealed that Butcher is being manipulative until much MUCH later. I feel like this is akin to any twist at the end of a movie being explained getting told it's bad writing because it told and didn't show. you know?

Yet you seem intent on pointing out what an amazing masterpiece Garth Ennis' mastrubatory opus is.

we're discussing comics in the comic thread mate. i am stating my opinions on The Boys and you decided to engage with me. you seem to have a personal dislike of Ennis and his work. Which I don't care about. but claiming I'm trying to defend Ennis and the boys as some master piece is kinda pushing me closer to that hard r, not gonna lie.

And repeating, again. He's the antagonist when he needs to be. He's whatever Ennis wants. He's that loosely constructed.

no he seemed to be the antagonist through out the entire story, it just wasn't revealed until the end.

I don't think he's well defined, I think his motives are pretty basic.

not sure how he's both basic and undefined. I think he's very well defined. He is also basic but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

But again, if you share in Ennis' views, your going to get some take that moments from the Boys.

literally don't know what ennis' views are and i do not care. i am however hungry.

I think the only thing I've read of Alan Moore is TKJ, I'm not really interested in Watchmen, if you have anything you want to suggest of him you're free to do so. He created my favorite comic book character of all time, so i'm happy to read more of his work.
 
we're discussing comics in the comic thread mate. i am stating my opinions on The Boys and you decided to engage with me. you seem to have a personal dislike of Ennis and his work. Which I don't care about. but claiming I'm trying to defend Ennis and the boys as some master piece is kinda pushing me closer to that hard r, not gonna lie.
Hard R?

More dislike the inflation of Ennis work beyond what it is. His run on The Demon was good. Hitman started good but ran too long and ended up going a little sideways.

I don't know what your arguing for then? I don't think it's good and you do?
no he seemed to be the antagonist through out the entire story, it just wasn't revealed until the end.

not sure how he's both basic and undefined. I think he's very well defined. He is also basic but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
He has a basic set of motivations and as a human being he's undefined. He wears black and hates superheroes.
literally don't know what ennis' views are and i do not care. i am however hungry.
Neat?
I think the only thing I've read of Alan Moore is TKJ,
Wow. That's...suprising
I'm not really interested in Watchmen, if you have anything you want to suggest of him you're free to do so.
Not interested in the definitive work that shaped modern comics. Does that mean you haven't read or just don't want to bother?
He created my favorite comic book character of all time, so i'm happy to read more of his work.

Wait. If you only read the Killing Joke, what character does he create in that?
 
I don't know what your arguing for then? I don't think it's good and you do?

I'm not arguing with you, i'm having a conversation with you. I'm just talking about comics here.

since you seem to be under the impression we are in a heated debate over whether or not The Boys is the greatest piece of literature ever written. I think I'm done on this topic.

Wait. If you only read the Killing Joke, what character does he create in that?

I don't have to read the material to know what he's created. He created John Constantine who first appeared in Swamp Thing.
 
I'm not arguing with you, i'm having a conversation with you. I'm just talking about comics here.

since you seem to be under the impression we are in a heated debate over whether or not The Boys is the greatest piece of literature ever written. I think I'm done on this topic.

Okie doke. I don't think we're having a debate, I thought we were sperging about comics. My bad then.

I don't have to read the material to know what he's created. He created John Constantine who first appeared in Swamp Thing.

John's your fav comic character then? Hmm.

Swamp Things pretty good. It gets lumped with Vertigo along with Animal Man and Doom Patrol, but doesn't really belong there. The one thing it does have that would trigger the hardcore Vertigo crowd is ample capes and cowls. It's more firmly rooted in the DCU.
 
Has anyone looked into the apparent rumors surrounding DC Future State that was recently released? It sounds pretty awful all around besides what they're doing with Yara's storyline unless they fuck that up too. It's from BleedingCool so here's an archived link to all of them.
  1. We are told that in DC Future State, the Multiverse has been saved from the brink of destruction, but the triumph of DC's heroes has shaken loose the very fabric of time and space. And that the final chapter of Dark Nights: Death Metal brings new life to DC's Multiverse, kicking off this glimpse into the unwritten worlds of DC's future.
  2. The new Flash in Infinite Frontier #0 is not Jess Chambers, aka Kid Quick. But is the Australian member of the new Titans Academy and is called Bolt.
  3. Tim Fox is the original son of Lucius Fox from pre-Crisis continuity and recently returned to join Luke Fox and Tamra Fox as grown-up children of Lucius Fox and Tanya Fox. We are told with a broader perspective, that Tim Fox, as the new Batman of DC Future State, truly saves Gotham, something Bruce Wayne could not do.
  4. Clark Kent has had many wives and many children after Lois Lane is long gone.
  5. Bolt takes on the future Flash role in Future State: Suicide Squad.
  6. In the Amazon rainforest, Yara Flor is chosen to be the new Wonder Woman. The previous Wonder Woman wanted to bring peace to humanity. The new Wonder Woman wants to bring peace to the gods.
  7. After hanging up her mask, Stephanie Brown returns as Spoiler – but is later believed to have betrayed the Batfamily to the Magistrate.
  8. Lois Lane is an ambassador for Earth to the United Planets, a step up from a journalist but she does have connections. But how come she's the one who has to deal with Lex Luthor, ruler of planet Lexor, dominated with oh-so-familiar propaganda and divide-and-rule politics?
  9. The original Justice League team got too big, brought in too many members, and so one betrayed them and spilt their secrets.
  10. Future versions of the Justice League maintain mandatory secret identities and no fraternisation between members. Sorry, Superman and Wonder Woman… or Aquaman and Mera… or Batman and Wonder Woman.
  11. Jo Mullein has the reputation of uniting the Green Lantern Corps in time to solve Oa's greatest mystery, is the ring loss that mystery?
  12. Tim Fox does not like to be called Tim, or Timothy, but Jace. Jace Fox. Which may stop him being confused with Tim Drake.
  13. The William Cobb version of Talon is the new Batman in Future State: Suicide Squad, but from the preview, he doesn't last long.
  14. Something terrible happened Tamara Fox, putting her in a coma related to superheroes and super-heroics.
  15. Hypnotic Woman is persuading everyone she's Wonder Woman in Future State: Suicide Squad.
  16. As thieves, Catwoman and Poison Ivy find the third member of their Birds Of Prey, Dee-Dee, standing for Domestic Droid.
  17. The Legion Of Doom exposed the League as "false idols", popularising the term "not our Justice League". Well, that sounds familiar. They are T.O.Morrow, Despera (Despero's daughter), AMAz-X, The Screech Owl, The Flood, Cobalt Blue, and UltraViolet Lantern.
  18. The mercreature Fisherman in the Aquaman role in Future State: Suicide Squad.
  19. The future of the Green Lanterns is a ringless one. A bit like Star Trek: Discovery without the dilithium. So we have Green Lanterns, trapped with no ring to speak of. G'nort has become a far fiercer warrior – even more than John Stewart.
  20. Police and firefighters no longer talk to each other in Gotham.
  21. Gotham has a Speakeasy for super-powered folk, away from the Magistrates, run by Slam Bradley.
  22. Jessica Cruz is fighting Yellow Lanterns without a ring, Ripley style. Which Corps will she end up joining?
  23. The Next Batman wields golden shuriken in the Future State.
  24. Guy Gardner, without a ring, could be the greatest peace bringer of all, across the decades? Less one punch, more one peace.
  25. Clayface is now looking like Martian Manhunter in Future State: Suicide Squad.
  26. In 2030, magicians are being hunted down with the Justice League Dark mounting a fight-back against the Crow King Merlin. With Merlin's Men playing the role of the Magistrate in Gotham – but with magic.
  27. The angel and former Leaguer, Zauriel, has burned at the stake, after working with John Constantine, which is always the way. However, even John has an injury to eye motif now.
  28. "Gone gone, the Simian, rise the Demon Etrigan."
  29. Superman is a grown-up Conner Kent in Future State: Suicide Squad.
  30. The Next Batman has Vol, his own Oracle.
  31. On Warworld, Clark Kent/Superman is battling as a gladiator, so he can eventually liberate the planet from its ruler, Mongul's son.
  32. Lucius Fox provides technology to Mayor Nakama and the same police trying to take the Next Batman down – he is number one on their most-wanted list. You will hear that a lot.
  33. The new Mister Miracle (watch no one complain that he is black because… it's Mister Miracle), Shilo Norman, accidentally lands on the planet after escaping Metropolis, while Guardian manages a bottled city of rioters.
  34. Tanya Fox provides legal counsel to Mayor Nakama to defend the "shoot on sight" policy taken by Gotham police to Batman, and other masked individuals still operating in Gotham. And it's her job to make taking down the Next Batman a little more legally defensible than what happened to Bruce Wayne.
  35. The new Wonder Woman, Yara Flor, begins her story targetting incompetent, hypocritical and corrupt politicians in San Paulo, Brazil. The type who travel in helicopters to avoid the people they govern and the protests they generate.
  36. Luke Fox has been arrested because he used to be Batwing, transported by police alongside Grifter.
  37. Huntress is a criminal – as are Catwoman and Poison Ivy.
  38. Midnighter hunts for a power source greater than Kryptonite to help Clark overthrow Warworld's ruler. But what of The Authority? They are mentioned, so they exist.
  39. The mercenary force The Magistrate is hired by Gotham City's Mayor Christopher Nakano to hunt down all vigilantes and super-villain after "A-Day", which seems to stand for Arkham.
  40. Supergirl had issues with Jonathan Kent becoming Superman, rather than her. After he shrank Metropolis and placed it in a bottle, Supergirl demands he relinquishes the role. There was a big fight. This is why she is on the moon, establishing a colony for refugee aliens expelled or unable to seek shelter in Earth.
  41. Employing curfew, arresting civilians without procedure, shooting suspects without process, no freedoms to protest, or free assembly, the resulting Gotham City system is explicitly described as a fascist state. But it is also Mega-City One.
  42. The arrival of Lynari soon threatens Superwoman's mooncolony, as shape-shifting aliens come looking for her.
  43. The Magistrate was developed and funded by Lucius Fox and Wayne Enterprises, who are also behind some of its more esoteric technology.
  44. The Magistrate introduces a fully militarised police force, armoured up, including uranium tipped bullets and dragon's breath shotguns, consisting primarily of magnesium pellets/shards.
  45. The Future State Legion Of Super-Heroes has been disbanded.
  46. Planet Gotham, the first artificially created planet, has seen a full planet wide evacuation ordered by the emergency United Planets council – will it see the reformation of the Legion?
  47. Jo wants to get the Legion back together. Tasmia – Shadow Lass, does not. What will Braniac-7 and Saturn Girl decide? Especially with Cosmic Boy, Colossal Boy and Lightning Lad on the way?
  48. We have seen something between Catwoman, and Poison Ivy just set up in the Catwoman series, and Future State has made them loyal thieves to each other, stealing from the big tech boys behind some of the workings of the Gotham fascist state.
  49. The Magistrate has no jurisdiction across the Gotham City line.
  50. Dee-Dee previously appeared in the future-set Batman Beyond cartoon, as twin sisters Delia Dennis and Deirdre Dennis, the granddaughters of Harley Quinn. Under the common alias Dee Dee, they joined the Jokerz and followed their grandmother's footsteps as "hench-wenches" of the original Joker. But this is a new Dee-Dee for the DC Universe.
  51. Harley Quinn, caught by the Scarecrow for the Magistrate, is being used like Hannibal, helping Crane catch more bad guys, in return for little freedoms.
  52. Getting faster and more accurate in their responses, Cybers are also using Lazarus Resin to revive themselves when destroyed.
  53. Harley Quinn, working with the Magistrate, is bad news for Professor Pyg and Firebug, good news for Harley. But does she really want to catch the Black Mask?
  54. In the year 4500, Swamp Thing has become the ruler of Earth, after the human population was devastated by war. So the Swamp Thing has made his own replacement humans while looking for humans. Has got a lot better since The Anatomy Lesson and now knows how to build animal life in much greater detail and purpose, with the Obsidian and the Dying Man.
  55. The Magistrate works under a new Gotham "shoot on sight" law, if they see anyone masked, their main task to seek out and destroy all vigilantes.
  56. The humans who survived Swamp Thing under Woodrue Wilson decide to overthrow him, leading Swamp Thing to decide to go to war as well.
  57. The Magistrate operates a Detention Facility full of superheroes and supervillains.
  58. Yara Flor, Wonder Woman declare she will no longer be part of the Justice League while it is still associated with the United Planets. Stuff went down.
  59. Reep Daggle, Chamelon Boy is the son of RJ Brande, former president iof the former United Planets.
  60. Daxam was the first planet hit in The Elemental, the Elemental Event or the Elemental Rapture. But Winath was the planet hit hardest.
  61. And is Jan Arrah, Element Lad, is the great betrayer responsible for this new normal inthe far future?
  62. The Magistrate monitors everything and traces everyone. But there are ways around it. Full facemasks stop the Magistrate's facial recognition software. So do polygon masks. And false face serum.
  63. Each Sector of Gotham state has a regional Peacekeeper in charge of the troops, with a different number to denominate them—12 for Wastelands, 01 for Gotham Central. Captain Marks, The Mark, is Peacekeeper 06, head of the Special Group for The Magistrate.
  64. After the Elemental Rapture, there are only two of Triplicate Lass? Duo Damsel now -maybe.
  65. In the far-flung future, the Immortal Diana Wonder Woman remembers the long past by wearing the Bat belt buckle. It appears that her relationship with Bruce Wayne was more significant than is recognised in the current DC Universe.
  66. However only a few hundred centuries from now, Diana Wonder Woman and Black Adam are a thing, and have been for centuries.
  67. Jason Todd is involved with Ravager, Rose Wilson, dauughter of Deathstroke.
  68. Batman is apparently killed in an alleyway by Peacekeeper 01 but as Bruce Wayne. Somehow they know that means Batman is dead – Lucius Fox perhaps? Batman survived, faking his death as Bruce Wayne but is forced to go underground. However, it was that moment that allowed the Magistrate to turn the city into a police state.
  69. At the end of time, all is forgiven, forgotten with Swamp Thing, who is now planted in Themyscria, taking root through Paradise Island.
  70. Black Adam rules the planet of Kahndaq in 82,020 and is forced to save all reality from a former hero.
  71. Peacekeeper 01 replaced Commissioner Montoya in Gotham.
  72. Yara Flor Wonder Woman has found power allegiances, living alongside Brazilian gods of the sun and the moon – and their horses.
  73. There are 52 public enemies in Gotham. The Next Batman is number one.
  74. Nightwing was placed in Arkham Asylum on "A-Day" but escaped, is leading a Resistance against the Magistrate. Whatever happened on A-Day dooms anyone who wore a mask.
  75. Krypto is dead. How cheery.
  76. Could Bouncing Boy be the greatest warrior of all?
  77. The Knights Of Arkham also fighting the Magistrate, led by Astrid Arkham, including Clayface, Two-Face, King Croc, Zsasz, Dumpty, Phosphorous, in Wayne Manor.
  78. Watch out for the establishment of Trojan Tech in Metropolis, because even as the city and Superman get rid of Luther and Lexcorp, he leaves behind Brain Cells, controlling all as well as Superman having to deal with Brainiac, The Five Empires, The Golden Gods Of Creon, The Time Luchadores.
  79. That's right, The Time Luchadores.
  80. Darcy of We Are Robin is working at Gotham Customs. And Jason Todd is working with the Magistrate – taking down masks like Vigilante.
  81. Dilton Luxury Tech makes "Cybers" for the Magistrate, created to safeguard merchandise, but now the drones and over-sized battle droids police the street.
  82. Kaliber of the League Of Assassins is with the Magistrate now.
  83. Mogo becomes the new Justice Legion-A Watchtower of Future State.
  84. Dee-Dee is a singular robot – though she may be about to be franchised. And also may be called Siren. We will see.
  85. Other companies are also behind the Magistrate technology. There may be some continuity-conflict here—Plexitech for Magistrate ballistic and armour, as well as Neocorp and Draftech.
  86. Jimmy Olsen of Metropolis' Daily Planet revealed a Resistance plot to kill the Magistrate's Captain Of The Guard.
  87. The Black Mask is out there, and no one can catch him or his gang, not masks, not the Magistrate. Veil is part of the Black Mask syndicate.
  88. The Bane-Litos is another street gang operating in Gotham, as is The Red Hood Gang.
  89. The Last Lords Of Chaos are Vandal Savage, Teekl, The Child and Dove, alongside the Deadly Sins as The Unkindness.
  90. Who is… Gold Beetle in Future State?
  91. Yes, a number of characters and storylines will continue into DC Infinite – set in their own times or brought to ours.
Was somewhat interested in Future State since it'd be a first for me following something while it's running, but most of it looks pretty bad. Might keep tabs on the Yara run and just peace out till it's over while reading through the old stuff on my backlog. Hopefully this doesn't signal their plans for after Future State being similar to what's happening here.
 
Out of a list of 91 ideas, there's only a handful that are interesting or have a chance at producing good stories. This is the most "spaghetti thrown at the wall" shit I've seen. No clear vision, no direction, just a bunch of random crap all thrown together in a desperate attempt to garner interest and stay relevant. Depressing.

Oh, and it seems like some copies of Future State and the conclusion of Death Metal may have been sold early by accident. So that'll be fun to look out for.
 
I have a feeling that Future State is going to either undo Flashpoint or at least be a soft reboot like Rebirth was,

After all, Rebirth happened 5 years after Nu52 began, and 2021 is the 10th anniversary of Flashpoint, so....
 
Has anyone looked into the apparent rumors surrounding DC Future State that was recently released? It sounds pretty awful all around besides what they're doing with Yara's storyline unless they fuck that up too. It's from BleedingCool so here's an archived link to all of them.

I just... there are no words. It can always get worse, right chums? Let's have some fun with this. List your cringe favs! from this!


Tim Fox, as the new Batman of DC Future State, truly saves Gotham, something Bruce Wayne could not do.
hahahaahah, get it? He's better than Batmans

Clark Kent has had many wives and many children after Lois Lane is long gone.

Fuck everyone at DC Comics.

The future of the Green Lanterns is a ringless one, like Star Trek: Discovery without the dilithium.

Working really well for STD too...

The angel and former Leaguer, Zauriel, has burned at the stake

Speaks for itself

The new Wonder Woman, Yara Flor, begins her story targetting incompetent, hypocritical and corrupt politicians in San Paulo, Brazil. The type who travel in helicopters to avoid the people they govern and the protests they generate.

Politics, this will end well.

Supergirl had issues with Jonathan Kent becoming Superman, rather than her. After he shrank Metropolis and placed it in a bottle, Supergirl demands he relinquishes the role. There was a big fight. This is why she is on the moon, establishing a colony for refugee aliens expelled or unable to seek shelter in Earth.

More of this shit? I thought the immigration shit would end now that Trumps gone. What the fuck does DC have against families?

We have seen something between Catwoman, and Poison Ivy just set up in the Catwoman series, and Future State has made them loyal thieves to each other, stealing from the big tech boys behind some of the workings of the Gotham fascist state.

Poison Ivy is not a thief, she's an eco terrorist. She does not give a fuck about people. This doesn't make sense.

In the far-flung future, the Immortal Diana Wonder Woman remembers the long past by wearing the Bat belt buckle. It appears that her relationship with Bruce Wayne was more significant than is recognised in the current DC Universe.

So Bat/Diana is next? Shippers

Krypto is dead. How cheery.

Seriously DC, all the people that work there, right up the shute.


The Harley idea is actually pretty good and should be a tv show. Except, well, they'd fuck that up too.

Was somewhat interested in Future State since it'd be a first for me following something while it's running, but most of it looks pretty bad. Might keep tabs on the Yara run and just peace out till it's over while reading through the old stuff on my backlog. Hopefully this doesn't signal their plans for after Future State being similar to what's happening here.

I think they had this in the pipe when Dan Didio was there. Already have the stuff, throw it out and see what sticks?

Out of a list of 91 ideas, there's only a handful that are interesting or have a chance at producing good stories. This is the most "spaghetti thrown at the wall" shit I've seen. No clear vision, no direction, just a bunch of random crap all thrown together in a desperate attempt to garner interest and stay relevant. Depressing.

Oh, and it seems like some copies of Future State and the conclusion of Death Metal may have been sold early by accident. So that'll be fun to look out for.

It was called Unity and Jim Shooter pulled it off in '92.
 
I have a feeling that Future State is going to either undo Flashpoint or at least be a soft reboot like Rebirth was,

After all, Rebirth happened 5 years after Nu52 began, and 2021 is the 10th anniversary of Flashpoint, so....
I actually thought it was going to be more like Convergence, a hastily thrown together event series that has no impact on anything. It seemed like they were trying to salvage whatever their originals plans were for 5G, with the rest just being some random brainstormed ideas. I think the majority of it will have no impact on the overall comics, but I recall them saying if fan response is positive towards certain things, they'll see about doing continuing issues.

Some ideas also seem to be creator pet ideas, so I expect those might limp along after the event only to be forgotten about, or never referenced outside of whoever thought them up. I think that's why I'm not too bothered by any of the dumb ideas, and there are truly a lot of them. This seems like one of those events that is intended to go nowhere, have minimal (if any) overarching impact on existing characters and will probably be forgotten about a few weeks after it concludes. But, they need to hype it up because, well, that's what marketing teams do.
 
but why the fuck would the catering staff and janitors and shit be guilty of whatever the rich fucks were.
It's fine, they were all mega pedos
Oof, which is why I find him getting work at the big two laughable. His antipathy for superheroes leads him to write shoddy stories for them.
I like his stuff and thought the same thing. If they're gonna let him write capeshit that doesn't star the Punisher, they should just let him write Superman since he's the only one Ennis respects and treats with any dignity.
 
I still can't get over series having a sudden art style change half way through a run, usually happens just as I'm getting used to the original to. Reading through the 2009 Power Girl and after getting to the art style change I just kind of lost interest on continuing because I'm not a big fan of the new art. I feel incredibly petty for it to be stopping me, but it really bugs me coming from manga to have sudden shifts that aren't related to rushed chapters. I know it's typically due to them swapping out teams after a run, which seem to be around 12 - 13 issues, but it's still so weird.

Noticed the same thing as I've gotten farther into the 2009 Harley Quinn series, but it weirdly will only last a single page or even panel before swapping back to the old (or at least similar to the old) art style.
 
I still can't get over series having a sudden art style change half way through a run, usually happens just as I'm getting used to the original to. Reading through the 2009 Power Girl and after getting to the art style change I just kind of lost interest on continuing because I'm not a big fan of the new art. I feel incredibly petty for it to be stopping me, but it really bugs me coming from manga to have sudden shifts that aren't related to rushed chapters. I know it's typically due to them swapping out teams after a run, which seem to be around 12 - 13 issues, but it's still so weird.

Noticed the same thing as I've gotten farther into the 2009 Harley Quinn series, but it weirdly will only last a single page or even panel before swapping back to the old (or at least similar to the old) art style.
this is off putting because sometimes it's a guest artist or sth like bill sienkewickz and i just roll with it if they're a good artist.

hate it when they switch to a crap one like liefeld tbh.
 
I still can't get over series having a sudden art style change half way through a run, usually happens just as I'm getting used to the original to. Reading through the 2009 Power Girl and after getting to the art style change I just kind of lost interest on continuing because I'm not a big fan of the new art. I feel incredibly petty for it to be stopping me, but it really bugs me coming from manga to have sudden shifts that aren't related to rushed chapters. I know it's typically due to them swapping out teams after a run, which seem to be around 12 - 13 issues, but it's still so weird.
As some one who has read a lot of comics from different eras, I have noticed long runs with the same creators has varied in popularity at times in different companies, in the early days it was who ever was the hot artist and writer getting the most features in books, the silver age has a lot of good runs with the same artist(s)/writer(s) and in the bronze age it was a mix up. A lot of times it was either out of necessity to have one or two guys work on a few books for years or as a creative creative choice, similarly vice versa with having rotating artists/writers through out time.

In the Modern era long runs with creators and artists are rare and the ones with good creators are even rarer even more so at Marvel/DC and I think the difference is that in the modern era DC/Marvel look to cut corners at every possible turn. They bait people in with high profile artists and writers and switch them out, and the corners cut include the pay for a lot of these writers and artists, so they have to play hardball for the scraps DC/Marvel will throw them, so either one of two rare things have to happen the big two pay up for someone to put out high quality art work at a fast pace or the creator take the bullet because they want to work on a project their are legitimately passionate about. Which with ridiculous editorial mandates/events/crossovers/relaunches/pace is unlikely.

Sadly when they used to switch creators and artists every few issues it felt natural and unobtrusive because comics were a lot more compressed and the stable of artists were usually pretty good depending on the title and every now and then they would bring in some really experimental artists and writers to do something really weird and special, but now it more often than not seems like they are explicitly swapping out people who will work for cheaper. Sadly even when they used to do that in the past they got people with real talent and work ethic.

On a side note these From the Vault videos were great with this shlubby comic book nerd dropping shit and facts all at the same time and I am glad DC forgot to delete all of them.

If you are looking for more runs that have the same creative teams I would suggest looking into the fringes of the Marvel/DC publishing lines where people have a bit more freedom and you will find creatives who fall into the latter category or check out indie comics and follow a writer/artist. However the manga style with 100s of chapters with the same artist/writer does not happen in comics for better or worse. Also as someone who keeps up with some manga sadly I often lose interest in it before it ends because of the decompression and with comics its the opposite. But good manga always has a massive back log but sometimes it's hard to find and I would not go looking for them exclusively in Shonen Jump if you know what I mean.
 
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this is off putting because sometimes it's a guest artist or sth like bill sienkewickz and i just roll with it if they're a good artist.

hate it when they switch to a crap one like liefeld tbh.
It really sucks if the changes is so much that you're left trying to figure out who's who with the style change or going from an artist that "gets" the character perfect to someone that doesn't.
As some one who has read a lot of comics from different eras, I have noticed long runs with the same creators has varied in popularity at times in different companies, in the early days it was who ever was the hot artist and writer getting the most features in books, the silver age has a lot of good runs with the same artist(s)/writer(s) and in the bronze age it was a mix up. A lot of times it was either out of necessity to have one or two guys work on a few books for years or as a creative creative choice, similarly vice versa with having rotating artists/writers through out time.

In the Modern era long runs with creators and artists are rare and the ones with good creators are even rarer even more so at Marvel/DC and I think the difference is that in the modern era DC/Marvel look to cut corners at every possible turn. They bait people in with high profile artists and writers and switch them out, and the corners cut include the pay for a lot of these writers and artists, so they have to play hardball for the scraps DC/Marvel will throw them, so either one of two rare things have to happen the big two pay up for someone to put out high quality art work at a fast pace or the creator take the bullet because they want to work on a project their are legitimately passionate about. Which with ridiculous editorial mandates/events/crossovers/relaunches/pace is unlikely.

Sadly when they used to switch creators and artists every few issues it felt natural and unobtrusive because comics were a lot more compressed and the stable of artists were usually pretty good depending on the title and every now and then they would bring in some really experimental artists and writers to do something really weird and special, but now it more often than not seems like they are explicitly swapping out people who will work for cheaper. Sadly even when they used to do that in the past they got people with real talent and work ethic.

On a side note these From the Vault videos were great with this shlubby comic book nerd dropping shit and facts all at the same time and I am glad DC forgot to delete all of them.

If you are looking for more runs that have the same creative teams I would suggest looking into the fringes of the Marvel/DC publishing lines where people have a bit more freedom and you will find creatives who fall into the latter category or check out indie comics and follow a writer/artist. However the manga style with 100s of chapters with the same artist/writer does not happen in comics for better or worse. Also as someone who keeps up with some manga sadly I often lose interest in it before it ends because of the decompression and with comics its the opposite. But good manga always has a massive back log but sometimes it's hard to find and I would not go looking for them exclusively in Shonen Jump if you know what I mean.
That's interesting to learn. I've been looking into DC Black Label recently since a lot of those seem to be short works with interesting non-canon story choices. I don't really mind if there's a change in creative teams if the previous run has a nice conclusive ending, but it's so weird when it's mid story arc or similar.

Manga does have that problem of overstaying its welcome and just going through a big stretch on nothing, though I'd like to blame that more on an author not having a clear story worked out in advance and trying to buy time while they slap together an arc. A series has to be really good for me to stick with it till the end if it's a long series since I normally enjoy shorter works that tell a tight concise story and often times manga have just okay endings. One of the reasons I'm not interested in most Shonen Jump titles is how long and meandering they are, not even counting that getting invested in a new series just starting has a 50/50 chance of just getting axed.
 
Just dug through a long box I have of randoms, found a little over half of Hardcorps and Harbinger from Valiant's first pass, and 15 issues of the ketch Ghostrider. Glow in the dark cover + free carcinogens! Going to complete the valiant crap, I enjoyed the stuff on comixology.
 
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Talking about Punisher MAX earlier reminded me I never read through 'The Platoon', Ennis' follow-up to 'Born'. When I first heard about Platoon I figured it'd probably best be read in collected format rather than issue-to-issue, and I think I was right but it led to me forgetting it even existed for a while.

Anyway, it's really good. If Born was Year Zero for Punisher then Platoon is Year -2, with the former being about the last days of Frank's third & final tour of duty in Vietnam and the latter being about the early days during his first tour. The Platoon mixes itself in with a lot of actual history, like the Tet Offensive and the Battle of Khe Sanh.

There's a definite disconnect between how Frank's characterized in Born and in The Platoon but not in a lazy, inconsistent way but rather in a deliberate 'the war really fucked him up' way. In Born Frank's well on his way to becoming the killing machine we know as Punisher whereas The Platoon shows him far more human, focusing more on him being a natural born leader than a natural born killer.

You can still see the Punisher in him even in Platoon with how Frank takes to war like a fish does to water. There's also other little bits throughout the story that show the guy kind of guy he'll become. Garth Ennis raises the idea of "Could Frank have turned out different?" and tries to leave it ambiguous but some stuff, like Frank's dialogue of how "[War] answers something in me", Ennis seems to fall on the side of 'no'.

I wonder if he'll round out Born and the Platoon as a trilogy with another series focusing on Frank's second tour of duty. The only info we're given about that (as far as I can remember, anyway) is gossip another character heard in Born:
"His second tour is mostly mystery, but I've heard talk of wetwork in Cambodia, black ops, the company, an N.V.A. General sniped just outside of Hanoi... and horror stories too outlandish to be true."

Lastly, the 'Complete Collection' volume that collects Born also has a forward from Garth Ennis. It explains something I was talking about earlier in the thread: how different his early Marvel Knights Punisher stories are compared to his Punisher MAX work. Here it is, for those interested:
Punisher Max - The Complete Collection Vol. 01-003.jpg
 
Just dug through a long box I have of randoms, found a little over half of Hardcorps and Harbinger from Valiant's first pass, and 15 issues of the ketch Ghostrider. Glow in the dark cover + free carcinogens! Going to complete the valiant crap, I enjoyed the stuff on comixology.
the 90s valiant stuff is fun.

the valiant revival is hit or miss on a ton of stuff. it does QUantum and Woody decently though. And Armstrong/Archer is still fun.


the Faith Herbert shilling seems to be going nowhere and I find that funny.
 
the 90s valiant stuff is fun.

the valiant revival is hit or miss on a ton of stuff. it does QUantum and Woody decently though. And Armstrong/Archer is still fun.


the Faith Herbert shilling seems to be going nowhere and I find that funny.
Of what I've read of the new Valiant stuff I really like everything written by Matt Kindt and Jeff Lemire, but I believe both of them are no longer writing for Valiant.
 
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