Sperg about comic books here

[Begemot]

I genuinely hate that show, the movie, Matt Ryan, the modern DC runs and the nu-Constantine audience. Their combined existence devalues my collection and enjoyment of Hellblazer comics. Pic very much related.
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As a guy who hates everything past Mike Carey in the original Hellblazer run I don't mind Si Spurrier's DC runs, they aren't bad.

 

[Mississippi Motorboater]

I like this. I'm not familiar with any of these people but I could never bring myself to read much of the Krakoan era stuff so anything different is welcome to me. I really hope they go back and write some more traditional x-men comics rather then something weird like they've been doing with the current stuff.

I just want the comics to be have character-driven drama again, and not be about four assholes at a council table debating mutant politics.

 

[Georgio Cocklord]

Sorry Im a bit late, irl issues

I don't see much difference in Moore or Wagner compared to Ennis. Moore is staggeringly dumb in his criticism of christianity in Promethea (ie Jesus being a fictional character when regardless of what any of use feel; there was a historical Christ).

Regardless, my issue is less to do with being anti-anything than it just not being well used through the lens of story telling in Ennis work generally (with some exceptions).

Okay what I mean in the comparison is the intent not particularly skill. I value intent more than skill in this social cultural climate cause usually both good intent usually means more skill. Arguably Ennis and others come from another time period where the more skilled didnt usually have good intent but the fact that Ennis still was good humored and well intentioned in writing the boys than the aforementioned people is something good. The Boys was a pisstake, it was purposefully inflammatory but not preachy or alienating.

Does it? One bad thing happened and we get an issue. An issue that's an outlier because comic Starlight is virtually a nonexistent character outside of her role as Huey's girl and that issue as far as I'm concerned.

It's her rejection, sans challenge or depth that I object to. For contrast, take fellow atheist JMS. He does not believe in any god or what have you. But religion is a vital core of humanity. Whether it's B5, comics, or anything else, he's written. believers, Passing through Gethsamne. He takes something he doesn't believe in and provides multiple sides creating drama and tension.

Another example, since you bring up John Wagner, would be Judge Dredd's Jesus Syndrome. All much better written with a complex conflict that didn't fail to address the nuances of faith or lack thereof.

One bad thing happened to Batman, look how that turned out. It isnt about the bad thing per se but it is more about what the character arc is supposed to show. Its not even one bad thing, Starlight is treated like shit by the Seven for the entirety of the comic with her learning to find happiness despite her life going downhill. Starlights character arc is a slightly atheist version of the Job story, the defilement of young optimism leading to a rejection of religion due to the perceived injustice and consequent loss of belief in religion. Religion is not a necessary writing tool, morality and values is which is downstream from religion. Religion is not a vital core of humanity, in fact in an atheist world we are at the cusp of outgrowing religion if we are capable of permanently absorbing the values it preaches. Thats what all of religion is, stories made up by intelligent philosophers to teach people values and morality.

Yet, there a a number of people who remain faithful, whether to christianity or something else. Their are Christians in the Middle East and China. I could google, but I'm pretty sure christianity isn't about becoming a christian and nothing bad will ever happen to you.

I would also emphasize the less and less part. This wasn't much of a journey. At least in the comics. The point isn't her being faithful or not, it's that it was a rushed, shallow hit at one of Ennis' pet irritants, Christianity. That's not good storytelling. That's an edgy teen boy's internet screed.

I sort of agree with the rushed shallow bit, it couldve been explored more if it was the intention of Ennis to make it more descriptive. But the central focus of the Boys, among the many things it organically displays, is to display the defilement of superheroes. The British view of heroism and superheroes in general is in a nutshell "too much power for one person who is definitely going to be corrupted by it" thats what every British person thinks of heroism, superheroism and any larger than life entity in general. As part of this worldview and moral compass every british person will hate christianity cause in their view christianity is a failed moral institution at best and a fascist expansionist cult of evil people at worst. So you cant expect them to not take potshots at Christianity, again thats what I meant by be thankful that Ennis has the best view instead of the worst view evidenced by his portrayal of Starlight.

Which would be fine, but what is Starlight, in the comic, other than her being tied to Huey?

The optimistic small town girl disillusioned by the city. Ive read some of the notes in the omnibuses and they seem to match what I described, Huey is the nice guy nerd who becomes a paranoid shutin after his girlfriend gets killed while Starlight is the country mouse being disillusioned by the metropolis after moving for a job. Hell its pretty reflective of real life with the soyboys on both sides of politics being Huey while Starlight is the democrat city troon who was a republican country girl who went to college.

I...dunno? I mean, I feel the Boys morality is skewed. The book consists of them doing the vilest things and then justifying it by having cartoonishly one dimensional villains opposite of them. The fact Ennis gave his Simon Pegg (please give me a TV show Hollywood) a GF doesn't to me alter/undermine my criticism that she's more Huey's pet sup/girl then the more complex character with agency the show turned her into.

The vile things are pure shock value. Thats the thing which most people dont understand, the morality of the Boys does not lie with the superheroes or associated characters, it lies with the character arcs of the central cast. Homelander is just a thirteen year old in the body of Superman, the organized groups apart from the seven are supposed to be pisstake parodies, theyre supposed to be one dimensional, thats the joke. Fun Fact, Huey is in fact a Simon Pegg standin from Spaced the TV show which was a huge unofficial collaboration with 2000AD.

Okay, so now you admit that she exists to be Huey's GF plot wise? Note that my standard isn't any of the things you mention.

I could point....again, to the countless love interests in other comics. Who is Starlight? Really?

Another way to look at it, who do I put her with, in the comic, and she creates good story drama and tension? Her christianity is a wonderful foil for Butcher, her wholesomeness a nice contrast for Frenchie. But in the comic where does that go?

No, I said she has less agency as in shes not the counterpart to Huey like Wonder Woman is to Superman. Shes not a primary character, shes a secondary character, thats it, thats what I meant by less agency. She doesnt exist to be Hueys GF, she exists for the country to town arc I mentioned earlier.

I could talk about others. I could point to Homelander. I didn't like Stormfront or Soldier boy in the show, but fucking hell were they better than in the comic book.

Again Homelander is a pisstake, he is a thirteen year old boy who wears hair dye and draws dicks on bathroom walls while yelling faggot and kike in family meetings and on XBox Live. Thats the point of the character, Ennis took Superman and Captain America, two selfless heroic characters, mashed them together and asked himself "What would they be if they were a whiny annoying faggot kid instead of what they are".

And that's lovely. Ennis usually is beloved because he gives a woobie moment. He's always done that. But when it comes time, he doesn't really fulfill conflict, does he?

Its not a moment thing, he does this everywhere. He makes characters who are against his own interests sympathetic instead of evil, be it one dimensional evil or three dimensional evil. When it comes to conflict, hes not really a conflict writer as in he doesnt write large scale combat funnily enough being a War story fanatic. He writes small scale personalized combat, mostly character conflict which is pretty good. Yes its not always satisfactory but its pretty good when its pretty good.

Yet Rosarch is the moral one. He's the one who refuses to allow the murder of millions to go by. He's the only one not so far caught up in his own selfish hangups that he let's Veidt run wild. Moore's problem with Rosarch was he was too good of a writer to properly undermine the character and his drama and conflicts. Rosarch gets the added humanization you talk about (his mother the whore, his experience with the killers, his relationship with Dan). But, at the end it actually leads somewhere. It's tied to story. A story where everyone isn't a psychotic sociopath, with real drama and conflict; even though the author clearly has his own pet peeves and issues.

You point to Ennis being generous to Troons and mysogynists. But those are groups he somewhat is neutral to personally and what does that relate to the story; compared to Rosarch's deranged lunatic playing into a character, fully formed, and ultimately acting in a righteous way.

The humanization is to add complexity to the character as part of the storys theme, not sympathy. To be very clear Alan Moore doesnt want you to see Rorschach in any sort of sympathetic light, not even the least amount. He wants you to be disgusted by Rorschach, backstory and all. He is supposed to be the psychotic sociopath, it is indicated as much in the Watchmen companion (where the Question is described as deranged and obsessive) and the notes on Rorschach after the Rorschach Issue. Hes literally been kicked out of every school hes been to and has drawn rape scenes as part of psychiatric visits at 13. Ennis on the other hand definitely doesnt like Butcher, he doesnt like some of the characters and yet theyre not deranged, theyre very relatable even sympathetic. Every character in the Boys who is not a superhero is written with contextual sympathy even if theyre opposed to Ennis's progressive values. A good example of this fact is when Ennis dropped writing Constantine cause he saw Constantine as fundamentally unsympathetic/unrelatable and a downright evil asshole, he didnt do the same to Butcher and other characters.

I find his ethics lacking, his understanding of christianity shallow to non-existent, and progressive tendencies irrelevant. My issue with the Boys are his failure to, after including things he hates, address them in a way other than that of an angry 15 year old.

Yes that is the point, the Boys is supposed to be a satirical defilement of superheroes with a really high dose of edgy nihilism. Its supposed to be darkly comical, not actually too deep or informative.

I'm not suggesting he's never created a character (He's been doing this for over thirty years/he better have by now), I'm specifically talking about the Boys. About it's poor characterization, it's lackluster addressing of issues and topics Ennis chose to drudge up. About his failures to create tension and drama.

Its not supposed to be deep, the poor characterization is done to all the "bad guys" to make them the comic relief, jokes at their expense with the joke being theyre so one dimensional and shitty. Its something he did with The Pro, the one dimensional shallow subversion of superheroism. The "good guys" have pretty good characterization with the primary protagonists deuteragonists having really great characterization.

I was never scared for Butcher when he faced a Supe in the comic. In the show anytime they appear they are menacing because of the power gap. I point to Starlight, but I could point to 90% of the cast. I pointed to her because though both the show and book dunked on Christians; the show, at least, took time to make an actual point that was related to characterization and it resulted in interesting character development, drama, and pathos.

It dunked on christianity, not christians. Thats part of Ennis's good nature which most christians these days themselves cant bring themselves to practice, "hating the sin not the sinner". Ennis hates christianity the institution, not christian people, which is fine even if quite unjustified which Im sure in his case it isnt considering he was born Irish Catholic and was brought up with the perception of god/Jesus being a dictatorial figure. Ive not seen the show and I dont like it, they fucked over my boy Butcher and did a ton of shitty changes Im not a fan of.

 

[Nick Obre]

And I'll give Lantern a look-see. As weird as it may be to be into conceptual entities like Darkseid, the general hyper cosmic bullshit The Corps center around has always been off putting to me. So if it stick within the mote grounded nature of the E1 concept, I'll probably enjoy it to some extent.

That's the weird thing I can't very well explain, it's about cosmic stuff with aliens and such, but it feels more grounded, almost a bit space horror-ish, kind of like the feeling certain parts of Alien or 2001 Space Odyssey give (of course, not saying it's as good as those).

Although I'll say again, this is from memory from back then. I may be remembering it to be better than it is.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

So I've had the first issue of Earth One superman for a long time, and loved it, but am just now going through the other 2 issues and going through Batman Earth one. Surprised this concept didn't take off/get more popular. Even though things like Man of Steel obviously took a lot of inspiration from it, for better and worse. I'd kill to have a World's Finest run for the boys though.

Would anyone recommend the other E1 series? Never cared much for Latern, but if his fans say it's good I'll trust ya, and anything with Diana can be a total crapshoot so I'm iffy on hers as well. When WW is done well it hits hard, but it's so easy to fuck her up.

It's the same issue indie comics had: They took too long to come out. Since they're GNs rather than regular comics, they took their time with them but there were huge gaps between releases and the books are clearly meant to be part of a larger story. Batman Earth One, the first one came out in 2012, the second in 2015 and the last in 2021.

The other issue is that GNs don't make as much money. The reason comics still release monthly and then collect in trades rather than just releasing trades is because you make more money that way from people buying it twice or from ads in the floppies. Graphic Novels on the other hand are a slow burn so it can take years for them to make profit. Part of the reason there's no Superman volume 4 is because Straczynski was having eye trouble, but rather than bring in a new writer to take over like they normally would, they scrapped the project probably because they weren't seeing much money from it.

 

[Pig Boss]

As a guy who hates everything past Mike Carey in the original Hellblazer run I don't mind Si Spurrier's DC runs, they aren't bad.

My main issue is the language used is like a bad impression of the real Hellblazer, it's like reading an American redditor doing that unfunny impression of English that retards love, you know the one; "Oi oi guv, you got a loicence for that magic" etc etc
It's actually really impressive how bad it is considering Si is actually English himself.
Old Hellblazer use of swearing vs Ni Hellblazer

Except replace all the Ryan Reynoldsisms with tame, teenagers levels of coarse language. There's just no grit. It's all too safe, nothing pushes the boundaries anymore.



It also doesn't capture the moody atmosphere anymore, it's all just- "Let's go, come on, it's an adventure it's all bright and sunny and sparkly and 'Oh that Constantine, he's a real rascal and he'll fuck you over (except nobody ever pays the price anymore because he's now trapped in the endless DC cycle of status quo) and isn't he gritty and so mysterious and a reluctant hero but deep down he really wants to help'"


If anybody's main takeaway from this post is that I want Conjob to go around calling people nigger and faggot indiscriminately then, frankly, we've failed as a society.

 

[Begemot]

My main issue is the language used is like a bad impression of the real Hellblazer, it's like reading an American redditor doing that unfunny impression of English that retards love, you know the one; "Oi oi guv, you got a loicence for that magic" etc etc
It's actually really impressive how bad it is considering Si is actually English himself.
Old Hellblazer use of swearing vs Ni Hellblazer
https://youtube.com/watch?v=W0vQzxZ_Ddk
Except replace all the Ryan Reynoldsisms with tame, teenagers levels of coarse language. There's just no grit. It's all too safe, nothing pushes the boundaries anymore.
View attachment 5433919
View attachment 5433929

It also doesn't capture the moody atmosphere anymore, it's all just- "Let's go, come on, it's an adventure it's all bright and sunny and sparkly and 'Oh that Constantine, he's a real rascal and he'll fuck you over (except nobody ever pays the price anymore because he's now trapped in the endless DC cycle of status quo) and isn't he gritty and so mysterious and a reluctant hero but deep down he really wants to help'"

View attachment 5433926
If anybody's main takeaway from this post is that I want Conjob to go around calling people nigger and faggot indiscriminately then, frankly, we've failed as a society.

Apropos to that last image, when I first read Hellblazer it was through the trade paperbacks and initially Paul Jenkin's run wasn't there, it was like they had airbrushed him out of Constantine's history, maybe they saw him as too English, too subtle. Sean Phillips makes him look a bit dingier as well compared to Steve Dillon's square jawed persona. The fact people hated Azarello's version weirded me out as well, he felt a bit more chaotic there.

I agree, Si Spurrier's run is a bit above adequate but still better than anything past Mike Carey. I would have liked to have seen what he did if his last series didn't get cancelled.

 

[Nick Obre]

I agree, Si Spurrier's run is a bit above adequate but still better than anything past Mike Carey. I would have liked to have seen what he did if his last series didn't get cancelled.

Read "Damn Them All", also by Spurrier. It's a Hellblazer story in disguise. Essentially, John dies and Gemma takes his place as the go-to occult bollockser in London. But the rules of magic seem to have changed overnight, and Gemma has to figure out what's happening, and what this has to do with John's death. Of course, they're not called John or Gemma, but you know it's them.

I haven't finished it yet (only 6 issues, I'm about halway through) and it's pretty good, it gives me an approximation of the feel the good eras of Hellblazer would give me back then. It is, sadly, peppered with faggy leftism shit, like mention of a far right incel school shooter, or the only genuinely good person in the story just happens to be a gay muslim homeless Ethiopian immigrant, which for sure is due to Spurrier's proclivities, but since these things tend to happen in dialogue or inner monologues, for the most part you can take them as the characters' opinions rather than a stated truth. Kind of like whenever John would shit on Thatcher or Tories or something (comes to mind that time where John is ranting about "how after all this could these bloody cunts vote tory?" and the bartender goes like "I did so maybe shut up, John." or something like that).
But beyond that, feels pretty decent.

 

[Jetpack Himmler]

Dave Cockrum on the X-men.

Dave Cockrum was actually at DC in the early seventies where he drew the Legion of Super-Heroes backup in Superboy. He was most notable for redesigning the majority of Legion's uniforms and creating ERG-1/Wildfire, who was the first new Legionnaire of the Bronze Age. My understanding was that Cockrum left the DC after editor Murray Boltinoff refused to return the double-page spread of Duo Damsel/Bouncing Boy's wedding from Superboy and the Legion #200 because the company didn't return the art back to the artist. I haven't verified it, but I heard that his successor, Mike Grell, got the job when he walked into Boltinoff's office moments after Cockrum stormed out.

 

[Nick Obre]

Read "Damn Them All", also by Spurrier. It's a Hellblazer story in disguise. Essentially, John dies and Gemma takes his place as the go-to occult bollockser in London. But the rules of magic seem to have changed overnight, and Gemma has to figure out what's happening, and what this has to do with John's death. Of course, they're not called John or Gemma, but you know it's them.

I haven't finished it yet (only 6 issues, I'm about halway through) and it's pretty good, it gives me an approximation of the feel the good eras of Hellblazer would give me back then. It is, sadly, peppered with faggy leftism shit, like mention of a far right incel school shooter, or the only genuinely good person in the story just happens to be a gay muslim homeless Ethiopian immigrant, which for sure is due to Spurrier's proclivities, but since these things tend to happen in dialogue or inner monologues, for the most part you can take them as the characters' opinions rather than a stated truth. Kind of like whenever John would shit on Thatcher or Tories or something (comes to mind that time where John is ranting about "how after all this could these bloody cunts vote tory?" and the bartender goes like "I did so maybe shut up, John." or something like that).
But beyond that, feels pretty decent.

I was wrong. It's not just 6 issues, I'd read it was a limted 6 issue series, but it seems it did well enough to get promoted to ongoing. It's at issue 8 so far.

I read up to 6, and I maintain my previous opinion. It's pretty good, feels like Hellblazer (not like a peak Hellblazer era but not post-Carey either), with unfortunate bits of modern shitlib politics that, while they do cause a tad of an eye roll, are not enough to ruin the experience. I forgot to mention the art is by the guy from The Walking Dead, so it's fittingly solid and grounded.

So I continue to recommend it if you've got a Hellblazer itch, it'll scratch it much better than anything DC is doing with John these days.

 

[Grumpy Pickle Rick]

I liked it better when venom was just an alien slime from the moon who just wanted to eat people.

I don’t know if this is popular or unpopular opinion, but I feel like the Symbiotes have gotten overrated.

 

[HodgePodgeRogerDodger]

I don’t know if this is popular or unpopular opinion, but I feel like the Symbiotes have gotten overrated.

Didn’t they stop being an alien that was in-love with Spider-Man to being Green Lanterns to being parts of a really try hard Chaos God?

I feel like the original idea of Alien ex-gf, but as symbiotic organism was cool. Everything else is try hard gay shit. Wasn’t Eddie a work associate who got pissed at Peter for a number of reasons and may have been dying from alcoholism?

 

[Nick Obre]

Didn’t they stop being an alien that was in-love with Spider-Man to being Green Lanterns to being parts of a really try hard Chaos God?

I feel like the original idea of Alien ex-gf, but as symbiotic organism was cool. Everything else is try hard gay shit. Wasn’t Eddie a work associate who got pissed at Peter for a number of reasons and may have been dying from alcoholism?

They're still parts of the tryhard Chaos God, but now they're also kind of extratemporal and extradimensional and Eddie is some kind of new Chaos God who's been fighting versions of himself from different points in his future life. Also there's a ton of new Symbiotes out there, I don't even know how many or what happened to the other ones.

 

[HodgePodgeRogerDodger]

They're still parts of the tryhard Chaos God, but now they're also kind of extratemporal and extradimensional and Eddie is some kind of new Chaos God who's been fighting versions of himself from different points in his future life. Also there's a ton of new Symbiotes out there, I don't even know how many or what happened to the other ones.

That sounds needlessly complex for a Spider-Man character. It reminds me of that gay Spider-Totem shit in the early 2000’s.

It needlessly adds an unnecessary dimension to a character rather than the character having to deal with magic bullshit.

 

[Nick Obre]

That sounds needlessly complex for a Spider-Man character. It reminds me of that gay Spider-Totem shit in the early 2000’s.

It needlessly adds an unnecessary dimension to a character rather than the character having to deal with magic bullshit.

Because of the whole Knull stuff, with him being connected directly to Gorr, or to cosmic stuff through Knowhere, Wraith, Silver Surfer, Captain Universe, etc, Venom and the symbiotes are now arguably as much of Thor/Cosmic characters as Spidey characters.

I won't be the one arguing it, but arguably.

 

[Kerr Avon]

It feels wrong to see this with the Black Label and Sandman universe logos

Patton Oswalt doing the foreword is funny considering the theories about him

 

[Begemot]

Read "Damn Them All", also by Spurrier. It's a Hellblazer story in disguise. Essentially, John dies and Gemma takes his place as the go-to occult bollockser in London. But the rules of magic seem to have changed overnight, and Gemma has to figure out what's happening, and what this has to do with John's death. Of course, they're not called John or Gemma, but you know it's them.

I haven't finished it yet (only 6 issues, I'm about halway through) and it's pretty good, it gives me an approximation of the feel the good eras of Hellblazer would give me back then. It is, sadly, peppered with faggy leftism shit, like mention of a far right incel school shooter, or the only genuinely good person in the story just happens to be a gay muslim homeless Ethiopian immigrant, which for sure is due to Spurrier's proclivities, but since these things tend to happen in dialogue or inner monologues, for the most part you can take them as the characters' opinions rather than a stated truth. Kind of like whenever John would shit on Thatcher or Tories or something (comes to mind that time where John is ranting about "how after all this could these bloody cunts vote tory?" and the bartender goes like "I did so maybe shut up, John." or something like that).
But beyond that, feels pretty decent.

Yeah, this is way better than Si' Hellblazer run, world-building is great, I can also turn off the politics, Probably better than Carey's run if I'm honest, it's very dense and the magical notes are illuminating and funny. Great recommendation, lad.....

 

[MirrorNoir]

Apropos to that last image, when I first read Hellblazer it was through the trade paperbacks and initially Paul Jenkin's run wasn't there, it was like they had airbrushed him out of Constantine's history, maybe they saw him as too English, too subtle. Sean Phillips makes him look a bit dingier as well compared to Steve Dillon's square jawed persona. The fact people hated Azarello's version weirded me out as well, he felt a bit more chaotic there.

I agree, Si Spurrier's run is a bit above adequate but still better than anything past Mike Carey. I would have liked to have seen what he did if his last series didn't get cancelled.

Jenkins run was MIA collection wise because it sucked. The entire period between the Ennis and Ellis run was a huge gap for a decent amoint of tim given how bad the book was at the time and it wasnt until Azzerellos run that DC even got serious about collecting Hellblazer in terms of regular release trades

 

[Nick Obre]

Fuck that, I really liked Jenkins. Or at least I remember liking it a lot back when I read it like 15 years ago.

Everyone else focused on other aspects of his character, but Jenkins made him feel really human. I liked that.

 

[Begemot]

Jenkins run was MIA collection wise because it sucked. The entire period between the Ennis and Ellis run was a huge gap for a decent amoint of tim given how bad the book was at the time and it wasnt until Azzerellos run that DC even got serious about collecting Hellblazer in terms of regular release trades

Nah, doomerboi, @Nick Obre is right, Jenkins run is still good, just a bit more subtle and not as bombastic as Garth Ennis' run, the anniversary issue is a pure joy,