Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

It's because they are redditors and don't like the religion stuff in DS9.

Another criticism of DS9 is that it explores the limits of the Federation. There is more political intrigue. Rather than a single rogue officer storyline (Maxwell in TNG), you had full-on conspiracies in DS9 (Leyton et al). The Federation hides its failures (e.g. the genetically enhanced rejects being institutionalized against their will). You even have Starfleet itself agreeing to manufacturing evidence to trick another power into supporting a war. Section 31 also rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.
Mike and Rich have actually said that DS9 doesn't feel much like Star Trek and kinda implied that the current darkness of ST started with it. And they are correct. Voyager has more in common with TNG and TOS, not just because it's a ship rather than a starbase,

Star Trek promised us a future of space exploration and hyper competence....

Reality: The Artemis mission crew can't open both version of Outlook and need help.

I want off this ride.
To be fair, it's not the astronauts' fault. It's like installing W11 in the Enterprise D.
 
Do it. Don't feel like you need to have some sort of cinematic universe with mine or Johnny's green texts.
Maybe I should do some about an admiral or ambassador having to deal with constant political shenanigans and incompetence of the political leaders.
 
Mike and Rich have actually said that DS9 doesn't feel much like Star Trek and kinda implied that the current darkness of ST started with it.
Section 31 felt like the moment it got 2edgy4me.

Inventing a genocide virus for the Changelings and then holding the cure hostage... “uhhh we made these goo people way too strong, how do we nerf them?” 1000131489.png

At that point you might as well just have Garak mash the big red button and unload every torpedo on the Defiant straight into their homeworld and call it a day.

1000131487.jpg

Sloan doesn't really work as a character, either, if his goal was to use Bashir for espionage (why him?), there were better ways to do it than psychologically torturing him before going "computer, end program!"

Bashir and O'Brien going full Marathon Man on Sloan would have been satisfying, if Sloan didn’t immediately bite down on his future cyanide tablet and force everyone into that ridiculous VR brain-heist. :lossmanjack:
 
>Sloan and S31
>"Hurr, we need tough MEN doing TOUGH MEN shit to protect paradise durr!"
I've recently started reading some fan fic. That massive one million+ word monster goes excessively down that route. The edgier, the better. It's hilarious in that sad way, because... you know... Starfleet exists and they're not above doing the HARD TOUGH stuff HARD TOUGH MEN do if that's required of them.

People have really fucking weird ideas on how espionage works.
 
Do the ambassador idea.
Hehehe, I might.
It's a lot of homework.
Yes, but I am so tired of "hahah hurr durr cool 2edgy4you black ops"-stuff. Should I ever write Trek-fan fiction in a semi-serious manner, I'd probably do a story about a low to mid ranking Starfleet Intelligence analyst that's part of the "Naval Intelligence, Cardassian Desk"-department or something of that nature. It would be super dry technical stuff about spoonhead military movements, SIGINT, analysis of their ship classes and individual boats, their commanders, etc. pp.

The shit you have to do as a military, right, to stay ahead of the curve. Blowing up people and shooting rifles is what anyone can do. Drawing the right conclusions from a stream of information that's 75% bullshit, 20% propaganda bullshit and 5% "maybe it's bullshit, but I believe it" is the real hard work.
 
I can deal with S31 existing in the ST universe, but not being the thing that defines the franchise, which seems to be the intention of nuTrek tv shows. Or worst, the bad attempts to make it like this.

Section 31 should have been like that episode when the Enterprise-D crew was abducted by aliens from another dimension. It was a terror episode that let us thinking and was never talked again. Same way, we should have known that Section 31 exists, but it's so in the shadows that we never see them again, ever, we only know that they are somewhere around moving things behind the curtain but we don't know what, who, or why.

I agree that the best terror is the one you can't see. That's why the Borg don't feel the same after BoBW. They should have kept them away until First Contact. The aliens might have given up on us, or simply are trying to invade us, we don't know, that's what makes you shudder. S31 should have been let this way and never touched again, unless is something big in which the actual morals of the Federation triumph above them.
 
Yes, but I am so tired of "hahah hurr durr cool 2edgy4you black ops"-stuff. Should I ever write Trek-fan fiction in a semi-serious manner, I'd probably do a story about a low to mid ranking Starfleet Intelligence analyst that's part of the "Naval Intelligence, Cardassian Desk"-department or something of that nature. It would be super dry technical stuff about spoonhead military movements, SIGINT, analysis of their ship classes and individual boats, their commanders, etc. pp.
That's what real intel officers do. It is a lot of paperwork and meetings.
I can deal with S31 existing in the ST universe, but not being the thing that defines the franchise, which seems to be the intention of nuTrek tv shows. Or worst, the bad attempts to make it like this.

Section 31 should have been like that episode when the Enterprise-D crew was abducted by aliens from another dimension. It was a terror episode that let us thinking and was never talked again. Same way, we should have known that Section 31 exists, but it's so in the shadows that we never see them again, ever, we only know that they are somewhere around moving things behind the curtain but we don't know what, who, or why.

I agree that the best terror is the one you can't see. That's why the Borg don't feel the same after BoBW. They should have kept them away until First Contact. The aliens might have given up on us, or simply are trying to invade us, we don't know, that's what makes you shudder. S31 should have been let this way and never touched again, unless is something big in which the actual morals of the Federation triumph above them.
Section 31 should be used for high-risk, low-footprint missions requiring deniable assets. Using Bashir to change the composition of the Romulan Continuing Committee is a good example of this, even if the way it was written in "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" was very dramatic. S31 having a science team to engineer a genocidal bioweapon is, I admit, way too high-footprint and would leave way too many loose ends for a realistic secret agency. Having a sooper sick nasty spaceship is ridiculous.

Wanna know what secret agents did in real life during the Cold War? They jumped from cargo planes into jungles with very little gear and usually either trained local friendlies or hiked to an extremely remote facility to spy on the enemy. They were always outgunned and outmanned because their job wasn't to engage the enemy. If the enemy found them out, they got the fuck out ASAP. The kind of kinetic military stuff that writers conflate with the CIA is reserved for special forces which are not supposed to commit to pitched battles. "Chain of Command" in TNG was a good example of this. Special forces are for quick, precision operations and those operations can (and do) go wrong if intelligence is bad or they cannot exfiltrate (which is what happened to Picard).

They are separate operations and assets, but TV and film often combines them for simplicity, drama, and because the writers are making shit up.
 
The Na'kuhl definately had subagendas in that whole ordeal but they wanted the Federation to not exist in the future they came from just like the Sphere builders.
I guess you could think of it as another iron in the fire the Sphere builders had to have more avenues for victory without being directly involved
Their reasoning in STO was the Federation were doing temporal adventures and fucked their sun six ways to Tuesday. To where it was barely at room temperature and the Feds pulled the "Temporal Prime Directive" card on why they won't go back in time to unfuck their fuckup after the Na'kuhl had ask about it.
 
That's what real intel officers do. It is a lot of paperwork and meetings.
It's also what the average idiot would think of as 'boring', whatever that is supposed to be. I always found the work of analysts much more interesting than the shit the field operatives did and do. Without the paperwork and the intellectual overhead done by the pencil pushers and nerds, Sloan's edgy spy shit would fail in creative and horrifying ways. I'm tired of pretending otherwise.

S31 having a science team to engineer a genocidal bioweapon is, I admit, way too high-footprint and would leave way too many loose ends for a realistic secret agency. Having a sooper sick nasty spaceship is ridiculous.
It would depend. If S31 has say, less than ten biologists and geneticists working on the virus and has a super computer for the excessive number crunching they still need to do, I'd say it's not unreasonable for them to come up with a potent anti-goo people-bioweapon in two or three years. The question here is how complicit organizations like Starfleet are. DS9 gave us hints and bits and pieces to draw several conclusions, but most of them are... unsatisfactory.
 
The main reason spy shit in Star Trek is usually unrealistic is because the vast majority of people have no idea how it works in real life. You ask your typical normie and they'll talk about the CIA and maybe the NSA but have no clue there's 40 something intel agencies in the military and government, most of which you've never heard of because you don't have clearance to know what they do. My head canon is that Section 31 is more of a blanket term for the dozens of intel agencies and departments in the Star Fleet and Federation bureaucracy.
 
The main reason spy shit in Star Trek is usually unrealistic is because the vast majority of people have no idea how it works in real life. You ask your typical normie and they'll talk about the CIA and maybe the NSA but have no clue there's 40 something intel agencies in the military and government, most of which you've never heard of because you don't have clearance to know what they do. My head canon is that Section 31 is more of a blanket term for the dozens of intel agencies and departments in the Star Fleet and Federation bureaucracy.
Most normies wouldn't even know that the CIA isn't allowed to operate on US territory. That's why the NSA exists and why also certain departments of the FBI are equipped and trained to function as counter-intelligence organizations.

So, in this context, I kinda assume that Section 31 is a sub-organization of Starfleet Intelligence. SI provides a whole lot of different kinds of intelligence: naval/military, economic, political, counter-intelligence, counter-insurgency/terrorism/organized crime, psyops/agitprop and about two dozen others. What S31 is supposed to do is quite hard to define here; I think they're technically some sort of "Brandenburger"-special operations gig that primarily acts on naval/military and political intelligence gathered on foreign interstellar regimes. What they (usually) don't do is gather HUMINT and SIGINT themselves or doing analyst work. They rely on information provided by the other departments.
 
Section 31 amounts to, "For the federation to exist we need evil James Bond." It's just not the sort of shocking realist insight the people obsessed with it think it is.
 
It's also what the average idiot would think of as 'boring', whatever that is supposed to be. I always found the work of analysts much more interesting than the shit the field operatives did and do. Without the paperwork and the intellectual overhead done by the pencil pushers and nerds, Sloan's edgy spy shit would fail in creative and horrifying ways. I'm tired of pretending otherwise.
I like how Sloan beamed out when he was supposedly vaporized. Nice little story inversion of Ambassador T'Pel's escape.
It would depend. If S31 has say, less than ten biologists and geneticists working on the virus and has a super computer for the excessive number crunching they still need to do, I'd say it's not unreasonable for them to come up with a potent anti-goo people-bioweapon in two or three years. The question here is how complicit organizations like Starfleet are. DS9 gave us hints and bits and pieces to draw several conclusions, but most of them are... unsatisfactory.
Our CIA developed bioweapons with gain of function research. Section 31 would probably have a research installation built into an asteroid among billions in a belt somewhere, likely cloaked (since it's not a ship, hurdurrr). As for complicity the brass were all in line tricking the Romulans into the war, and no one at medical would help Bashir try to cure Odo. The best hope for the Dominion War was the disease. That Sisko would prophets ex machina was not a given. Some lonely black ops genetic engineer/s had an Oppenheimer and no one even knows. Sloan probably had their memories altered on completion of the project.
 
I don't think that's it. I've spoken to other Trek fans in-person and, independently of each other, they always say "it didn't feel like Star Trek." The problem was that it's not set on a space ship and there's little to no exploration, which is a core theme of TOS, TNG, VOY, and ENT. You also need to watch DS9 and invest more time because there's more continuity - not that the other series lacked continuity, but you could not sit down and watch a single episode of DS9 the same way you could the other series.

Another criticism of DS9 is that it explores the limits of the Federation. There is more political intrigue. Rather than a single rogue officer storyline (Maxwell in TNG), you had full-on conspiracies in DS9 (Leyton et al). The Federation hides its failures (e.g. the genetically enhanced rejects being institutionalized against their will). You even have Starfleet itself agreeing to manufacturing evidence to trick another power into supporting a war. Section 31 also rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.

DS9 was very different from Trek shows before and after it, making it a little controversial. It doesn't help that the cast and crew of other Trek series shit on DS9. Shatner is a legendary asshole, Stewart was openly hostile on set for the first season, Jeri Ryan slept with Brannon Braga to get her role, and so on. That gets swept under the rug, but DS9 and Brooks is the outlier that... produced seven seasons without any weird controversies, except for Terry Farrell getting fired because she wouldn't sleep with Rick Berman? People make shit up about Avery Brooks to this day.
I think the problem comes from the idea that DS9 is this frontier fort and instead of going to the strange new worlds and new species, those species and worlds would be coming to them. And it's a great concept, but it kind of gets shoved to the side in the middle and later seasons in favor of the soap opera, Klingon/Bajorean/Cardassian, and Dominion story lines. Now add in the lack of a singular and unified purpose to the cast. In TOS and TNG, the crew are all Starfleet and explorers/soldiers/whatever they need to be. In DS9 you have Starfleet led by this demigod figure who has this weird way of enunciating and the Bajoreans who are led by this ex-rebel who is constantly overemoting and yelling. You don't have that Kirk-Spock-McCoy or Picard-Riker-Data paradigm of how the captain tries to solve a problem in favor of the ensemble cast soap opera shows (to be fair, those also were in TNG).

We did go back to that kind of a show with VOY and more or less with ENT. DS9 just didn't fit with the rest of the series and despite its successes there were times when it seemed like DS9 was just too different because it was and moved away from its own structure.
 
I think the problem comes from the idea that DS9 is this frontier fort and instead of going to the strange new worlds and new species, those species and worlds would be coming to them. And it's a great concept, but it kind of gets shoved to the side in the middle and later seasons in favor of the soap opera, Klingon/Bajorean/Cardassian, and Dominion story lines. Now add in the lack of a singular and unified purpose to the cast. In TOS and TNG, the crew are all Starfleet and explorers/soldiers/whatever they need to be. In DS9 you have Starfleet led by this demigod figure who has this weird way of enunciating and the Bajoreans who are led by this ex-rebel who is constantly overemoting and yelling. You don't have that Kirk-Spock-McCoy or Picard-Riker-Data paradigm of how the captain tries to solve a problem in favor of the ensemble cast soap opera shows (to be fair, those also were in TNG).
That's where I thought DS9 was more interesting: with the exception of Sisko and Jake, who are father and son, and Sisko and Dax, who are mentee and mentor, most of the characters are at cross-purposes in the beginning of the show and have different motivations. They are thrust into the mission and develop their relationships over time. To me, it feels a bit more natural. I wouldn't call it soap-opera-y. DS9 was very different, I agree there, but I liked it more. The characters were more interesting.

You have Sisko, who was selected for the assignment because Starfleet needed to send a low-profile babysitter. No one knew that Bajor would become a critical strategic asset until the wormhole shows up. Then you have O'Brien, who takes the position to move up in rank. Jadzia is a pretty new and up-and-coming officer, assigned to DS9 ostensibly for the diplomatic experience of the Dax symbiont and to give Jadzia career experience. Kira is basically sent to DS9 because no one on Bajor wants to deal with her. Quark is there because he's stuck and Odo doesn't know anything else. Bashir is the only person who wants to be there because he's a sperg.

By the end of the series, Sisko has found and accomplished his purpose after having none. O'Brien, the family man, finally gets a stable and cushy posting on Earth. Kira resolves her PTSD, Odo learns and reckons with the nature of his existence (similarly to Sisko), Quark goes on being the eternal scoundrel, and Bashir gets to keep doing what he always wanted: frontier medicine. Worf resolves his lingering identity issues from TNG onward. The only character who really gets screwed by the writers is Dax, whom the writers and directors never really knew what to do with.
 
Do you think a Tal Shair, Obsidan Order and Section 31 focused series could work if it was JUST about spy games, infiltration, espionage and politics?
 
Do you think a Tal Shair, Obsidan Order and Section 31 focused series could work if it was JUST about spy games, infiltration, espionage and politics?
No, maybe in a generation but current writers are to retarded to pull it off. You also need some breathing room for episodes less you restrict it to a mini series.

Six hour long episodes would be the cap I think for that kind of focused story telling.
 
Do you think a Tal Shair, Obsidan Order and Section 31 focused series could work if it was JUST about spy games, infiltration, espionage and politics?
No. The reality is that the Tal Shiar, Obsidian Order, and Section 31 should all work in tandem with other moving parts on the proverbial chessboard. Making it all about the spook agencies would end up in flanderization.
 
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