Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[Voltaire]

Yeah, but he got cucked by a space ghost on that Scottish planet.

The whole approach to sex on TNG was weird, and maybe explains why so many autists and sex preverts are attracted to it.

So, theoretically the characters get their fuck on sometimes. But they don't act like it. There's no petty jealousy, passion, obsession, horniness, sexual tension, bickering, or any real human consequences at all.*

Riker gets fat and then cucked by Worf, and acts like everything is fine. It doesn't affect the plot or the interaction of the characters in any way. It's played as if it has no more significance to him than a holodeck game. Which is eerie, when you think about it.

Roddenberry, who was a weirdo, wanted to depict a utopian world where humans have none of the complicated emotional stuff that makes them human. At least it wasn't Dawson's Creek in space, I guess.

*Except for Miles O'Brien, who convincingly portrays a man who married a stone-cold bitch and is now dying inside, spending day after day standing at the transporter console with a thousand yard stare.

**Also Geordi getting oneitis over his Holodeck waifu, which was both true to the character and also lol

O'Brian enjoyed fighting and drinking and thought getting an azn gf would be low maintenance but you can never tell if you get a good one or a bitchy one till after marriage. Plus his son is half azn so will do a phaser shooting in space school at some point and deep down O'Brian knows it. All he wants to do is kill some fuckin' Cardy's but it's not PC to do that anymore so he just has another Talaxian ale at Quark's and hopes for another War.
As for sex, Starfleet is full of repressed nerds who are over compensating with their rank and science autism. Back on Earth people still bang like degenerates.

 

[Flexo]

. If you need to watch any Ferengi-centric DS9 episode, pick The Magnificent Ferengi. A really funny episode though it helps to know a lot of context if you're going in blind.

If you need a contextless ferengi story, watch "little green men."

 

[Cyril Sneer]

I'm not a woman, though.

Death to fudashis then, whatever.

Sisko is hands down the greatest Star Trek captain of all time, because he's a realistically drawn character with recognizably human motivations and flaws, and deals with moral dilemmas where it's not obvious there even *is* a pure, good and righteous option.

Picard was elevated by Stewart's acting chops and gravitas, but look past that and he's a fundamentally silly and unrealistic character. He's a well-intentioned liberal college professor... IN SPAAACE! The truth is, he'd probably end up being mugged for his space-wallet at Farpoint Station, by alien scumbags who don't give a shit about the bald windbag's naive lectures on ethics and diplomacy.

Remember when he had the chance to finally wipe out the Borg, after they had murdered billions of innocent people and kidnapped and techno-raped Picard personally? And he was like "no... the Borg have human rights too XD XD!"

Ridiculous, fake and gay. It'd be like if a mid-level American officer in WW2 had an opportunity to singlehandedly take down Nazi Germany and decided to stroke his chin while congratulating himself on his virtue instead. He'd probably be court-martialled and then shot, and rightly so.

Sisko is what you actually want in a CO. He's a fighter, a man who is always ready to get his hands dirty to protect the people depending on him. Because outside of the comfortable bubble the Federation exists in, it's a tough universe out there. There's all sorts of people and things trying to do you, kill you, rip you off, everything. If you're going to survive out there, you've really got to know where your phaser is.

Also, he's a good Dad. And this helps explain the difference between DS9 and lesser Treks. There's a tendency in science fiction in general and Star Trek in particular for the protagonists to be strangely Peter Pan like free spirits untethered to wives and children and meaningful personal relationships you can't just walk away from to have space adventures.

Kirk boffed the alien chick of the week like a galactic James Bond. Picard only had his fish and his sex tourism to Risa. Archer had a dog. Like most people, I didn't watch Voyager.

This is fine for the purposes of writing adolescent genre fiction, but it's ultimately shallow and unsatisfying for neurotypical adult viewers because it's not a rounded or realistic depiction of actual human beings. Sisko had to juggle commanding a space station with being a single father, which gave him a depth and humanity we rarely see in sci fi.

Good points about Sisko (especially his being a family man) but I feel compelled to point out that Kirk's status as a habitual womanizer is more of a meme than an accurate reflection of how he behaved on the show.

O'Brian enjoyed fighting and drinking and thought getting an azn gf would be low maintenance but you can never tell if you get a good one or a bitchy one till after marriage. Plus his son is half azn so will do a phaser shooting in space school at some point and deep down O'Brian knows it.

Kirayoshi O'Brien also has a Bajoran surrogate mother so who knows what kind of affect that had on his pre-natal development...

As for sex, Starfleet is full of repressed nerds who are over compensating with their rank and science autism. Back on Earth people still bang like degenerates.

Roddenberry suggested at some point that Trek-Earth should be a planet-sized nudist colony.

 

[MembersSchoolPizza]

Death to fudashis then, whatever.

Had to look that one up, hadn't heard that one before.

 

[ZMOT]

So, theoretically the characters get their fuck on sometimes. But they don't act like it. There's no petty jealousy, passion, obsession, horniness, sexual tension, bickering, or any real human consequences at all.*

recently rewatched tng s1, riker got real bitchy when troi just looked at another guy, didn't keep him from banging the female leader of a whole planet. second episode also literally had a whole crew killing itself by throwing the biggest fratparty of the quadrant (involuntarily, but still).

in-universe you could explain it with the enterprise being the flagship and a prestigious post which was highly sought after, so you only get a certain type of crew. we also only see the POV from the bridge officers, not what happens elsewhere. barkley showed a bit of it, but he was quite the sperg and the story was centered around him improving over time. the only series which kinda showed it was ironically voyager where they had to get even the shit rank & file in shape since they couldn't transfer them off the ship (pretty good episode imo).
it kinda makes sense that they tried to portray the best and brightest of starfleet not thinking with their dick and being "above" such silly notions.

real shame we never got a tng mirror universe episode.

Roddenberry suggested at some point that Trek-Earth should be a planet-sized nudist colony.

maybe he was onto something. why give a fuck when you on the regular can get dommed by our own futa loli harem on the holodeck? just look at the weird shit people are into right now...

I don't know why so many people vociferously defend TNG as if its peak Star Trek. The worst stereotypes regarding Trek - boring, "heady," pretentious, obnoxiously liberal - really refer to TNG era Trek. That's not to say that TOS had its moments of liberal sanctimony, but the characters were iconic and lovable and the stories were generally good. The TNG era represents the age of decadence that is produced by good times.

because most series don't deal with an utopia. it's either shit hitting the fan and dealing with it or trying to prevent shit hitting the fan. TNG worked because it had good writing (usually), good actors and dealt with topics you wouldn't usually see or think about watching a tv serial without trying to cram an agenda down your throat.
the irony is lot of people say TNG wouldn't work anymore in 2020 (someone better tell the orville), but if you look at the average media landscape it's even worse now with either absolute infantile and/or retarded shit or a GOT clone trying to out-rape the competition - which I wouldn't mind, I can enjoy the former but not if that's the only 2 options.

or to put it more simple, TNG is nerd slice of life, some people like it some don't. no harm no foul.

 

[Prompt Critical]

**Also Geordi getting oneitis over his Holodeck waifu, which was both true to the character and also lol

There were at least three different unrelated episodes where the plot was "crewmember won't stop jerking off in the holosuite and it's starting to affect his job performance and personal life", one each with Barclay, LaForge and Riker. Probably the most realistically human behavior in TNG.

 

[Flexo]

That's a big problem with the show. Mikey is literally a Mary Sue, which itself was a parody of obnoxiously OP self-insert characters.

This bugs me so much. Vulcan is established as having higher gravity and thinner atmosphere than earth. Sure humans could stay there for short periods, but an extended stay - especially after Burnham had already gone through her first growth spurt - would be devastating to a human's health.

They also demonstrate exceptional mental acuity - to the point that Spock took 3 tests simultaneously - which I'm sorry, not even the smartest human on earth can quite replicate. But no, not only is Michael able to thrive on the planet without medical aid, but she even beats out native born vulcans to be top of her class.

I've had arguments with other spergs over whether Mikey is a vulcan or not (no joke, one reply was "she's a vulcan culturally, just not biologically"). That's what angers me most about her. She's turned one of the classic aliens of Star Trek into just a cosplay*.

*I mean it makes a bit of sense with the Klingons which are a more spiritual people, but the Vulcans are supposed to be logical.

EDIT: I should also say, it would be fine to have Mikey work her ass off just to not be the bottom of the class. Give her something to struggle against her whole life, she might have been a compelling character then.

 

[UnKillFill]

Also, he's a good Dad...

...Who left his son and pregnant wife in the last episode to go out for a pack of menthols and never came back.

I kid, I kid... kind of... Sisko is my favorite captain as well. But way to further a stereotype about black fathers DS9.

 

[Cyril Sneer]

...Who left his son and pregnant wife in the last episode to go out for a pack of menthols and never came back.

I kid, I kid... kind of... Sisko is my favorite captain as well. But way to further a stereotype about black fathers DS9.

If memory serves, Avery Brooks was just as pissed off by the writers' planned conclusion for Sisko's arc in the series as Marc Alaimo was with Dukat's, and explicitly because he didn't want Sisko to be a "disappeared black dad."

 

[Intelligent Calcium]

Remember when he had the chance to finally wipe out the Borg, after they had murdered billions of innocent people and kidnapped and techno-raped Picard personally? And he was like "no... the Borg have human rights too XD XD!"

Ridiculous, fake and gay. It'd be like if a mid-level American officer in WW2 had an opportunity to singlehandedly take down Nazi Germany and decided to stroke his chin while congratulating himself on his virtue instead. He'd probably be court-martialled and then shot, and rightly so.

That example actually made sense to me. The Borg still were pretty nebulous at that point and we're talking about complete genocide of a species. This is less bringing down the nazi regime and more Japanese scientists from Unit 731 sending plague balloons over the pacific in hopes of wiping out the entire population of the US.

There are way better examples of Picard's moralizing crossing over into complete sociopathy anyway. Remember when he compared the crystalline entity wiping out entire planets worth of sentient life to "whales eating squid" and defended its right to feed? Or when he was willing to let a whole civilization perish in a natural disaster that he could easily prevent because muh prime directive and will of the universe and shit? I guess Picard's major downfall as a character is that he is massively idealized, but can only be as intellectually and morally advanced as the people currently writing him.

 

[UnKillFill]

If memory serves, Avery Brooks was just as pissed off by the writers' planned conclusion for Sisko's arc in the series as Marc Alaimo was with Dukat's, and explicitly because he didn't want Sisko to be a "disappeared black dad."

I may have said it here before, (and if so, I'll say it again,) one of my favorite things about Sisko (Up until that last episode) is that despite being a captain (commander at first), and black, he was (almost**) never played as "The Black Captain."

**I would have liked "Badda-Bing Badda-Bang" A *lot* more without that random, totally out of character, mini-rant Sisko did where he he said he wasn't going to join the rest of his crew in helping Vic Fontaine (A holographic character, who had up to that point been nothing but a friend to literally every single member of the crew who he had ever met) retake his holosuite program from mobsters... because (In this episode's Sisko's words) "the 'real' version of Vegas or whatever 'wouldn't have allowed black people.' " (I know he comes around by the end, and good for him, but it was a stupid statement from a character that I otherwise loved and still do), it just really took me out of an episode that I probably would have otherwise liked a hell of a lot more..

Even if I bought that Sisko had *ever* faced any sort of racial discrimination in his life in the 'peaceful' Federation, and so *earned* that racial chip he randomly had on his shoulder in that one random part of one episode... (And for the record, I don't buy it. Racism isn't a thing in Trek, or at least it wasn't before Star Trek: Picard...) his criticism is still bullshit. The closest present-world analogue that I, and probably most other people, immediately think of when they see the fictional Vic Fontane character, is Frank Sinatra.

Sinatra is still to this day *famous* for his (Especially unusual at the time) *support* of black people When that wasn't even a particularly political position: Citation.

Yeah in that episode Sisko came around and helped his friends, but Sisko's criticism was kind of stupid, and it made no sense in the context of Trek, or even out of it.

 

[AverageAnimeWatcher]

Stewart is a tremendous actor (though a poor creative mind). The only reason I have to like Picard is because he is played well. That's about it. I don't know why so many people vociferously defend TNG as if its peak Star Trek. The worst stereotypes regarding Trek - boring, "heady," pretentious, obnoxiously liberal - really refer to TNG era Trek. That's not to say that TOS had its moments of liberal sanctimony, but the characters were iconic and lovable and the stories were generally good. The TNG era represents the age of decadence that is produced by good times.

I'm fairly new to Trek, but despite my newfound love for it, I gotta admit I was on the camp that thought it was boring and never gave it a chance. The Orville and DS9 changed that.

DS9 showed me how much potential the trek universe has. It can be a mystery and exploration tale or even be an amazing political thriller. This universe is very rich. It can be House of cards, the Twilight Zone, or even Game of thrones without stoping being Trek.

In my opinion, the biggest reason Trek comes as boring for many people, and this is something TNG is the most guilty of, is that everyone's personalities are a bit sameish. Don't get me wrong they are all amazing characters, but they are all the same type.

Yes, they are all completely different people, but what I mean is that, in the end, they are all still intellectual goody two shoe introverts. Everyone always speaking formally and in scientific terms. It's like a high school with only role model students getting the spotlight.

So it's no wonder smart/ introverted, people are attracted to trek. But it's hard for everyone else, I think.

The Orville did do great in that regard in that there's a lot more diversity. And by diversity, I don't mean skin color as an SJW, but diversity in character types. And so did DS9 with characters like Quark, Kira, Rom, Sisko, and Odo. Not everyone is quoting Shakespeare and talking philosophy every 5 minutes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Trek is boring or that it should change and become a Whedon snark fest or even an Orville comedy. I'm just giving my two cents, why some people see it that way.

Okay, so as a big fan of BS5, I feel the first Season wasn't that integrated into the overall arc. There were certainly foreshadowing episodes and I think you needed it to really appreciate G'kar and Londo and Vir and De'lenn as characters. But plot wise I remember a lot of it being quite episode of the week. Also, I have to say if you stopped at Season 2, Ep. 1 you stop just as it was about to get really good.

Oh, I plan to finish b5 soon, thank you for the rec, but I gotta be honest, the first season was a bit hard for me to get into. Not saying b5 is bad, but I found most non-ambassador/alien characters lacking compared to the human IMHO. My opinion might change once I finish the series, but there's no question that DS9 gets you to love the characters much earlier.

Don't get me wrong, I get it was all set up, and the good stuff is coming, but it was a bit of a chore going to all the build-up, not gonna lie. though even as little as I saw, I can safely tell you that b5 is miles away of DS9 regarding world-building. Babylon 5 has a lot more locations and interesting places inside the station, just in the first season than the whole DS9 series.

 

[Scarlett Johansson]

Will Crusher show up at all? She was my favorite

 

[Catgirls are Love]

Will Crusher show up at all? She was my favorite

I'm pretty sure that the leaks seem to claim she's dead, so probably not.

 

[Man vs persistent rat]

Oh, I plan to finish b5 soon, thank you for the rec, but I gotta be honest, the first season was a bit hard for me to get into. Not saying b5 is bad, but I found most non-ambassador/alien characters lacking compared to the human IMHO. My opinion might change once I finish the series, but there's no question that DS9 gets you to love the characters much earlier.

Don't get me wrong, I get it was all set up, and the good stuff is coming, but it was a bit of a chore going to all the build-up, not gonna lie. though even as little as I saw, I can safely tell you that b5 is miles away of DS9 regarding world-building. Babylon 5 has a lot more locations and interesting places inside the station, just in the first season than the whole DS9 series.

Londo and G'Kar get a hell of an arc, but there are some more non-ambassador alien characters introduced over time (though none in the station management - I kind of respect that, it's not a Federation-like institution). I tend to skip season 1 nowadays, its storytelling is just too conventional, but with 2-4 you're in for a treat. In case it's not known, season 5 is a mess and was thrown together as the last minute after the main story had already concluded, it's safe to skip unless very curious.

 

[Tookie]

Wait... Bruce Maddox? As in the douchy guy from Measure of a Man who tried to and failed to prove in court that Data wasn't a person? What a bizarre call back. That dude was never a scheming villain, just some self-entitled egghead. What he wanted to do in the episode wasn't even evil, just possibly misguided with some potentially bad implications (slave race) and he was an ass about it. Are they even going to get the original guy back?

That's really confusing if they're going to use him as a villain. The whole point of his character was that he was a jerk but got so BTFO by Picard's logic and moral clarity that he became a good guy. They even referenced him and Data becoming buddies later on in TNG.

 

[Flexo]

Even if I bought that Sisko had *ever* faced any sort of racial discrimination in his life in the 'peaceful' Federation, and so *earned* that racial chip he randomly had on his shoulder in that one random part of one episode... (And for the record, I don't buy it. Racism isn't a thing in Trek, or at least it wasn't before Star Trek: Picard...) his criticism is still bullshit. The closest present-world analogue that I, and probably most other people, immediately think of when they see the fictional Vic Fontane character, is Frank Sinatra.

I totally agree with you. It bugged me too.

BUT, I do think part of the outburst on Sisko's part was from his vision quest as Benny, not growing up in the federation.

 

[trekkor]

This bugs me so much. Vulcan is established as having higher gravity and thinner atmosphere than earth. Sure humans could stay there for short periods, but an extended stay - especially after Burnham had already gone through her first growth spurt - would be devastating to a human's health.

This can be handwaved with non-Vulcans only spending little time outside of their homes/specifically modified rooms that are more suited to their biological needs. Amanda had to tolerate living there somehow, even if she was a diplomat's wife who got to leave fairly often. But I agree that you really can't expect someone who grew up there to excel the local population in any way. Those tests shown in ST IV the Vulcans go through are brutal enough on their own but when you have to do several at the same time and compete for speed, then it becomes impossible (unless your parents aren't happy you're not developing fast enough and get you a back alley genetic modification).

**I would have liked "Badda-Bing Badda-Bang" A *lot* more without that random, totally out of character, mini-rant Sisko did where he he said he wasn't going to join the rest of his crew in helping Vic Fontaine (A holographic character, who had up to that point been nothing but a friend to literally every single member of the crew who he had ever met) retake his holosuite program from mobsters... because (In this episode's Sisko's words) "the 'real' version of Vegas or whatever 'wouldn't have allowed black people.' " (I know he comes around by the end, and good for him, but it was a stupid statement from a character that I otherwise loved and still do), it just really took me out of an episode that I probably would have otherwise liked a hell of a lot more..

That scene would've been better if Sisko had actually explained why he felt the way he did. Maybe not even to Kasidy (bless her for not giving a shit about stuff that happened several hundred years ago) but to Vic. He wouldn't have to say "so the prophets made me have a vision quest for no reason at all where Dukat and Weyoun beat me up for being black and Odo was reasonably mean to me and that fucked me up a bit" but just say he knew a bit more about history and he was wondering if Vic for instance saw any sort of difference between the differently coloured crew members. You'd get to explore racial issues without being so incredibly one-sided.

But I guess that's too varied of an opinion for someone like Ira "I am the main reason DS9 was a success" Behr. It's also why I don't really like Far Beyond the Stars that much. It's villains are cartoonish when the villains of the actual storyline were not (at least at that point, F my niggas Winn and Dukat in S7), it really didn't have anything to say beyond pointing out that, hey, black people and women can do sci-fi as well and imho, it's one more episode in the series of "Sisko gets manipulated by the Prophets for their own benefit and he never questions it" which is both a storyline that went completely unacknowledged and frankly made Sisko seem incredibly naive. DS9 had a ton of problems with how they wrote the Prophets and many missed opportunities. I could go on a huge disjointed rant on how the show somehow ended up believing Sisko truly was space Jesus when they started off exploring different sides of religious questions.

Spoiler: honestly, about DS9

I have a lot of problems with DS9, some that are probably very unpopular amongst fans. I still love it, but I'm not sure it warrants being the best example of a Star Trek/sci-fi show.

 

[GethN7]

That's really confusing if they're going to use him as a villain. The whole point of his character was that he was a jerk but got so BTFO by Picard's logic and moral clarity that he became a good guy. They even referenced him and Data becoming buddies later on in TNG.

The EU books even built on that. Someone tried the same stunt Maddox did on Data to B-4 post-Nemesis in one book, and Maddox BTFO'ed that guy with the same logic.

 

[Flexo]

In honor of Rene (rip), SFDebris examines the character of Odo.