Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

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draggs said:
The Federation is C.S. Lewis' tyranny for your own good... in SPAAAAAAAAAACE

That's why the villains have to almost all be thin stereotypes, unrestrained greed for something motivating the vast majority. Professor Moriarty type villains are relatively rare. The Federation is soooo good that the only way it can be bad is misunderstandings, mistakes, crazy Admirals, etc. The idea that some species just have no interest in the smug fake-pacifist technocratic enlightened strangers club does not compute.

Oh and dont forget how Picard promised Moriarty the Federation would try to find a way to free him and did fuck-all for four years then found a solution real fucking quick when Moriarty forced them to. A solution they could have done in the first place but didnt because the Federation's claims of principles are situational bullshit.
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tbf Moriarty thing was also because irl they found out he wasn't as pubic domain as they thought he was
 
XYZpdq said:
tbf Moriarty thing was also because irl they found out he wasn't as pubic domain as they thought he was
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They encountered a similar issue with Bashir's spy holosuite story on DS9. If I remember correctly, they had to stop because the Ian Fleming Estate started to get a little upset.
 
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Miller said:
They encountered a similar issue with Bashir's spy holosuite story on DS9. If I remember correctly, they had to stop because the Ian Fleming Estate started to get a little upset.
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I thought it was the Bond movie people, but yeah iirc they got a strongly-worded letter about what's considered kosher for Bond parody and what's considered infringement.
 
Miller said:
They encountered a similar issue with Bashir's spy holosuite story on DS9. If I remember correctly, they had to stop because the Ian Fleming Estate started to get a little upset.
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That's a pity it was probably one of the best episodes of DS9, Avery Brooks playing a bond villain who actually pulled of his plan was pretty good.
 
XYZpdq said:
tbf Moriarty thing was also because irl they found out he wasn't as pubic domain as they thought he was
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According to the American lawyer who was an agent for the Conan Doyle estate, Paramount 100% got their permission (paid them) to have Data as Holmes, Geordi as Watson, use the character of Professor Moriarty, etc. There were no issues with public domain/copyright according to him. Paramount didn't say oops sorry here we'll pay you for Elementary, Dear Data after the fact and to use Moriarty again in a future episode so you don't sue us, it was all kosher beforehand.

But people who worked on TNG and at Paramount say there were issues. Then there are those who say it was a trademark not a copyright issue. So who fucking knows.
 
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draggs said:
According to the American lawyer who was an agent for the Conan Doyle estate, Paramount 100% got their permission (paid them) to have Data as Holmes, Geordi as Watson, use the character of Professor Moriarty, etc. There were no issues with public domain/copyright according to him. Paramount didn't say oops sorry here we'll pay you for Elementary, Dear Data after the fact and to use Moriarty again in a future episode so you don't sue us, it was all kosher beforehand.

But people who worked on TNG and at Paramount say there were issues. Then there are those who say it was a trademark not a copyright issue. So who fucking knows.
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I want to say it might have involved TM and the UK in particular?
 
RumblyTumbly said:
All this talk of how shitty the Federation is reminds me of this:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=6VhSm6G7cVk
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Quark really was one of the best characters in all of Trekdom. He started as a greedy, snivelling, opportunistic misogynist and by the end of the series he was... well still a greedy, snivelling, opportunistic misogynist, but we see that he's got a lot more depth to him than any of those surface traits would imply.

For one thing he had a damn sharp mind. Had to, constantly playing his cat and mouse games with Odo and trying to get away with whatever he could.

He not only had the Federation pegged to a T, a benevolent and well meaning but ultimately insidious and insistent force, but he did the same for humanity when he told Nog:
"Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, Nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people, as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people... will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon."

Because he was right. Quark, despite his percieved moral failings, was actually right a frightening amount of the time.
And even better, despite being a deceptive con man Quark was surprisingly honest with what he believed. For instance when he outright told Sisko that he thought Ferengi were actually better than humans used to be because at least Ferengi didn't have a history of slavery, genocide, and interstellar war.


As an aside, the one sane piece of Trek news I've heard in years:
If Worf makes an appearance on Picard they will not be changing his appearance to match the Discovery Klingorcs and he'll look like he did in TNG.
 
ExceptionallyExceptional said:
He not only had the Federation pegged to a T, a benevolent and well meaning but ultimately insidious and insistent force, but he did the same for humanity when he told Nog:
"Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, Nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people, as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people... will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon."
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isn't that just simply bread & circuses?
 
Miller said:
They encountered a similar issue with Bashir's spy holosuite story on DS9. If I remember correctly, they had to stop because the Ian Fleming Estate started to get a little upset.
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According to razor, they planned to do more James bond Bashir before they got the notice.
 
Sexual Chocolate said:
Dr. Who isn't science fiction, because there's no real (or even pretend) science in the premise - it's more of a fantasy, lightly glazed in random dialog that sounds vaguely sciencey. But science doesn't really drive the plot, it's the other way around. Like how the sonic spanner or the Tardigrade do whatever the writer needs them to do, because there's no consistent in-universe set of rules or limitations, it's just a sandbox for characters to emote in. You could replace all the references to "science" with "magic" and it wouldn't make any real difference to the show.
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I got a good laugh at "sonic spanner and Tardigrade," then I remembered that STD actually had a tardigrade powering their spaceship...

rabo said:
Well, you're not wrong there, the Federation is driven by exploration and making contact with other species. That sounds nice from the Federation's standpoint, but that still means "We're going to trample through everybody's yards and knock on their doors."
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Very true, there are a bunch of instances where Starfleet wants to go through somebody's space and the aliens that live there don't want them there. The humans get offended and argue about it, and if it's not negotiable, they just secretly do it anyway. I think there was a video posted here earlier with Janeway trying to negotiate passage through some space and they basically laugh at the idea that the aliens want them to take a specific route that's not convenient for them. Then they go trample everywhere they want through that space anyway. This happens in pretty much every series. It's also always presented like the aliens are being really unreasonable.
 
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melty said:
Very true, there are a bunch of instances where Starfleet wants to go through somebody's space and the aliens that live there don't want them there. The humans get offended and argue about it, and if it's not negotiable, they just secretly do it anyway. I think there was a video posted here earlier with Janeway trying to negotiate passage through some space and they basically laugh at the idea that the aliens want them to take a specific route that's not convenient for them. Then they go trample everywhere they want through that space anyway. This happens in pretty much every series. It's also always presented like the aliens are being really unreasonable.
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For being such respectful, peace-loving, non-threatening angels, kinda weird that the Federation had a demilitarized zone with the Cardassians, and a neutral zone with both the Klingons and the Romulans. That poor Federation, just keeps getting picked on by everyone definitely not their fault.

Lots of TOS is basically 'the USS Enterprise sticks its nose in somwhere because; craziness ensues.' I think there was so much exposition on TNG about how the Enterprise was on a 'diplomatic mission;' or had been 'asked to' go somewhere for whatever reason by locals, because someone realized this and wanted the Federation to seem generally much less aggressive in its operations in the new series.
 
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The Federation was basically like the British Empire from 120 years ago (and America in the past century in the Middle East.) A superpower hegemon that wanted to bring it's "superior" way of life to more primitive races. One of my favorite TOS episodes is "Errand of Mercy" where the Federation and the Klingons clash over a primitive society called the Organians, trying to either conquer or protect it. It turns out in the end that the Organians were a superpowered race way more advanced than the Federation or Klingon Empire, and they pretty much incapacitated everybody and told them to go home in disgust. This ep. was supposed to be a dunk against the Cold War, but it works just as well for countries that like to swing their cultural dicks around and bully less advanced nations.
 
draggs said:
For being such respectful, peace-loving, non-threatening angels, kinda weird that the Federation had a demilitarized zone with the Cardassians, and a neutral zone with both the Klingons and the Romulans. That poor Federation, just keeps getting picked on by everyone definitely not their fault.

Lots of TOS is basically 'the USS Enterprise sticks its nose in somwhere because; craziness ensues.' I think there was so much exposition on TNG about how the Enterprise was on a 'diplomatic mission;' or had been 'asked to' go somewhere for whatever reason by locals, because someone realized this and wanted the Federation to seem generally much less aggressive in its operations in the new series.
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Which also made the Galaxy class a big failure as far as mission specifications went. It was initially meant for long-range exploration and potential colony ship. Later on, it was used more for diplomatic escort, patrol, and other flagship duties inside of Fed territory. The class itself was such a resource boondoggle that the Nebula did all these duties at kitbash rates.
 
melty said:
Very true, there are a bunch of instances where Starfleet wants to go through somebody's space and the aliens that live there don't want them there. The humans get offended and argue about it, and if it's not negotiable, they just secretly do it anyway. I think there was a video posted here earlier with Janeway trying to negotiate passage through some space and they basically laugh at the idea that the aliens want them to take a specific route that's not convenient for them. Then they go trample everywhere they want through that space anyway. This happens in pretty much every series. It's also always presented like the aliens are being really unreasonable.
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Harry Kim gets taken prisoner cause he was framed for a crime he didn't commit, Janeway: "We have to play by the rules of these people. We will prove his innocence. We can't do anything rash to free him, Prime Directive forbids this."
Also Janeway, after being respectfully told not to enter a certain sector of space by the aliens that control it: "haha warpdrive go BRRRRR!"

Would be interesting and set up many different kind of cool encounters, if a Starfleet ship was forced to take what amounts to being a public space-highway through some alien's stellar nation with many different other races traveling along the same path in both directions.
In case of Voyager, they could initially respect the request of traveling via the route that they were asked to follow and then they find something on their long range sensors that they need to take care of. Maybe a call for help, maybe something indicating some sort of war-crime or whatever. A million things that are less dickish than ignoring a people's request to travel along a given route and instead plowing through their sector like they owned it.
 
Pokemonquistador2 said:
It turns out in the end that the Organians were a superpowered race way more advanced than the Federation or Klingon Empire, and they pretty much incapacitated everybody and told them to go home in disgust.
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In TOS the Federation was just Space USA. But by TNG it had become the Space UN.
RomanesEuntDomus said:
Also Janeway, after being respectfully told not to enter a certain sector of space by the aliens that control it: "haha warpdrive go BRRRRR!"
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Giving biological weapons to the Borg to genocide Species 8472
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But Tom Paris gets a driving ticket
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RomanesEuntDomus said:
Harry Kim gets taken prisoner cause he was framed for a crime he didn't commit, Janeway: "We have to play by the rules of these people. We will prove his innocence. We can't do anything rash to free him, Prime Directive forbids this."
Also Janeway, after being respectfully told not to enter a certain sector of space by the aliens that control it: "haha warpdrive go BRRRRR!"
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To be fair, warp drive went brrr over seven of nine. I think everyone would put more effort into saving Seven than Harry Kim. Remember when he just fucking dies and they replace him with a different Harry Kim?
ditto said:
But Tom Paris gets a driving ticket
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How do I not remember this episode? This sounds amazingly bad holy shit.
 
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