Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

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True, but I bet he was indeed told to lose weight by Berman.
I mean, they just redesigned the uniforms to that they weren't all tight spandex and looked better on fat people, but I see your point.
Did she do anything after Becker anyway? Some actors who starred in Trek accept gracefully they'll always be whoever they played in the show and move on with it, and others get real bitter and try to chase the money however they can. I always heard that she left because Berman wouldn't budge on her re-negotiating her hours for the 7th Season and she wanted the money. I imagine that there was a lot of backscene stuff going on that hardened them.
It might have been before DS9 even, but she was in the (godawful) attempt to Americanize Red Dwarf, playing a gender swapped Cat. She wasn't any better of an actress there either.
 
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True, but I bet he was indeed told to lose weight by Berman.
I would say that Berman probably thought Frakes should lose weight, but his professionalism (always a plus!) and directing skills offset whatever issues his weight caused.
I actually thought that Canuck Ezri was a much better actress, but the entire internet seemed to hate her.
IMO, Nicole de Boer was put in a thankless situation which she handled as well as anyone. It took some Trek actors a couple of years to fully figure out their characters. Some actors never did. She was given a season.

And, yes, she was a much better actress. Can you imagine Terry Farrell giving the "Klingon Empire Sucks" speech, what with her blank stare and droning monotone?
 
I find it interesting to see others that weren't impressed with her. She never convinced me that she was a centuries-old wise old man. I actually thought that Canuck Ezri was a much better actress, but the entire internet seemed to hate her.
The poor girl had to have a character written for her in one season while all the other characters were on their seventh, so it came across as rushed. Also the awkward romance with her and Bashir, which was just what happened with all the Berman Star Trek shows in their final season (Worf x Troi and Chakotay x Seven of Nine were even worse).
 
I've recently been quite ill and for a period of time wasn't able to do much more than lie or sit down watching something. Needing something not too taxing and which lasted long enough that I could just stare at it day after day, I ended up watching Deep Space 9. I'm not really into Star Trek though I've seen TNG and various other Star Trek media and could probably name any of the major characters you put in front of me.

Now I'm able to sit at a keyboard and be coherent, I will share some random thoughts on it:
  • The show could alternatively be titled "Jake Sisko's Age Inappropriate Relationships". Seriously, he's forever chasing dabbo girls twice his age, Immortal alien space muse succubi, Major Kira. The list goes on. Though outdone by Garak's involvement with the Dukat's teenage daughter.
  • Gul Dukat acts everybody else off the screen and I can well believe what I read that they deliberately wrote him more and more over the top evil in a desperate attempt to stop the audience liking him.
  • Quark is the best character and Esri Dax should have ended up with him rather than Julian. They had way more chemistry.
  • Avery Brooks overacts constantly. Either. Talking. Very. Slowly. Or clapping his hands, laughing and spinning around on the spot like a Chimpanzee. Despite this, the dude is hugely likeable and I have no complaints.
  • Am I missing something or is a more objective view of the war that the Federation suddenly started encroaching on Dominion territory and the Dominion initially was defending its territory? Against an enemy that uses engineered diseases to try and genocide their species, Similarly with the Pa Wraiths who all I really know about them was they were driven out of their home by the "Prophets" and then imprisoned for millenia by those same "Prophets" in a cave. Are we sure the Federation side are not actually the belligerents in all this?
  • The actor playing the Grand Nagus is annoying as fuck. The Ferengi episodes would be better if they'd cast someone else. Despite that, the episode where Quark assembles an A-Team of Ferengi to rescue his Moogi made me laugh. Especially the juxtaposition of the comic actors with the completely deadpan and playing it straight Vorta prisoner they seek to exchange. The end shot of his corpse repeatedly walking into a bulkhead was darkly hilarious.
  • Herbert West is great in all his roles. But especially Weyoun and his endless smug servility.
  • I was sad when Damar died.
  • I was sad when the Frank Sinatra holoprogram guy didn't die. I do not like Lounge Music and though they weaved some decent emotional scenes into that setting, the Las Vegas holo stuff was pretty tiresome for me. Dragged out so much.
  • Worf got some great writing in this show and I was very happy to see the actor get to stretch his legs in this show. I said above that Quark is the best character but actually it's probably Worf. The best part of his character is that everything including the humour, is very believably part of his character. I never felt that anything he did was out of character for him. His line about Bashir when Esri is contemplating a relationship with Bashir is simply: "He plays with toys." Spot on Worf, spot on!
  • Kai Winn is probably the most dislikeable villain in the entire show. Mainly because we've all met her in real life one way or another.
That's more or less the stuff that comes to mind right now. A decent show. More theatrical than most modern TV but that's not a bad thing. I could imagine a lot of the scenes actually taking place on stage. I genuinely thought for a moment in the last episode that Morn was about to speak. The actors were a mix. Very few actually bad but a handful really elevating the material. Gul Dukat, Odo (can get a lot of expression out of a simple Harrumph) , Worf, the dabbo girl who Quark attempts to coerce into sex under threat of firing her...

Had never seen it before though was aware that it existed.
 
Am I missing something or is a more objective view of the war that the Federation suddenly started encroaching on Dominion territory and the Dominion initially was defending its territory? Against an enemy that uses engineered diseases to try and genocide their species, Similarly with the Pa Wraiths who all I really know about them was they were driven out of their home by the "Prophets" and then imprisoned for millenia by those same "Prophets" in a cave. Are we sure the Federation side are not actually the belligerents in all this?
It's definitely a border dispute where for the first two years, they didn't even know the Dominion existed, so the Bajorans thought it was free real estate and set up colonies. So, I'm inclined to think it's more like the Neutral Zone where it's all frontier that no one touches. If the Dominion cared about defense, they would have plugged their side of the Wormhole when they found out the Alpha Quadrant existed, so that pretense gets done away with when they finally invade.

The Pah Wraiths are cartoonishly Satanic, but I will agree the Prophets aren't really Good guys. They view the Bajorans as pets and bumble about aimlessly by claiming non-linearity. Which can be disrupted when their final fight got interrupted by Kai Winn, proving they aren't omniscient. They also don't really care about Bajorans as individuals since they were perfectly willing to let Akorrem die until Sisko reminded them they can just send him back. It is kinda funny how they don't really fit into this show despite its overt Jewishniess. Season 1 clunkiness aside, the Prophets plots are the worst parts of the show because they often don't connect with other plots going on and finally used to nerf Dukat.
 
the Las Vegas holo stuff
The one after Nog loses his leg is excellent; a wonderful meditation on personal struggle and coping/sneeding that can only be told with the sci-fi holodeck setting. Vic becomes a very interesting character there. Aron Eisenberg really shows what a great actor he could be. It is good sci-fi.

Then the one about the heist is like TNG season 7. Said series was running on fumes, but Ds9 had a story it needed to tell and suddenly we're going back to Vertiform City! There are a handful of shitty random episodes that really should have been devoted to the overarching plot. I have already bitched in this thread about the Ferengi cola (aka 'tranny Quark') episode which is basically a total time waster if you are wondering how the Ferengi are affected by the Dominion War. Spoiler: they aren't.

Anyway congratulations on watching a great show, but sorry you had to get sick to do it!
 
It's definitely a border dispute where for the first two years, they didn't even know the Dominion existed, so the Bajorans thought it was free real estate and set up colonies. So, I'm inclined to think it's more like the Neutral Zone where it's all frontier that no one touches. If the Dominion cared about defense, they would have plugged their side of the Wormhole when they found out the Alpha Quadrant existed, so that pretense gets done away with when they finally invade.
I think it's an arguable point. And an interesting one. A large political and military force suddenly appears on your door step and begins surrounding your territory with colonies, setting up trade deals with your constituent states. Oh and said power is clearly expansionist. It also very aggressively uses trade and cultural colonisation and immigration as ways to assimilate its neighbours - the root beer of civilisations as Quark termed them. The Dominion aren't stupid - they understand how this all works. In the modern West we are all raised to believe that cultural, financial and immigration methods are acceptable methods of eliminating a people/culture and violence is an inappropriate way to oppose it. But there's no fundamental law that "oh, the way I am being destroyed is on the approved list, I better not do anything about it".

Playing Pa'Wraith's advocate here, attack sometimes really is the best form of defence. If the Dominion had simply blockaded their side of the wormhole, they'd have given the Federation as long as it wanted to get on a war footing, as long as it needed to, I don't know, invent a bioweapon that exterminated their species, decades to operate behind their lines and foment native rebel movements Maidan style. I imagine the Federation to act much like real world US foreign policy where they are the masters of the "I'm not touching you" game. Playing wholly defensively is a path to losing. The only question the Dominion have to ask is if the Federation will back off or if the Federation will keep pushing. And the Federation is an expansionist power, not to mention the Klingons and Romulans.

The Pah Wraiths are cartoonishly Satanic, but I will agree the Prophets aren't really Good guys. They view the Bajorans as pets and bumble about aimlessly by claiming non-linearity. Which can be disrupted when their final fight got interrupted by Kai Winn, proving they aren't omniscient. They also don't really care about Bajorans as individuals since they were perfectly willing to let Akorrem die until Sisko reminded them they can just send him back. It is kinda funny how they don't really fit into this show despite its overt Jewishniess. Season 1 clunkiness aside, the Prophets plots are the worst parts of the show because they often don't connect with other plots going on and finally used to nerf Dukat.
The thing is, the Pa Wraiths never actually do anything that evil that I can think of. They possess Keiko (little disernible personality difference, tbh) in order to strike back at those that imprisoned them and which presumably helps them regain their freedom. Dukat does evil things which he says is in their name but that's not actually them. And they have red eyes. About the worst I can think of is that one was willing to let DS9 be destroyed by holding their fight with the prophet there, but then so was the prophet. And Sisko was willing to let them do it!

There's very little I see of the Pa Wraiths that makes them anything other than us joining the story in the middle of a war and not knowing the reasons it began so not knowing who is a "goodie" or "baddie" in the ongoing conflict. Most of it seems to come down to 'this faction has blue light effects and that faction has red light effects'.

The one after Nog loses his leg is excellent; a wonderful meditation on personal struggle and coping/sneeding that can only be told with the sci-fi holodeck setting. Vic becomes a very interesting character there. Aron Eisenberg really shows what a great actor he could be. It is good sci-fi.
Yeah, that's kind of what I meant about them telling some good stories with it, but me still not liking it. They could do the same with some other character or a one-off holosuite program, and Nog's journey would be the same, imo. There was just a tonne of this "Vic" stuff and Lounge music is one of the very few forms of music I actively abhor. The actor is fine, I just really disliked this stuff and they kept filling up more and more screen time with it.


I have already bitched in this thread about the Ferengi cola (aka 'tranny Quark') episode which is basically a total time waster if you are wondering how the Ferengi are affected by the Dominion War. Spoiler: they aren't.
That episode was a lot more disturbing than I expected it to be. I thought it was going to be some knockabout farce with Quark running around in drag and such. But they made it weirdly realistic in places, esp. with the whole thing where Bashir does an actual sex change on Quark.

I do still think the actress in that episode playing the Dabbo girl that Quark attempts to coerce into sleeping with him was great, even though it was a small part. The way she says "Ohhhh, you mean you want me to be... 'nice'" is great. I do wish Quark had ended up with someone by the last episode.

Anyway congratulations on watching a great show, but sorry you had to get sick to do it!
Thanks.
 
I believe it happened, but I think there was probably more than one side to it i.e. Berman was a loathsome degenerate but Farrell was high-maintenance and touchy and caused a lot of drama behind the scenes, which caused Berman to rake her over the coals.

Off the top of my head I can think of two episodes that they had to massively rewrite due to her being high-maintenance. She was supposed to go undercover as a Klingon in Apocalypse Rising, but she had an allergic reaction to the makeup. She was also supposed to be more prominent in Rocks and Shoals, but she had an allergic reaction to the sunlight, which caused her to camp out in a cave for most of the episode. Berman had no patience for this kind of wastage of time and money, which is how both Garrett Wang and Wil Wheaton ended up on his shitlist.
The guy that played the Grand Negus also had an allergic reaction to the make up buy he still did his scenes.
Did she do anything after Becker anyway?
This was before DS9 but she was in Hellraiser 3.
 
Anyone ever listen to the Delta Flyers podcast with Tom Paris and Harry Kim? They went on to do DS9 episode recaps with Terry Farrell and she comes across as an airhead and a retard. Berman probably could no longer stand to hear her vocal fry. That being said, I do kind of recall reading something about other female ds9 cast members agreeing with her that Berman was a creep. Also Marc Alaimo but he was a method actor so you can't even get mad at him for being a creep on set. Dukat gonna Dukat.
 
The poor girl had to have a character written for her in one season while all the other characters were on their seventh, so it came across as rushed. Also the awkward romance with her and Bashir, which was just what happened with all the Berman Star Trek shows in their final season (Worf x Troi and Chakotay x Seven of Nine were even worse).
Having literally just watched the series for the first time these past few weeks, I thought it was fairly obvious her writing was a little last minute but I also thought she did a good job. Doesn't hurt that she was very pretty. That clip of her talking about the Klingon empire was a great example of the actress paired with good writing. An example of her paired with bad writing would be almost any of the scenes she had with Bashir where she was plainly thrown on set and told "act awkward and shy around him". Their romance was incredibly forced. The involvement with Worf was probably similarly forced but the quality of the two actors in that case managed to conceal it a little.

Honestly, with the greatest respect to the actress they probably shouldn't have replaced Jadzia because the hole left in the ensemble would have driven home the tragedy of a crew member's death in a way popping in a replacement with the same memories did not. But there would probably have been some pretty severe re-writing involved in that so it's not a realistic option. I liked the episode dealing with her family on their homeworld as well. Definitely they lucked out in finding her. I've really no insider knowledge that would really let me judge the rights and wrong's of Terry Farrell's departure.

Anyone ever listen to the Delta Flyers podcast with Tom Paris and Harry Kim? They went on to do DS9 episode recaps with Terry Farrell and she comes across as an airhead and a retard. Berman probably could no longer stand to hear her vocal fry. That being said, I do kind of recall reading something about other female ds9 cast members agreeing with her that Berman was a creep. Also Marc Alaimo but he was a method actor so you can't even get mad at him for being a creep on set. Dukat gonna Dukat.
Someone linked a reddit post deep in the backthread that talked about the accusations against Marc Alaimo and how things had been taken out of context. Largely stating they had been wildly overblown and out of context. If there were any issues I could well see it just being a generational thing. Younger Western people seem to expect men to not flirt unless there's been some pre-arranged agreement to do so between both parties. Whereas older Western guys and outside the West, just have the more traditional mindset of "the woman tells you to go away if you annoy her".

EDIT: And regards Voyager, Seven should have decided to return to the Borg at the end of her arc just so we could see Janeway's bluff of righteousness called and see Janeway try to physically stop her. Would have been a very interesting, dramatic and complex conclusion to Seven's arc. Janeway always had this attitude of trying to appear noble and ethical up until she realised that wouldn't work.
 
Avery Brooks overacts constantly. Either. Talking. Very. Slowly. Or clapping his hands, laughing and spinning around on the spot like a Chimpanzee. Despite this, the dude is hugely likeable and I have no complaints.
I think the role of lead actor in Star Trek lends itself to a larger-than-life quality.

It’s no coincidence that Shatner, Stewart, Mulgrew and Brooks had experience in Shakespeare prior to trek. It comes off as overacting at times, but Shakespeare rarely calls for subtle, naturalistic portrayals. And how can you be subtle and naturalistic when you’re arguing with guys in Klingon makeup who do nothing but yell?
 
I think the role of lead actor in Star Trek lends itself to a larger-than-life quality.

It’s no coincidence that Shatner, Stewart, Mulgrew and Brooks had experience in Shakespeare prior to trek. It comes off as overacting at times, but Shakespeare rarely calls for subtle, naturalistic portrayals. And how can you be subtle and naturalistic when you’re arguing with guys in Klingon makeup who do nothing but yell?
It’s part of the charm of Trek and it’s (one of the reasons) why the new ones suck. The actors, especially the Captains, just aren’t bringing that Shakespearean gravitas to the role.

Anson Mount is being criminally underutilized since he was really good in Hell on Wheels. Frankly considering The Cage, they should’ve told Anson to really lean back into his acting on Hell on Wheels to do Pike. SNW Pike at times comes off as the typical media “inoffensive white man” and it’s turbogay.
 
they deliberately wrote him more and more over the top evil in a desperate attempt to stop the audience liking him.
my first thought is they wanted to write off the character when the federation took the station back but he was too well liked to go away/contractual obligations so his stuff suffered but that is also a plausible theory.
The actor playing the Grand Nagus is annoying as fuck
that was the point, the king of the jew stereotypes would be an annoying weirdo.

Am I missing something or is a more objective view of the war that the Federation suddenly started encroaching on Dominion territory
the dominion made no effort to remedy the situation with diplomacy. they let the alpha quadrant do whatever they wanted in their territory for like a year while they gathered intelligence/got goobacks into various institutions and then declared war. so yes they were encroaching but only out of ignorance and the dominon let the problem fester so they could get the upper hand in the war they were going to start regardless.
 
It’s part of the charm of Trek and it’s (one of the reasons) why the new ones suck. The actors, especially the Captains, just aren’t bringing that Shakespearean gravitas to the role.
True and the [current year] writing in Kurtzman Trek doesn't help. Classic Trek was written like a period piece.
 
The Pah Wraiths possess Keiko, you can tell the cartoonish over the top evil spirits possessed her since she's acting like less of a ballbusting bitch.
 
The actor playing the Grand Nagus is annoying as fuck.
INCONCEIVABLE! Wallace Shawn is a national treasure. I think he might be Canadian, but Trump can annex him, if necessary.

Also, that was Iggy Pop playing Yelgrun the Vorta in The Magnificent Ferengi. And he did a beautiful job, indeed. Played a great straight-man to the Ferengi.
 
Also, that was Iggy Pop playing Yelgrun the Vorta in The Magnificent Ferengi. And he did a beautiful job, indeed. Played a great straight-man to the Ferengi.

They missed a great opportunity for a "never had it in the ear before" joke.

That episode was a lot more disturbing than I expected it to be. I thought it was going to be some knockabout farce with Quark running around in drag and such. But they made it weirdly realistic in places, esp. with the whole thing where Bashir does an actual sex change on Quark.

This resulted from a massive disconnect between the writers (who wanted to make it more farcical) and the director/actor (who wanted to make it more grounded). The director (Siddig) and actor (Shimerman) were forced to reshoot it as a farce after they'd filmed it as a drama. That's why its tone is all over the place.
 
Kai Winn is probably the most dislikeable villain in the entire show. Mainly because we've all met her in real life one way or another.

Kai Winn is one of my favorite villains in anything, I don’t think I have loathed a character quite as much as her. Somehow she would always weasel her way out of her actions, it was great. Louise Fletcher did a fantastic job portraying her.
Also, that was Iggy Pop playing Yelgrun the Vorta in The Magnificent Ferengi. And he did a beautiful job, indeed. Played a great straight-man to the Ferengi
I loved the episode, and loved seeing Iggy Pop randomly show up in Star Trek. It was funny that no matter how much prosthetics they put on him, he still looked like himself, that bone structure is just unmistakeable.
 
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