Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

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Dick Johnson said:
Quippy dialogue works fine in Star Trek if it's limited to a particular character (Tom Paris was reasonably quippy), but Star Trek is not built for characters that are constantly snarking at each other.
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Here is Tom Paris making a quip. Yes, you all knew it was going to be this one.


What makes this different from an MCU quip, let us count the ways:
  1. It is context-appropriate. They are not fighting to save the world of their lives, they're hungry and they want dinner.
  2. It is not just bathos, deflating built up tension for "comedy". It's actually amusing in its unexpectedness.
  3. Closely related to the above, it is actually sharp edged. It's not just a "oh no you didn't" insult at someone else (that you're supposed to be on a team with). There's an actual distinction in viewpoints represented here.
  4. And closely related to that point, it's reflective of the actual character. They aren't all blurring into each other as one big quippy archetype. Neelix wouldn't say that, Belanna wouldn't say that. Janeway might if she had been denied her tea and was feeling snappish. But largely the comment actually comes from the character who is quippy, not the character who is on-screen.
  5. The show isn't a comedy and takes itself (mostly) serious. That means a character who is funny reflects an actual character trait they have, not just the writers using the character as a more handsome version of themselves. This is instantly more believable.
In fact most of the above on some level have the virtue of being believable over their inverse MCU equivalent where it subtracts from the suspension of disbelief. Quips worked early on in the MCU when RDJ played Stark as a snappy bastard who used them combatitavly . Example being he and Cap butting heads in the Avengers movie: "You're a big man in a suit of armour, but take that away and what are you?" / "Billionaire philanthropist genius playboy". That wasn't a quip for the audience (not directly), it was in-character sniping from Stark. Most MCU quips aren't that, they're immaturity and inability to take oneself seriously, like was said.

The exact opposite of the occasional Star Trek quip which used sparingly make the show more believable and entertaining. ("Very good, Mr. Brocoli").
 
Dick Johnson said:
Quippy dialogue works fine in Star Trek if it's limited to a particular character (Tom Paris was reasonably quippy), but Star Trek is not built for characters that are constantly snarking at each other.
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There is a lot of that type of dialogue in ST but as @Overly Serious says, context matters.

Picard and Riker had got their moments, but it's often to try to cool down a tense situation (which is part of their job as the leaders of the crew) or to own idiots. They are allowed to be more playful as well with the senior officers, but they would never use it to put them down or any junior officer who they still respect.

The one who has more dialogue like this is I think Geordi and that's because he has a quick wit and he's in general approachable and easy going. Also, bc he works with the engineers, I can see him trying to form a chill space for them to see him as someone they can approach to talk if there is a problem.

And then, there is Worf, lmao.

As leaders of their teams, I can see Geordi, Riker, and Picard trying to use humor to keep everybody's spirits up, unless we're talking about an imminent disaster. Worf ain't like this, but he has his way to bond with his people (sports and athletics in general). Beverly is more maternal with her crew, but she is more quippy with her fellow officers.
 
It's official: I finally have faith of the heart. So far, Enterprise isn't awful, but I'm not thrilled about the idea of this temporal cold war thing. Timey bullshit have always been my least favorite plots in Trek.
 
Captain Syrup said:
I got sucked into Burn Notice early on, but the whole "Who burned Michael?" mystery wasn’t important. It’s the kind of thing that seemed like a big deal for a season or two and then, by the time the fourth rolled around, it’s like that *A-Team* movie, which spent two hours explaining the origin of the team, as if anyone in the was sitting there going, “Oh, I wonder how these guys came together.”
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Love Burn Notice.

IMO Voyager should have done its story like BN. Where every week you had a random anomaly or alien to deal with in the A plot, and then the B plot was the arc related stuff, which in Voyager's case should be related to keeping the ship running and character stuff.

Then for sweeps and season opener/closers you would get an all focus arc episode. Like "oh on our way home we've reached Borg territory. Well shit."
 
Dick Johnson said:
I'll even go so far as to say that the most bare-bones interpretation of Section 31 - a Starfleet Intelligence field team has to accomplish an important covert task - is one that could make a good movie or series. But it would need to be LeCarre-esque (or at least Bourne-esque), with a focus on the mundane tasks associated with espionage, performed by experienced professionals.
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You could even do interesting conflict where sec 31 has to do their mission, but they know they absolutely cannot get caught because it will damage the Federation's reputation. Like if things go sideways, the whole crew has to self destruct kind of thing.

There's potential there but Hollywood is always awful at realizing potential.
 
OrionBalls said:
It's official: I finally have faith of the heart. So far, Enterprise isn't awful, but I'm not thrilled about the idea of this temporal cold war thing. Timey bullshit have always been my least favorite plots in Trek.
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They spend like half the show jamming time travel into Enterprise—and then refuse to use it to fix glaring inconsistencies like the Romulans suddenly showing up on viewscreens like they’ve been pals with Starfleet for centuries.

It’s not like Enterprise is alone in this madness. Kazon, Discovery and the Burn... starting to think Star Trek should get the hell away from these season-long arcs. Leave it to shows can handle them.
 
Flexo said:
You could even do interesting conflict where sec 31 has to do their mission, but they know they absolutely cannot get caught because it will damage the Federation's reputation. Like if things go sideways, the whole crew has to self destruct kind of thing.

There's potential there but Hollywood is always awful at realizing potential.
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Mission Impossible with Peter Graves?
 
Section 31 is one of those concepts that I have zero doubt Roddenberry himself would have hated. (Don't get me wrong, I don't idolize him, and I do disagree with him being so uptight with stories, but I don't blame him for trying to keep the hope and optimism and not turning Star Trek into another run-of-the-mill dystopian future story.) But even in DS9, they used them respectfully. It was made very clear that your average Starfleet member was conflicted about them, at best. Nobody was really proud to be associated with them.

I am also sure TNG's Picard would have absolutely been against them and might have even started fighting them. Their very existence is against everything he ever believed in. And everyone that truly believed in the federation's ideals for that matter.

In my mind, they could have worked not as an official branch, not even a secret branch, but a group of humans in positions of power who gave in to fear and tried to rationalize their actions with the Federation Charter. Funding isn't an issue in the future. So all they had to do is use fear to convince talented Starfleet people to do shady things in the name of peace.
 
According to Inquistion, Section 31 was authorized by the original Starfleet charter.

So in the Enterprise finale, Troi and Riker are also witnessing the birth of Section 31.

THOSE PS1 GRAPHICS.jpg

It's like Vogon poetry.
 
Mystery Spy said:
Section 31 is one of those concepts that I have zero doubt Roddenberry himself would have hated.
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Ah, Section 31. Power-hungry Starfleet bastards fighting bigger bastards abroad.

That’s what hack writers use Section 31 for, all while patting themselves on the back for “gritty realism” like they’d discovered fire.
 
Human nature hasn't changed that much in the future. There are still corrupted officers who try to rationalize their fucked up ideas and beliefs. Section 31 can exist as a concept, but it's poorly developed in context of current stories bc there is really not an actual ethical incentive for it to exist.
 
Tasty Tatty said:
Human nature hasn't changed that much in the future. There are still corrupted officers who try to rationalize their fucked up ideas and beliefs. Section 31 can exist as a concept, but it's poorly developed in context of current stories bc there is really not an actual ethical incentive for it to exist.
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It's mental retcon on my part, but I like to think of Section 31 as the branch of Starfleet Intelligence that got sick of Picard, and Sisko sometimes, cockblocking them. By the 24th century, they got more active because Picard would sabotage the efforts of more combat-oriented officers like Maxwell and Satie. Disgruntled officers that theoretically should be in Federation prison were given leave to do Section 31 things.
 
Space Police said:
Except it didn't really feel like Star Trek because it was mostly stupid, boring nonsense that went nowhere with a few exceptions. Where's the awe-inspiring stuff and the scary situations they always find a way out of?
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I rewatched Enterprise recently. The first and fourth seasons feel a lot like you describe. The second season is a bit of a slog (but the Borg episode is actually great) and I detest the third season.
 
IDontLikeLiberals said:
I rewatched Enterprise recently. The first and fourth seasons feel a lot like you describe. The second season is a bit of a slog (but the Borg episode is actually great) and I detest the third season.
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I thought Enterprise fans were all about that Xindi war drama?

Scott was asked to convey some of the heaviest emotions. (And looked like he was fighting a battle with a bad burrito) :|
 
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Captain Syrup said:
I thought Enterprise fans were all about that Xindi war drama?

Scott.was asked to convey some of the heaviest emotions. (And looked like he was fighting a battle with a bad burrito) :\
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The third season was too grimdark for what the show was supposed to be.
The fourth season found the perfect balance between inserting stuff fans know (Andorians, Tellarites, Organians, Orions etc) and presenting in a context that made sense to set up the founding of the federation.
It's what the show should have been from the beginning, and it sucks balls it was cut off at the knees when it was just getting really good.
 
Oh, the Andorians... I expected more from them. They blend right in with the Klingons—or, even some of the minor war-loving races that Picard and Janeway tried to redeem. It’s like they’re just one anger management seminar away from being a Federation footnote,
 
Mystery Spy said:
Sure, maybe it works in other stuff—in moderation—but in Star Trek? It’s grating. If you won’t take your own story seriously, why should we?
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that's what happens when you have shitty writers growing up on a diet of other shitty writing. it became clear 10 years ago with ghostbusters 2016, they only know how to write one character - the funny one - so everybody became venkman.

Judge Holden said:
Joss Whedon needs to be impaled Cannibal Holocaust style in a public ceremony at the centre of Hollywood
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not his fault shitty writers are so shit they can't copy his style properly. hate to defend him but if you look at buffy/firefly, he knows how to do it properly (and why people are so desperate to ape it without understanding why it worked).

besides, even if you cut the quips you're still stuck with retarded characters, plots void of any common sense and writers giving zero fucks about the source material. ffs you could transplant firefly into star trek it would still work for the most part and given all the kurzman drek trek still shit all over it easily.

Captain Syrup said:
Oh, the Andorians... I expected more from them. They blend right in with the Klingons—or, even some of the minor war-loving races that Picard and Janeway tried to redeem. It’s like they’re just one anger management seminar away from being a Federation footnote,
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that's because we've only see most of it in ENT after they had to constantly deal with vulcans and their BS. in later seasons we would probably have seen them mellow out after getting buddies with humans and find common ground with the stuck up knife-ears.
 
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