Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

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The supposedly cool contrarians becoming fans of JKR is funny since she basically has the same politics as a Hillary Clinton lib.
I'm not a fan of JKR at all, she's a basic white woman with the cultural sensitivity of a turnip. Every attempt by her to expound on the lore of her children's fantasy series has ranged from hilariously out of touch to embarrassing over-sharing.
I just recognize what motivated the gaywashing of Dumbledore.

EDIT: also fuck off with your passive-aggressive rainbows, rate me disagree if you actually do.
 
I mean, do you believe J.K. when she says Dumbledore is gay?

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Seduction training is totally a thing in CIA schools. Think of it as selling his body out of love for Cardassia. At least that's what I got out of it. My read is that Garak wasn't employed by the Cardassian government as a spy. The purpose of his work is try to rehabilitate his image in the hope of ending his exile. He tried passing on information to Cardassia and no one cared.

After that, it got complicated. Garak started to have a nervous breakdown and needed someone to confide in.

There is also Acting, spys have to be VERY good at it in the field if they want to keep doing things like breathing. There is a reason why a lot of actors of some serious note all have intelligence work on there files and a number of them has seriously interesting lives before acting, Hollywood was a source of income for them after they reiterd and also a source of recruits for things like makeup and story telling.

During WW2 there was The School of Ungentlemanly War fair, it was a branch of the SOE and they recruited a lot of prop makers and oddly a number of script writers to come up with ideas and then turn them into reality, this started of as mundane things like a compas you can make from your buttons, right the way upto Exploding dead rats, and single shot posien dart guns built into a cigarette.

This didn't end with WW2 but it got pruned back a fair bit in the late 60's and 70's, but those skills and ideas still live on to this day.
 
There is also Acting
Picard is a psyop?:jaceknife:

mel-gibson.jpg
 
I actually lost a ton of respect for Ira Steven Behr when he started claiming Garak and Bashir were supposed to be gay but UPN wouldn't let him do it. 1, because that's clearly a bullshit fan theory invented by fujoshits, and 2, it takes away from one of the best friendships in the series.

Side note: it's interesting how Bashir eventually became a bromance vehicle once the writers realized making his sole personality trait simping over Jadzia wasn't really doing much to make the character popular.
Dude Garak was a huge faggot (I mean this affectionately) and he was definitely trying to fuck Bashir in those first few seasons, my interpretation was always that he eventually realises he values him more as a friend but I agree if Behr had followed through on that it would have sucked and been a lot less interesting than whatever weird "friendship" they had going on.
And besides, its not gay if its with a lizard.
 
Who needs science in sci-fi, I guess. Remember how Discovery had red lights turning on all across the galaxy and they showed up on the screen instantly? Kiwiridge Farms remembers.
I actually haven't seen a single episode of Discovery or Picard. I actually respect myself and my time.
 
I mean, do you believe J.K. when she says Dumbledore is gay.
I actually do believe that particular one. I know she went a bit overboard with it afterwards before finally being canceled by Twitter, but the “Dumbledore is/was gay” one was easy to believe, especially in the last book when you go into his backstory. Not an absolute proof, but a “oh yeah, I can see it” kinda thing.
 
DS9 is filled with awesome bromances. Quark and Odo, Nog and Jake, Worf and O'Brien has some good moments too.

I hate that anything made before 2000 that has strong male friendships means gay. It's dumb as shit.
I hate that it persists even in modern fiction. This is a tangent unrelated to Star Trek, but it's something that's bothered me in another fictional universe I enjoy.
So I've been a fan of the Destiny games since they started, with the story being a major reason for that. It's built up into quite a fleshed-out universe that's surprisingly mostly un-pozzed, despite Bungie being headquartered in the Seattle bughive. But there's one relationship that feels like an absolute missed opportunity that was thrown aside for cheap diversity points.

Two somewhat legendary figures, Osiris and Saint-14, were first hinted at only in stories in the first game, with both characters having disappeared a long time before the game started. Osiris was a scholarly Warlock who devoted his life to studying the robotic Vex, while Saint-14 was a stalwart Titan whose legendary feats became the pinnacle example of what a Guardian should be. Osiris vanished into a Vex domain, and Saint-14 followed after him in an attempt to find and retrieve him.

In the second game, you manage to find and free Osiris, but learn that Saint-14 perished after a long time battling the Vex, with the bots even building him a tomb out of respect. A couple years later, however, you manage some time travel fuckery that lets you assist Saint when he should have perished, and he returns to life in the present.

The writing had always been pretty vague up to this point as to their relationship, and I'd always read it as two lifelong friends and comrades, an unbreakable friendship where each one admires the other's strengths and shores up their weaknesses. I viewed it as a positive depiction of healthy male relationships, and I could see it being used as an example to show that you can care about your friends without it meaning you're gay for them.

Then eventually one of the writers explicitly said "yeah no I was being too vague about it, they're definitely gay."

Immediately, all that positive characterization gets chucked out the window. Scenes between them after this weren't written graphically, so there wasn't anything like man-on-bot buttsex, but it got more explicit and less vague (one scene is essentially a lover's quarrel that's resolved when one affectionately strokes the cheek of the other, a very heterosexual thing to do). Fujos squealed that their ship was confirmed, but I just rolled my eyes and added it to the pile of forced diversity.

It's not enough to completely ruin the story or their characters for me, but it feels like the cheap and lazy way out instead of a more nuanced and complex approach.
I think about all the times that feminists were saying that men need to learn how to express their feelings and that it doesn't mean they're gay or sissies for doing so. And then I look at how fujos treat any male pair as secretly gay for each other, or writers shoving gay pairings everywhere, and I can't help but think about how that's sending the exact opposite signal. If you're constantly told that caring about your bro means you want to fuck him, won't that just cause you to clam up for fear of being identified as something you're not or damaging your friendship? They're literally creating the kind of environment that breeds the "toxic masculinity" they so decry, and they either don't see it or don't care.
 
I actually lost a ton of respect for Ira Steven Behr when he started claiming Garak and Bashir were supposed to be gay but UPN wouldn't let him do it. 1, because that's clearly a bullshit fan theory invented by fujoshits, and 2, it takes away from one of the best friendships in the series.

Side note: it's interesting how Bashir eventually became a bromance vehicle once the writers realized making his sole personality trait simping over Jadzia wasn't really doing much to make the character popular.

I'm going to somewhat disagree with you. I think you see it in a couple of episodes very early on and its kind of funny.

Garak places his hands on Bashir's shoulders and Andrew Robinson's performance has him practically salivating over being able to take his measurements. Garak does things in such a way as if he's trying to sound him out a little, to see if he can have a bit of fun with a rather nice young whelp of a doctor, you have to remember for the charatcer the whole location is utter and complete torture to him and any idle distraction works very well for him. There's definitely an undercurrent of tension that sure as fuck isn't bromance or establishing a friendship in the earlier episodes with Garak.

The key and beautiful turning point is the Episode The Wire, where the implant begins failing and it starts to outright kill him.

Now the fusjoshits at thos point begin slicking their unwashed, unused pussies and talk breathlessly about how this is where their romance should totally have begun. What we got instead was a far, far superior storyline and development point. Heck, looking back now it is a good place to maybe nudge and push that boundary but, but, the network putting the brakes on it instead creates a superior storyline and relationship. Sometimes confines are more liberating than the free-for-alls we've seen.

Garak sees the doctor helping him through possibly the worst experience of his life so far, far worse than banishment, far worse than the lights and temperature which always leaves him uncomfortable. The snide remarks if a fellow Cardassian ever sees him, the lack of the drug of pleasue results in him being a foul creature to deal with and yet, and yet this doctor who was made clearly uncomfortable by his earlier actions that amused him so much, that could easily walk out that door and leave him to his fate... simply doesn't. He stays, he helps him, he's there for him for no reason other than he's actually enjoyed the company during dinner when Garak himself wasnt acting like a hound dogging dick.

And as the need for the pleasure drug steadily fades we don't see love, we see that deeper cameraderie form instead. We see Garak actually respect Bashir for his act of selflessness something he's probably never seen before in his life as an Obsidian Order member where loyalty is the key, even if you yourself dont beleive it.

And that's where the big difference is, Julian Bashir earns the respect of Elim Garak. Something truly, and whole heartedly far more valuable to both than a simple dalliance might've created.
 
I've always thought that fan theiory was stupid, but I've always thought that if Garrack thought it was for the best for Cardasia he would take it up the pooper or go to brown town if needed, but he and Bashir was always a very friendly relationship and nothing more just one based on a mutual affection for one another nothing more.

As far as I am aware the only Gay relationship ever knocked back or even proposed pre new trek was supposedly 7 and Janeway but the Studio didn't like it, the idea didn't test well with non hardcore fans and the Actresses hated each other to the point Jerry Ryan said she would walk off set and never come back just of normal interaction let alone a romance arc.
Exactly. As I said before:
I will ever insist that Garak was "jobsexual" and only gay or straight as he needed to be for the task at hand.

Maybe when he was in school and young he might have had a genuine crush or feelings, but after going through the academy (and what happened with his "parents") I would definitely say that he would suppress and be suspicious of anything approaching real affection. Or any emotion that might compromise his service to Cardassia.
 
Garak places his hands on Bashir's shoulders and Andrew Robinson's performance has him practically salivating over being able to take his measurements. Garak does things in such a way as if he's trying to sound him out a little, to see if he can have a bit of fun with a rather nice young whelp of a doctor, you have to remember for the charatcer the whole location is utter and complete torture to him and any idle distraction works very well for him. There's definitely an undercurrent of tension that sure as fuck isn't bromance or establishing a friendship in the earlier episodes with Garak
It's also possible to interpret that Garak knew about Bashir's secret and was moving "close" to him in order to have leverage over one of the higher ranking Starfleet officers.

In fact I like to think as a joke that Garak WAS coming onto Bashir because he misinterpreted the doctor as gay and thought that was how he could manipulate the human. (But he never really cared about the guy until later in the show.)

And as the need for the pleasure drug steadily fades we don't see love, we see that deeper cameraderie form instead. We see Garak actually respect Bashir for his act of selflessness something he's probably never seen before in his life as an Obsidian Order member where loyalty is the key, even if you yourself dont beleive it.

And that's where the big difference is, Julian Bashir earns the respect of Elim Garak. Something truly, and whole heartedly far more valuable to both than a simple dalliance might've created
Totally agree with you here and that the restriction made a stronger story.
 
0yeah he actually acted a whole minute in that film.

Also props to John for doing a solid Reed Richards.
Yeah and wasn't like his performance in Picard. Which again turns out he can still act well especially in something he's only in for like 2 minutes. So the guy is legit just choosing to give a shitty performance in Picard just to lecture us.

John wasn't bad. It was just weird in my opinion seeing the fan art come to life.
 
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