Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

  • Want to keep track of this thread?
    Accounts can bookmark posts, watch threads for updates, and jump back to where you stopped reading.
    Create account
I really find the Q a very interesting species, or phenomenon or whatever they're properly classified as. Not just DeLancie Q, but all of them are so different and weird compared to humans that it's criminal how little they're utilized when they can be used to do so much - and not just the writers' hated "snap away the trouble of the episode" trope. Beings that think being human-esque is to be 'ultra super hammy' have a lot of potential.

I think your right but they are or where worried about bringing in to much Q because it would be a constant easy out for the finger snap problem when they would rather Science Mumbo Jumbo there way through.

If there was a more relaxed Trek, where it was more TNG civilian or alike where there was a more regular Q interaction could work - it wouldn't work in NuTrek but it could have worked.
 
The novels - not just in Star Trek but in most works - have always been "canon insomuch as they haven't been contradicted" which means that no future writing ever has to reference it, nor are they bound by anything established in it
Capable of binding something or establishing bounds is the definition of a canon. If a novel isn't binding on anything, it's not canonical.

Roddenberry always maintained the Star Trek canon was the live action TV series and films (though I've heard he waffled on certain elements). That's been the rule of subsequent producers, though they have from time to time pronounced canonical status on books they were trying to sell--Jeri Taylor's Voyager novel and Countdown being the only examples I can think of. Ultimately, no TV writer is going to be constrained by anything in a mass market paperback, comic book, or video game. No matter what they say to sell their books and vidya, they're not going to treat them as canon.
 
Odo is always wonderful, unironically I'd love to see people with his exact personality be all the real life police in the world, and Quark despite holding to every trait of Jewish scam artists was always fun to watch.

Watching Armin Shimmerman and Rene Auberjonois interact was great and the characters themselves were always wonderful on screen in that hilarious mutually respectful nemesis pair.

Most importantly, and perhaps key in the writing, is Quark is the only person he doesn't say goodbye to. Everyone else he speaks to as he heads back to the great link and hopes to see them again and if not farewell, Quark truly gets nothing because deep down, he knows he'll come back and see him. Quark really was his first friend.
 
The novels - not just in Star Trek but in most works - have always been "canon insomuch as they haven't been contradicted" which means that no future writing ever has to reference it, nor are they bound by anything established in it, but they could choose to be. Certain things like AR experiences and fanfiction or whatever have always been "noncanon" which means they'll never be referenced, and if something happens that's along those same lines or appears to reference it, it's by coincidence. Official entries like tv shows are considered "canon" because they're generally expected to follow established rules and if they establish new rules or have new events, future entries are expected to adhere to those as well.
Its worth noting there's nothing to actually stop writers from declaring something non-canon to suddenly be canon and adapt it into the story. If, for instance, the showrunners of the next series declared that the random videogame Star Trek: Shattered Universe was canon and this series would be a direct sequel to it, there's no actual rule saying it can't be canon just because the series has ignored all previous videogames in the franchise.

The reason they don't do this of course is that they may need to pay royalties to the game writers, or the company that made assets to the game, or something else that would be legal trouble for them so this act is obviously avoided. But the reason they avoid doing this isn't really because of an actual canon policy, is my point.

Its also worth noting that in the early days of TNG when Roddenberry had a tight deathgrip on the show, he went as far as to declare the unthinkable, that TOS was in the same quasi-canon realm as the tie-ins where it was considered canon until contradicted by TNG.

Usually I put games somewhere between novels and fanfiction in their level of canonicity, where they're bound by the rules established elsewhere in the franchise, but they'll probably never have any impact on anything in the 'main' canon. The only reason I look at STO differently is because the makers of it were so adamant that while there were no more ST shows continuing the main timeline (especially so once the Kelvin movies started), the Star Trek continuity officially continued in their hands - and they had the writers' credits and the such to show for it.
STO is a divergent case but I think its ultimately the same deal. Its a good effort, but on a fundamental level its plots are ultimately going to be in service to an MMO. Ignoring the quality of the writing here just for a moment, certain events in STO, like the galaxy being sharply divided by a resurgent Klingon Empire and the Federation, and the return of the Iconians as a massive threat are, indisputably, MMO RPG plots. Because you need the faction system for an MMO, at least a modern one anyway. And you need a larger overarching threat so both factions can participate in the action. The Gorn being annexed by the Klingons is another example, its definitely there to make them playable.

The actual quality of these plots may or may not be any good, depending on who you ask. But its unlikely the staff on a new Trek show would have written plots like this. At least, it was unlikely in the vacuum before NuTrek lowered our expectations to rock bottom anyway. You have the narrative bending in service to gameplay, which is a common issue in games altogether. Having to sit there and make that work with the rest of the setting would be something of a headache for anyone trying to continue the story.

I keep harping on the Interplay games, 25th Anniversary and Judgment Rites, but they're also a good comparison example here. They did feature the TOS cast, they do fit into the established timeline (TOS was supposed to be a five year mission, only had three seasons, four if you count all of TAS as one year, and the two Interplay games would actually make for five) and the writing on them was generally acknowledged to be stellar. Additionally, there was obviously not planned to be anymore TOS after TAS ended in the 70s, so the Interplay games are in a weird way an "official" continuation of TOS. They remain non-canon because, well, they're mostly forgotten about.

At the end of the day, you can't really expect the average viewer to go play all the old games, in the same way you can't expect the average viewer to run out and spend thousands of hours grinding in STO to continue the story. Reading a book is also something of a time investment for people. But you can reasonably expect a someone who watched a TV show to watch more TV, so its a pretty fair line of demarcation to say that the TV shows and movies are canon and everything else isn't.

At least before NuTrek it was.

Admittedly the writing and stories are mostly just middling, but it's still much better than anything NuTrek or KelvinTrek had to offer. It's unfortunate they decided to keep Romulus' sun blowing up because 'technically that was in the main timeline', but unlike every other entry that just takes it at face value that a sun could randomly explode and ruin an entire star spanning empire, they at least try to make it make sense. It's much better than the ridiculous Romulan Refugees and Only Truthers And Swords that Picard came up with.
It is an objectively better story, and I've only read a fraction of it on wikis and shit. But for me the time investment into an MMO is a huge barrier for entry, and there are only so many Youtube compilations I can watch before tipping over (I couldn't make it past two hours into the Klingon Academy video, its just too tedious). STO's never going to be canon for me because its too steep and honestly too silly, no matter what the company says.
 
I think your right but they are or where worried about bringing in to much Q because it would be a constant easy out for the finger snap problem when they would rather Science Mumbo Jumbo there way through.

If there was a more relaxed Trek, where it was more TNG civilian or alike where there was a more regular Q interaction could work - it wouldn't work in NuTrek but it could have worked.
It's a shame they decided to do just the one throwaway episode with Q in DS9, because DS9 is exactly the type of show that could easily allow exploring more of Q (the continuum, not just the DeLancie being) in ways that aren't just 'create a problem, remove the problem with Q magic later'. Novels also did a good job of using Q, though mostly it was only the one we know and not the others. (The novels even put in the effort to remember Amanda existed after her episode and had her take part in the Q wars)

Incidentally, on a minor tangent - all the Q are supposedly something like 12 quintillion years old, and Picard indicates they all just grow old and die at some point in the 24th century, right? Wouldn't that mean everyone except q and Amanda, because they're both young even by human standards? So from yet another angle, the Q still aren't gone due to those two outliers. But bringing it back in line with NuTrek - choosing not to bring in and properly explore Q because they're bad at finding ways to utilize him that isn't 'magic genie fix' I can buy, because that's common for mediocre writers. But him dying in Picard? No way that was anything but an ego trip and Patrick Stewart struggling with his own mortality. He won't stop hammering the point home that people get old and die and that's just how it is, like he's trying to convince himself instead of the audience.

--

@L50LasPak - It's true that they can just flip around and make anything canon as much as they make it noncanon, except for fanfiction which is strictly not allowed due to the mess of legal issues that arise from officially acknowledging the existence of fanfiction. (Though that does still make certain strict lines of canonicity even in the loosest of terms - where what's in the "main" media of something is assumed to hold true in the future, something in an alternate media can be but isn't assumed to be, and fanfiction is not, will not, and cannot ever be). In the end it suits them best to try to be vaguely consistent with what they suddenly choose to make canon as much as what they suddenly choose to make noncanon, though, as their viewers need to be expected to generally know where to look to keep updated. If books should be read because they could be canon at some point (or like in Doctor Who, audio plays) then viewers will want to know that. If not, then it befits the viewer to know it's a waste of their time to read them if they're just "catching up".

It seems like the various things I'm hearing about Roddenberry is that he's not particularly good at managing a franchise, much as he wasn't particularly great at writing science fiction. That he ended up credited with one of the biggest science fiction franchises in history is an amusing accident, apparently.

the galaxy being sharply divided by a resurgent Klingon Empire and the Federation, and the return of the Iconians as a massive threat are, indisputably, MMO RPG plots.

While I don't disagree with your point, I suspect that they might actually be somewhat accurate to Star Trek writer plans, given that the Klingons declaring war on the Federation again is along the same lines as Discovery's initial plot being about the Klingons declaring war on the Federation, and to me the Iconian threat felt like a hail mary to try to explain Romulan star going nova. JJ Abrams clearly didn't think it through, he just wanted a quick 'scifi' excuse to split off the timeline and have his own version of TOS to play with and sex up. Examining it even a little causes the whole thing to fall apart - including why the practical walking ghost Spock was the one tasked with dealing with Romulus' star when the Federation and Romulans both have far better and far less near-death scientists to deal with such an emergency. Ones who wouldn't be so far away that a sun literally goes super nova waiting on them to get there. "It was all a plot by ultra powerful sinister time traveling aliens" is weak - and convenient for the MMO plot - but I can't blame them for it.

They also use Q better than Picard ever did. I can only hope they choose to ignore the whole 'Q all died off' thing going forward, as he heavily features in their annual events.

That said, I agree that now that shows are going again and STO isn't the only source of Star Trek, they really should have some kind of streamlined version made into video form that people could use to keep track of it without having to actually play the game. Also, I remember and quite enjoyed Judgment Rites. I think it's a shame that people generally separate the visual mediums like TV and movies from everything else, as you say. I feel like that's a prejudice that existed from the time Charlie and the Chocolate Factory was written, where people who watch TV just sit and drool and are physically incapable of ingesting anything higher effort. Most franchises can be improved by including at least some of their written work as canon.

STO's never going to be canon for me because its too steep and honestly too silly, no matter what the company says.

To be fair this is also how I feel about Picard. It's never going to be canon to me no matter what the company says. If I ignore the whole Mikey Spock thing, I can accept Discovery as just a really lame entry into canon, but Picard contradicts and tramples over so much of existing canon and provides no benefit in return - and I recall reading at some point that in s1 they weren't allowed to use star ship interiors that had the look and feel of TNG ships due to licensing reasons - that I simply cannot accept it as canon. It's a self-deleting paradox.
 
To be honest I think Picard only really exists so Stuart and Kirkman can have a final phlegm filled spit on the fandom.

No core fan of the show has enjoyed the nu-Trek stuff all that much and a lot of the characters both old and new have been shittily written.

Everyone got bored and wandered off from Discovery and its labourious season-long-treadmill. Same with Picard, it's kind of dull and the best episode was a, what? Twenty minute chunk in which Frakes, Stuart and Sirtis hang out at their nice cabin. I've got one friend who's been extolling me it's boring season 2 virtues but he's also the sort to Enjoy Product.

And you can see it in the new actors in the shows, they're new to this and seem largely there about the paycheck because they do nothing but waffle endlessly on about the "legacy" and how "great it is to be part of this legacy" because they're really interested in that marking themselves in televisual stone so they can always get work somewhere because they were involved in Trek.

Then you get Lower Decks and SNW, which are run by fans. They're people who grew up on it. Anson Mount himself has talked about how much of a Trek nerd he is and you can hear the hissing and slobbering of nerdy retainers coming from the Lower Decks Writing Room as they see how many references and jokes they can get away with.

Its reaching points of night-and-day by this point.
 
@Allanon it wont let me quote you but -

It seems like the various things I'm hearing about Roddenberry is that he's not particularly good at managing a franchise, much as he wasn't particularly great at writing science fiction. That he ended up credited with one of the biggest science fiction franchises in history is an amusing accident, apparently.

Your right he wasnt very good at anything, he was one of a small but oddly connected Sci-Fi writers he was friends with that included people like DC-Fontanna and L Ron Hubbard, and quite a few others who where big in the sci-fi bi-weekleys at the time, Roddenberry and Hubbard are the only ones who really attained any kind of mainstream acceptance and with the latter it would better be termed infamy.

Roddenberry, was a Failed Cop, who was a Pilot who didn't have the skill or talent to write and carry a show on his own but he was really good at self promotion so made sure that everything trek mentioned his name, and he tried to keep a iron fist on production as long as he could and tried to make it last as log as he could even past his death by having Majel Barerrett written into every trek he could contractually including having her voice the computers in Trek and recording voice for instalments to use post her death so his kids can benefit from the recordings (there is a reason they have not used them in Picard and that's $).

All the offical writing about him is very friendly but if you read stuff or watch / listen to interviews with other people who had interactions with him personally but didn't have to report to him they are far from flattering and quite a few mention stuff that would get him not just Me Too'ed in the current era but downright arrested.
 
One of the bigger complaints I've heard is how SNW used Ukrainan protest footage from before the war as a standing for aliens and some of the hyperleft are clutching their pearls over the insensitivity.

And using under 3 seconds of Jan 6th had some rightoid gibbons in here flinging shit.

So it's hit the balance just right.
 
@L50LasPak
keep harping on the Interplay games, 25th Anniversary and Judgment Rites, but they're also a good comparison example here. They did feature the TOS cast, they do fit into the established timeline (TOS was supposed to be a five year mission, only had three seasons, four if you count all of TAS as one year, and the two Interplay games would actually make for five) and the writing on them was generally acknowledged to be stellar. Additionally, there was obviously not planned to be anymore TOS after TAS ended in the 70s, so the Interplay games are in a weird way an "official" continuation of TOS. They remain non-canon because, well, they're mostly forgotten about.
If you want a more literal example, there is the video game Elite Force;

And the Voyager episode, The Void
 
My vote goes to Phlox because I think he's the only doctor who would commit severe medical malpractise to save my life
Would Bones grow a clone of you from a sentient organism then raise that clone to kill it to harvest its brain? I think not.
My headcanon is his entire species are just fundamentally less moral than others, yet not in a way that makes them obviously evil.

They're just really polite, well mannered, looks after their friends and family, delightful to have over at family dinners and if someone wants to commit an atrocity they'll happily assist.
I actually lost a ton of respect for Ira Steven Behr when he started claiming Garak and Bashir were supposed to be gay but UPN wouldn't let him do it. 1, because that's clearly a bullshit fan theory invented by fujoshits, and 2, it takes away from one of the best friendships in the series.

Side note: it's interesting how Bashir eventually became a bromance vehicle once the writers realized making his sole personality trait simping over Jadzia wasn't really doing much to make the character popular.
lol, those two were absolutely gay.
 
@Allanon it wont let me quote you but -



Your right he wasnt very good at anything, he was one of a small but oddly connected Sci-Fi writers he was friends with that included people like DC-Fontanna and L Ron Hubbard, and quite a few others who where big in the sci-fi bi-weekleys at the time, Roddenberry and Hubbard are the only ones who really attained any kind of mainstream acceptance and with the latter it would better be termed infamy.

Roddenberry, was a Failed Cop, who was a Pilot who didn't have the skill or talent to write and carry a show on his own but he was really good at self promotion so made sure that everything trek mentioned his name, and he tried to keep a iron fist on production as long as he could and tried to make it last as log as he could even past his death by having Majel Barerrett written into every trek he could contractually including having her voice the computers in Trek and recording voice for instalments to use post her death so his kids can benefit from the recordings (there is a reason they have not used them in Picard and that's $).

All the offical writing about him is very friendly but if you read stuff or watch / listen to interviews with other people who had interactions with him personally but didn't have to report to him they are far from flattering and quite a few mention stuff that would get him not just Me Too'ed in the current era but downright arrested.
If they had invented trooning out to dodge responsibility back then Gene Rod totally would have done it.
 
It's hard to piece together since it's all in shitty novels nobody should ever read, posted on the insufferable TrekBBS, and in interviews with the paid fanfic authors who think they're god's gift to literature. I need to be a few drinks deep before even checking in on that shit.

(Holy shit the author posts on trekbbs are obnoxious. They really do NOT like any criticism of their work.)

Beyer's career trajectory is fascinating though. Just purely on the numbers, having a job that she wants is a very dangerous place for someone's career. At every step the people ahead of her have been fired or quit, often in ugly circumstances, and she's moved into their role without the qualifications, so that this fanfic writer that brought us Icheb's Eyeball, Pirate Picard, and Tilly, is now one of the most powerful people in Trek.
whats her backstory, just checked wikia; she basically just popped into existence in the 2000s, and outside of one or two stories her entire writing career started in 2009 with voyager. so she went from fanfic to getting a co-creator credit in the span of 10 years. mind you her contemporaries with creator credits all have extensive credits dating back to the 1980s. so she's a pretty big outlier.
So instead of an unknown calamity in the near future, one which is unknown because it can't be predicted, and because it's supposed to be a mirror to the audience, "its us if we're not careful", they've specified that it was specifically the "alt right" / political wrongthinkers who started a civil war, then Eugenics Wars, then WW3. Nu-Trek canon is conservatives caused the apocalypse that gave rise to the Federation.
that sucks, if it was really a return to "classic trek" they'd say the eugenics wars started because a couple of dicks in Wisconsin kept critiquing a eugenics company and belittling it to the point that they went full mad scientist.

Pretty weird that the alt-right never gets mentioned in the much closer Enterprise or First Contact.
View attachment 3251714
We don't know why but he's lost the will to live.

APOLOGIZE!
All they had to do was use WW2 instead, all the destruction leading up to and then the dropping atomic bombs and it would have had the same impact on the culture they were trying to sway.

I'm pretty sure one of the videos they used showing a city destroyed they switched from CGI to stock footage of one of the atomic bomb tests anyway.
considering what we know about the lies of ww2, i bet a bunch of people (especially on Argentine kiwifarms) were pissed about the ww2 the good guys won bullshit too.
 
I love how people continue to screech about the under 3 seconds visual rather than the actual point of the fucking monologue which is "retardedly tying yourself to a flag or faction on the basis of having to destroy the other is what led to our hubris and the nuking of the planet." I am legit tempted to go cut it from the episode and see how long it actually is and put it here.

The choice Pike gives them is either "go the fuck ahead retards" or "pull back from the brink and become part of something greater". Which considering the screeching shitflinging US politics currently is is probably a good message to push right now.

But no, MUH JAN 6TH.
 
My headcanon is his entire species are just fundamentally less moral than others, really polite, well mannered, looks after their friends and family, delightful to have over at family dinners and if someone wants to commit an atrocity they'll happily assist.
He is an amazing scientist but a terrible doctor because he broke the Hippocratic oath. As far as his patients went, I reckon that he was effective to those who caught his interest, and a menace to those he cared little for.

1960d29adcb106cee20a38fe8da562df.jpg

the lies of ww2, the good guys won bullshit.
Best thing about WW2 was Hitler wiping out entitled trash like Wilhelm and his cousins across Europe. Too bad Hitler was an infantile idiot.
 
Last edited:
That's Cardassia's gimmick.

He is an amazing scientist but a terrible doctor because he broke the Hippocratic oath. As far as his patients went, I reckon that he was effective to those who caught his interest, and a menace to those he cared little for.

View attachment 3264345

Best thing about WW2 was Hitler wiping out entitled trash like Wilhelm and his cousins across Europe. Too bad Hitler was an infantile idiot.
Yeah pretty much. Very amoral. But I don't really mind him that much.
 
I love how people continue to screech about the under 3 seconds visual rather than the actual point of the fucking monologue which is "retardedly tying yourself to a flag or faction on the basis of having to destroy the other is what led to our hubris and the nuking of the planet." I am legit tempted to go cut it from the episode and see how long it actually is and put it here.

The choice Pike gives them is either "go the fuck ahead retards" or "pull back from the brink and become part of something greater". Which considering the screeching shitflinging US politics currently is is probably a good message to push right now.

But no, MUH JAN 6TH.
You don't have to. @Memology 101 already did.

I'd say take that sequence out and put in MLK's March on Washington instead. See how it reads then.
 
Back
Top Bottom