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I want to see what other hot takes that episode guide has, because The Wire was one of the best.
Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier
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- Jan 18, 2019
Wow what fucking episode guide were you using? I thought it was generally agreed upon that The Wire is among the best of DS9s first few seasons.
One thing I really appreciate about this one is how its built entirely on well written character drama, there isn't much in the way of plot or even stakes really, no antagonist, no big set pieces, its the kind of story I don't think nutrek would ever be able to pull off. The fact that the ending only raises even more questions but it still feels like a satisfying conslusion is nice too. I'm honestly suprised they had an episode like this in the second season but I guess it goes to show how much they stepped up the character writing after season 1. I've always disagreed with people who claim that DS9 only "gets good" in S4, you can really see the show starting to take shape in S2 and S3 its just that S4 is the first one to be consistently great.
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- Sep 25, 2019
I leaned on what the old bastard who runs Ex Astris Scientia had to say for quite awhile. He's something of a curmudgeon and he's more likely to rate an episode as mediocre if it doesn't grab him. Most of the time this means he'll rarely recommend a bad episode but if you only watch the stuff he rates very highly you can end up overlooking a lot of okay-to-good stuff like I did early on. At least he still hates NuTrek too, for the most part.
Another part of the reason I skipped over the episode was because I was watching it with a friend and we didn't really have the time or the patience to binge the entire series. We started at Improbable Cause/The Die Is Cast for the record so this isn't entirely the guide's fault either.
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- Mar 7, 2016
As part of the What We Left Behind documentary Ihra and the writers began spitballing a theoretical Season 8, set 20 years later.
It would've:
Bajor's religiousness would've overtaken their entire society and DS9 would've become a religious cathedral in space with Sisko statues all along the promenade instead of the weight bearing thing.
Everyone they could get back drawn to DS9 via Quark's relentless messaging and random visions of Sisko to celebrate 20 years since the war concluded and to get everyone to finally pay off their damn bar tabs. Bashir and Ezri are still together and happily married.
Nog and the Defiant would've been kersploded as part of the cold open and general episodic hook, making it the main reason for the season (much to a completely exploding Aaron Eisenberg's rant which was amusing and even he couldn't maintain for the whole rant)
Molly O'Brien would've also become a main cast member, and the Defiant would've looked like an accident or a containment issue. She'd have been the only one to speak in Nog's firm defence as everyone kind of buggered off after DS9 to their new postings, while she knew him as the reliable and firm Captain he became.
Worf would've been drawn away from his grooming of being made the next Chancellor with an ageing Martok (which ties very neatly into the show Micheal Dorn has been trying to have made for a very very long time) of the same theme. He winds up meeting with Garak of all people who is his usual wonderfully written self (no doubt enhanced by Andrew Robinson) about the sercret Bajor is keeping from everyone.
The Alpha Quadrant Jem'Hadar are being baptized/made into followers of the Prophets and swearing loyalty to Bajor... by Vedek Kira Neriss herself.
Oh and its revealed the big bad overarching plot is.... Bashir is in charge of a revived and reformed Section 31 which has decided Bajor needs to become part of the Federation and their solution? Blowing up the Wormhole with cloaked Federation ships from the Gamma Quadrant side, cutting Bajor off from their gods and thus letting them fall back on their old friends, welcoming them into the fold.
Which Nog discovered and was killed for.
Oh and Sisko turns up at the very end of the episode because the "time was right once again".
And it was assumed to be a traditional long-form 26 episode run.
Basically the thing would've fucked sucked with its main plotline of "Bashir turns evil for some reason".
We've seen the Federation turn utterly insular in Picard for two seasons nearly and a good season+ in Discovery and it fucking suuuuuuuuucks.
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- Sep 25, 2019
Its generally agreed upon that the later seasons of DS9 were weakening anyway and it was probably smart that the series wrapped up when it did. A lot of that criticism comes from Dukat's second plotline admittedly which does suck. But people have to be crazy to ask for more when the ending we got already kind of left a lot of viewers underwhelmed.
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- Mar 7, 2016
The ending we did get was fine. The war was won by the good guys, everyone moved onto their new roles and posts.
The only person Odo didn't say goodbye to was Quark.
Everyone's plot was tied up and fine.
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- Jan 18, 2019
I'd be lying if I said there aren't parts of this premise that intrigue me, as much as I'm also sick of "federation bad" plotlines permeating nutrek the feds and the bajorans coming to blows over conflicting ideologies and ownership of the wormhole is completly plausable. The only reason that didn't happen more on the show was because Bajor was BTFO after the occupation and they basically had no other choice but to lean on them to survive. I could definitly see something like that happening later down the line once they've built themselves back up again and it intrests me a lot more than bajor just being assimilated into the federation. Having an new antagonistic empire that are insane religious fanatics would be pretty new for the show especially for how much they like to tiptoe around the federations stance on religion.
The section 31 stuff on the otherhand I agree sucks, maybe its my post-traumatic-disco-disorder but I don't want to see section 31 again, ever. It was used just the right amount on DS9 and everything since then has ranged from pointless to terrible, I fear for my sanity if the show thats in development hell about it ever comes to fruition. Bashir being the season antagonist is also pretty unrealistic, He did do some weird shit on occasion for the percieved greater good like trying to convince Sisko to just surrender to the dominion because less people would die, but this seems like a bridge too far. Maybe they could come up with a good reason for it but who knows.
I know its pretty pointless to analyse what is essentially a very lose pitch, especially when shows like Picard exist to show you can take a fairly decent idea and totally butcher it in execution. Overall though if your going to do a sequel show with the same characters I'd rather see something a bit weird like this where the gang gets back together and just hates each other (In the beginning at least) over uwu wholsome nostalgia feels circlejerk, which I can almost guarantee Picard S3 is going to be.
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- Joined
- Oct 4, 2019
That reminds me, there's going to be an unholy amount of Data circlejerk yet again in S3 because Brent Spiner just has to be in everything. I can see it now, they're all on the bridge, old, and Picard calls for data but stops mid way. Everyone looks down at the ground and somber music plays because for some reason after multiple seasons and movies and decades they expect us to not have gotten over his death. Well unless you want to count his season 1 "death" as his actual death but I think that plot point was so fucking stupid I don't consider it to be.
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- Jan 18, 2017
After how poorly the writers have handled everything related to Spiner's various characters you'd think he'd be pissed but the money is probably pretty good and from the look of it he just had to hang around LA and get an easy paycheque so who gives a fuck, right? Can you imagine reading the script and seeing "hit and run on Picard" and thinking wow this is really some top-tier writing?
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- Aug 31, 2020
He's just glad to be working, which is why the rest of the TNG cast said yes even though it reeks of desperation.
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- Jun 10, 2018
Do any of you visibly cringe when you watch an old TNG and it's an episode where Brent is "acting"? Any episode where Data's got some kind of emotion plotline is almost unwatchable for me.
Brent plays an excellent, nuanced android looking to be more human. Aside from that he's just not that good of an actor.
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- Jan 10, 2014
I think the cringeworthy performances he gave on TNG and in the movies were as much, if not more the fault of the writers and directors. Yeah, he tended to ham it up when doing stupid stuff like "Masks", the emotion chip sub-plot in Generations, and some of Lore's dumber moments - but Spiner also did some legitimately great work playing a more morally complex villain like Arik Soong on Enteprise, so I don't think he's untalented by any means.
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- Sep 25, 2019
Section 31 is in all honesty an absolutely terrible idea that DS9 against the odds managed to do right. I say against the odds because even for a show as good as DS9 Section 31 lends itself to all kinds of grimdark bullshit that DS9 thankfully skated around by implying that Section 31 may or may not have had official backing.
Its actually pretty skilled how the few DS9 episodes that use them justify the different characters deciding to help them and how they feel they're required to do so. Even a Starfleet admiral admits he doesn't know if they really exist, and ultimately decides to help them based on his own prerogative and his own beliefs. There's no sudden "I got my orders from on high, sorry" or "You can't handle the truth!". Ross actually has a pretty good speech at the end of Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges that mirrors Sisko's feelings in In The Pale Moonlight which really makes Section 31 work for me.
Section 31 in DS9 is really not an established arm of the Federation that was somehow kept secret all these years, its more like a loose conspiracy of like-minded hardasses and fanatics that take advantage of vulnerable or sympathetic Federation officials and officers to get shit done since using any official channels would get them ripped apart. I compared them to glowies earlier in the thread, but DS9 Section 31 is a lot more nuanced than your typical glowie blackops organization in fiction.
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Standardized Profile
kiwifarms.net
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- Oct 5, 2018
That's a great cover story for a UFP covert action agency. It maintains deniability, and if things become to hot the UFP can always investigate it and "dissolve" it, moving all its assets to Section 32.
Grand Wizard Wakka
kiwifarms.net
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- May 30, 2020
I've enjoyed every episode of SNW so far. More than I can say for the first several episodes of most shows. I'm really shocked, considering how Picard s2 managed to find a new level of terribleness. I haven't enjoyed Trek this much though since DS9, and I never thought I'd enjoy Star Trek this much again. SNW is easily much better than Voyager and Enterprise, and I like Enterprise.
I think the all the likeable things about SNW haven't necessitated it being a prequel. I think if the setting was the future instead of the past, and these were new characters instead of new characters named after existing characters, that even more people would enjoy it. Seems like the only complaints, and only thing that takes me out of it sometimes too, is like "Eh, I don't see that as young Leonard Nemoy" and "Eh, that doesn't seem like it fits with things previously established" which all wouldn't be a problem if they didn't try to ride of the coattails of TOS references. The show is good enough to not need to. Like, most of the cringing at Laan seems to be at them forcing the Noonien Singh name on her for no reason. Pike in SNW is nothing like the original Pike, the opposite really (he was a military-type hardass, while nu-Pike is a jokey overly-friendly pushover) but he's extremely likeable regardless.
Still, for any of its "sins" like slight lore inconsistencies, its "transgressions" haven't been as bad as most Trek shows, even the good ones. Lets not pretend any Trek hasn't been full of inconsistencies and silly shit. I can't see how someone could hate SNW but like lolvoyager or Enterprise. A lot of TOS/TNG have been worse than any SNW so far. Though SNW also hasn't reached the high points that TOS/TNG did, yet.
Back in the day, people sperged about and hated Berman and Bragga and claimed they ruined Trek, the way they do Kurtzman now. A lot like how George Lucas "ruined Star Wars" with the prequels, and now the prequels are "beloved classics" and "if George was still in charge, the sequels would have been so good".
Its just funny how times change.
I think the all the likeable things about SNW haven't necessitated it being a prequel. I think if the setting was the future instead of the past, and these were new characters instead of new characters named after existing characters, that even more people would enjoy it. Seems like the only complaints, and only thing that takes me out of it sometimes too, is like "Eh, I don't see that as young Leonard Nemoy" and "Eh, that doesn't seem like it fits with things previously established" which all wouldn't be a problem if they didn't try to ride of the coattails of TOS references. The show is good enough to not need to. Like, most of the cringing at Laan seems to be at them forcing the Noonien Singh name on her for no reason. Pike in SNW is nothing like the original Pike, the opposite really (he was a military-type hardass, while nu-Pike is a jokey overly-friendly pushover) but he's extremely likeable regardless.
Still, for any of its "sins" like slight lore inconsistencies, its "transgressions" haven't been as bad as most Trek shows, even the good ones. Lets not pretend any Trek hasn't been full of inconsistencies and silly shit. I can't see how someone could hate SNW but like lolvoyager or Enterprise. A lot of TOS/TNG have been worse than any SNW so far. Though SNW also hasn't reached the high points that TOS/TNG did, yet.
IIRC, they even said they were going to cover the Earth-Romulan War if the series continued.
Back in the day, people sperged about and hated Berman and Bragga and claimed they ruined Trek, the way they do Kurtzman now. A lot like how George Lucas "ruined Star Wars" with the prequels, and now the prequels are "beloved classics" and "if George was still in charge, the sequels would have been so good".
Its just funny how times change.
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- Feb 24, 2016
Having Bashir be the villain after it was revealed he was genetically engineered just reeks of the writers going to Khan well years before Into Darkness. The episodes with Bashir and the other augmented humans was a nice change of pace since they acted more like spergs and it showed the Federation was somewhat prejudice to them because "muh Eugenics Wars."
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- Joined
- Sep 25, 2019
Yeah but I think that's thinking too small. If it really is a loose coalition of different people who all think the same way, then you don't need a cover story. You can't "dissolve" it because there's nothing there to officially dissolve. You can arrest/kill a bunch of them, but ultimately all you managed to do was remove one or two cells and the rest of the organization is still largely intact. Same thing with its assets; it doesn't have assets, not in the permanent sense, but it does have people it can call upon and the ability to broadly requisition whatever it needs to carry out a specific mission. Then at the end of the mission whatever was repurposed is left to go back into general use, like how Dr. Bashir is "recruited" and then unceremoniously dumped back into his duties at the end of the episode.
Section 31 is a lot more threatening as a shapeless cult-like organization than as a stereotypical glowie blackops org that the rest of Trek seems hellbent on portraying it as. That's the thing about glowies IRL; when they acquire a huge black budget, operate their own black fleet and even recruit and train their own paramilitary army of mercenaries they become bloated and corrupt and incompetent. They're great at fucking people over and pillaging the nations they knock over, but they're not exactly all that great at intel gathering anymore.
If knowledge is power, to be unknowable is to be unconquerable. Section 31 can't even be proven to exist, the Romulans certainly didn't see it coming, and Garak seemed to not know of them either. Honesty if I were the writers I would leave a little hint in there that whatever the organization is, its not even called Section 31 by its own members, the name instead being another embellishment that Sloan invented to string Bashir along knowing how much he loves his spy fantasies.
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- Oct 4, 2019
To me I found it cool that the degree of secrecy of the "secret organization" of the various interstellar superpowers was inversely related to how likely they are to have such a unit (Klingons excluded). Romulans are known for being deceptive, so the tal shiar are no secret. The obsidian order are far more secretive, because cardassians aren't quite as plotting and cunning as romulans are. And section 31, most secretive of all, because the federation are supposed to be the peaceful people who do everything through diplomacy with no undersided dealings
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- Joined
- Mar 7, 2016
Picard should've been an uwu nostalgia feels circlejerk.
Kurtzman should've been locked in a room with The End of the Beginning playing on repeat until he understood what Picard should've been. It's supposed to be a deep character study and could even allow Patrick Stewart to reflect on what is his most famous role during the obvious twilight of his career.
Indeed, if Stewart was less of an asshat he'd have also used it to reflect upon his own career as well as Picard's and how this is where people know him from. It should've been about legacy, about reflection of both the actor and the character. Hell, he could've been as bitter as Sir Arthur Conan Doyle if he fucking liked and it'd have been more in keeping and character than what we got.
Instead we have a octogenarian doing battle against the Borg, the romulans and incestual couples and it feels very fucking dumb. Its definitely by a guy who's written or done more in movie-work than TV work and its taken him failing upwards to stop pissing about with Trek.
There's no "deep character study" which is what Stewart would've enjoyed as an actor and he very clearly fucking phones it in because "muh brand recognition".
Like nearly every episode should've been him increasingly finding himself going about like a functioning robot. Always off to places he'd helped out decades ago, or asked to yet another function so someone can boast about having "Admiral Picard" at their do and he just turns up because he has little better else to do. Or stuck roaming the vineyard and wondering is this all thats left for my life now? Where are the challenges? The things which once gave my life purpose and meaning?
You could've made something miserable and yet still wonderful as so many people who go into service often struggle with civillian life for decades afterwards and there's no way giga gay luxury space communism is going to fully change that bit of the human condition.
Oh its definitely the writers and directors being snitty because Spiner slowly demanded more and more to actually be allowed to act. and so they just went "Here, fuckit. Now he can be SHERLOCK HOLMES!" By the time he returned for Enterprise he'd done some other shows and a bit of theatre work which by all told he was very good in.
Same as apparently he wanted to be killed off in Insurrection but got a note back saying "Sorry Brent, Kill you Next time!" attached to his script instead.