Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[ZMOT]

Like take Guardians of the Galaxy vol 2. It really bugged me at the end Yondu's whole "he wasn't your daddy" line to Starlord because there nothing to justify or set that up in either of the two films previously but they throw in a whole montage that's about 10 seconds long right at that moment to try and retcon this whole idea in. But hey! We have the heartwarming music playing so you know this is where you're supposed to be having all the feelz.

funny enough there were plenty of bits implied and shown (and hardly told, which is something people like to complain a lot, me included) that yondu had a soft spot for quill - after all he picked him as as a kid and never delivered him (as stated in the first movie), where do you think quill was hanging out the whole time? so by time spent yondu was absolutely more of a "daddy" than anyone else.
while I'm kinda "eh" on vol2 in general that part worked fine, especially since yondu was always depicted as a hard ass.

First I've heard that. The story has always been that Yar was killed off because Denise Crosby felt her character want getting developed enough.

this. as far as the official story goes she asked for it to be written out (to regret it, hence her taking guest roles and doing documentaries and stuff).

 

[Phalanges Mycologist]

What's the general consensus on Icheb being killed off in Picard? I know the actor had some issues that made him unpopular with the right sort of people; but the extremely violent and not-very-Star-Trek way in which he died seems mean-spirited.

Shit and still in Kurtzman's spiteful era before someone at CBS realised if they kicked him up a notch he can just "oversee" projects and stop shitting them up. Every show bar Picard at least saw some mild improvement after he began to just exec produce everything instead of being front line fucking it up and yelling at Showrunners until they quit.

It was intentionally written that was a fuck you to Mannu, he's not liked for not towing the party line - I saw a decent interview with him on the subject, he was sad Icheb was killed off and would have even come back to the role just to have been killed off, but he was genuinely sorry there was no story for him.

I believe Enterprise was planned for seven seasons, well at least a fifth season was planned. It would be interesting to imagine what Star Trek would look like if Enterprise had not been cancelled and the franchise slipped into obscurity for the mid 2000s. If Enterprise had run to 2007-2008, then I doubt the Abrams films would have been made as soon, and other shows with Berman at the head might have continued.

The season after the finali was going to cover the Federation - Romulan war and the NX-01 was going to have been upgraded and updated to look more like a transitory design between the NX class and the connstitution class by moving the saucer upwards of the engineering hull new necels and a few other things, there was going to be a big shocker for the Vulcans being related to the Rommulans and some early cloking tech and more of that holoship that could disguise it's self as anything else it could scan.

Apparently some scripts are available or atleast detailed outlines for some key episodes but I've never seen them.

 

[Starscreams Cape]

this. as far as the official story goes she asked for it to be written out (to regret it, hence her taking guest roles and doing documentaries and stuff).

I believe she said that most of the time she could have been replaced with a set of mannequin legs, as in some episodes that's basically all the viewers saw of her - standing in the raised security area directly behind the captain's chair.

 

[feral cat #6385]

I believe she said that most of the time she could have been replaced with a set of mannequin legs, as in some episodes that's basically all the viewers saw of her - standing in the raised security area directly behind the captain's chair.

She should have just STFU and been mannequin legs for seven years.

 

[IrishGuy088]

It was intentionally written that was a fuck you to Mannu, he's not liked for not towing the party line - I saw a decent interview with him on the subject, he was sad Icheb was killed off and would have even come back to the role just to have been killed off, but he was genuinely sorry there was no story for him.

What a waste of a character that likely accidentally ended up not being terrible.

 

[Tasty Tatty]

funny enough there were plenty of bits implied and shown (and hardly told, which is something people like to complain a lot, me included) that yondu had a soft spot for quill - after all he picked him as as a kid and never delivered him (as stated in the first movie), where do you think quill was hanging out the whole time? so by time spent yondu was absolutely more of a "daddy" than anyone else.
while I'm kinda "eh" on vol2 in general that part worked fine, especially since yondu was always depicted as a hard ass.

It's just too implied. Not saying they should have a scene with Quill saying outloud "yondu was like a father to me", but besides a couple of seconds showing him teaching something to a young Peter, their relationship could have been just convenience or mere frienship.

She should have just STFU and been mannequin legs for seven years.

She didn't have to. Geordi also had zero development during season 1 besides being a double token. They later developed him better.

 

[feral cat #6385]

It's just too implied. Not saying they should have a scene with Quill saying outloud "yondu was like a father to me", but besides a couple of seconds showing him teaching something to a young Peter, their relationship could have been just convenience or mere frienship.


She didn't have to. Geordi also had zero development during season 1 besides being a double token. They later developed him better.

Geordi was the OG incel. He and Chief O'Brien really got a raw deal.

 

[Ishtar]

One thing I have noticed about Odo is apparently-the founders have a really really strong racial memory. Like, just seeing the Omarion nebula on a chart produces an irrepressible urge to just jump ship and leave, this is without any context or indication that his people are in fact located there.

Also when Garak tortures him-Odo eventually breaks and admits he wants to go back to his people.

You can read it as mega simping for Kira, but the fact it’s only this affection that prevents his innate racial loyalty from asserting itself says something about how overwhelming the founder’s racial impulses are.

Then being an inclination towards order at all costs, and a need to return to their people. (Well L’as doesn’t seem to care as much, but eh he finds Odo and that’s good enough-and expresses a desire to find the other changelings(the founders are still poisoned at this time so it makes some sense).

Like, is there another species in Star Trek or sci fi that has this sort of inbuilt racial impulse that either is who they are or requires extraordinary will or other desires(e.g. Kira) to not overcome all else? Most of the time the message seems to be “you aren’t bound by racial instinct or behavior”-and in the founder’s case this actually requires extreme will to not be true(and really love). Odo’s love for Kira must be incredible.

TLDR: The founders take the whole “the race is the blood” to its conclusion, who they are and what they want, and what they do seems to come from an inborn biological impulse that overrides any cultural or social impositions.

 

[AnOminous]

Like, is there another species in Star Trek or sci fi that has this sort of inbuilt racial impulse that either is who they are or requires extraordinary will or other desires(e.g. Kira) to not overcome all else? Most of the time the message seems to be “you aren’t bound by racial instinct or behavior”-and in the founder’s case this actually requires extreme will to not be true(and really love). Odo’s love for Kira must be incredible.

Pon farr is pretty much that, and not even Spock could resist it.

 

[Exceptionally Exceptional]

One thing I have noticed about Odo is apparently-the founders have a really really strong racial memory. Like, just seeing the Omarion nebula on a chart produces an irreducible urge to just jump ship and leave, this is without any context or indication that his people are in fact located there.

Also when Garak tortures him-Odo eventually breaks and admits he wants to go back to his people.

You can read it as mega simping for Kira, but the fact it’s only this affection that prevents his innate racial loyalty from asserting itself says something about how overwhelming the founder’s racial impulses are.

Then being an inclination towards order at all costs, and a need to return to their people. (Well L’as doesn’t seem to care as much, but eh he finds Odo and that’s good enough-and expresses a desire to find the other changelings(the founders are still poisoned at this time so it makes some sense).

Like, is there another species in Star Trek or sci fi that has this sort of inbuilt racial impulse that either is who they are or requires extraordinary will or other desires(e.g. Kira) to not overcome all else? Most of the time the message seems to be “you aren’t bound by racial instinct or behavior”-and in the founder’s case this actually requires extreme will to not be true(and really love). Odo’s love for Kira must be incredible.

TLDR: The founders take the whole “the race is the blood” to its conclusion, who they are and what they want, and what they do seems to come from an inborn biological impulse that overrides any cultural or social impositions.

Honestly the way the Founders were written was the reason I still say Section 31 was morally in the right to exterminate them. They genetically tampered with 2 species to the point where they can no longer function without the Founders. Their representative, the female changeling, was an unabashed sociopath who seemed to actually delight in the deaths and suffering of others. Except for Odo they all seem to be supremely arrogant, supremacist pricks that make the fucking Romulans look like humble and inclusive people. They've attempted at least 1 genocide and actually pulled off who knows how many more in their 2,000 years of ruling the Dominion. They claim there is pretty much no dissent in the Great Link, which Odo never contradicts, meaning that the majority of the changelings were fine with conquest, genocide, and slavery.

Seriously, fuck that entire species except for Odo.

 

[Ishtar]

Honestly the way the Founders were written was the reason I still say Section 31 was morally in the right to exterminate them. They genetically tampered with 2 species to the point where they can no longer function without the Founders. Their representative, the female changeling, was an unabashed sociopath who seemed to actually delight in the deaths and suffering of others. Except for Odo they all seem to be supremely arrogant, supremacist pricks that make the fucking Romulans look like humble and inclusive people. They've attempted at least 1 genocide and actually pulled off who knows how many more in their 2,000 years of ruling the Dominion. They claim there is pretty much no dissent in the Great Link, which Odo never contradicts, meaning that the majority of the changelings were fine with conquest, genocide, and slavery.

Seriously, fuck that entire species except for Odo.

Yeah, the female shapeshifter and Weyoun directly and casually discuss slaughtering billions-including genociding earth.

The fact they are duplicitous AF as well is reason enough to never trust them. Even Odo, would join the Founder’s, war or no war-its only his love for Kira that keeps him on the Federation’s side.

Like, think about that, yes he’ll say he condemns and rejects the dominion and it’s actions, but all of that is ultimately a lie to hide the fact that he would join them if there wasn’t someone holding him from it.

If Kira had died at any point before the war’s end, I have no doubt Odo would have joined the Founder’s near immediately.

 

[Exceptionally Exceptional]

Yeah, the female shapeshifter and Weyoun directly and casually discuss slaughtering billions-including genociding earth.

The fact they are duplicitous AF as well is reason enough to never trust them. Even Odo, would join the Founder’s, war or no war-its only his love for Kira that keeps him on the Federation’s side.

Like, think about that, yes he’ll say he condemns and rejects the dominion and it’s actions, but all of that is ultimately a lie to hide the fact that he would join them if there wasn’t someone holding him from it.

If Kira had died at any point before the war’s end, I have no doubt Odo would have joined the Founder’s near immediately.

Unless, of course, the Founders were directly responsible. Like if they killed her to take away the only thing keeping Odo away from them and he found out?
He might have gladly carried the morphogenic virus and genocided his own people.

 

[Flexo]

It's just too implied. Not saying they should have a scene with Quill saying outloud "yondu was like a father to me", but besides a couple of seconds showing him teaching something to a young Peter, their relationship could have been just convenience or mere frienship.

Pretty much this, it's very much a case where there are lines that you can go back and reinterpret as clues about their relationship, but had the script or story been changed, those lines would have worked just as well applying to something different. IIRC, about the best line for the whole deal was from one of the space pirates to Yondu in the first film about him always being soft on Peter or something to that effect.

I think a good comparison would be Pixar's Onward. It's still a bit weaker in the set up than I'd like (Chris Pratt's character is very thinly sketched out), but it's also a big help that a lot of the "twist" in the film is stuff that we saw on screen throughout the movie which the ending then stitches together in one of the most heartwrenching moments on film. You wouldn't even have to do stuff in the first GotG movie to pay off what I'm talking about in the second. A lot of this could have been done in the second with Peter bringing up more of his memories or casually mentioning his life growing up. But when he does, it's more about his time on earth and what he imagined his Dad was.

Wait a minute... both movies have Chris Pratt... maybe it's all his fault...

 

[IDanceonTrannyGraves]

What's the general consensus on Icheb being killed off in Picard? I know the actor had some issues that made him unpopular with the right sort of people; but the extremely violent and not-very-Star-Trek way in which he died seems mean-spirited.

That was probably the point.

 

[Newman's Lovechild]

Odo’s love for Kira must be incredible.

Odo and Kira always seemed vaguely like bestiality to me*. I'm not sure which of them had the more degenerate urges, the pink monkey or the orange amoeba.

* Or at the very least, a ham-fisted gay metaphor.

 

[Saturnalia-1918]

Section 31 is in all honesty an absolutely terrible idea that DS9 against the odds managed to do right. I say against the odds because even for a show as good as DS9 Section 31 lends itself to all kinds of grimdark bullshit that DS9 thankfully skated around by implying that Section 31 may or may not have had official backing.

Its actually pretty skilled how the few DS9 episodes that use them justify the different characters deciding to help them and how they feel they're required to do so. Even a Starfleet admiral admits he doesn't know if they really exist, and ultimately decides to help them based on his own prerogative and his own beliefs. There's no sudden "I got my orders from on high, sorry" or "You can't handle the truth!". Ross actually has a pretty good speech at the end of Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges that mirrors Sisko's feelings in In The Pale Moonlight which really makes Section 31 work for me.

Section 31 in DS9 is really not an established arm of the Federation that was somehow kept secret all these years, its more like a loose conspiracy of like-minded hardasses and fanatics that take advantage of vulnerable or sympathetic Federation officials and officers to get shit done since using any official channels would get them ripped apart. I compared them to glowies earlier in the thread, but DS9 Section 31 is a lot more nuanced than your typical glowie blackops organization in fiction.

Though as Odo pointed out that it is convenient that when the Federation is presented with a solution that is officially considered too abhorrent for the Federation (like the Founder genocide) to enact then Section 31 conveniently does the terrible deed without the Federation officially being involved and can then reap the rewards while still maintaining their "evolved and enlightened humanity" nonsense.

 

[Ishtar]

Odo and Kira always seemed vaguely like bestiality to me*. I'm not sure which of them had the more degenerate urges, the pink monkey or the orange amoeba.

* Or at the very least, a ham-fisted gay metaphor.

Eh...the gay metaphor was with Dax and that other trill, or maybe Odo and La'as. The interspecies' romance is Dax and Worf (or really interracial, or big city girl and sheltered religious guy from the boonies, you get the picture).

Odo and Kira though has very medieval romanticist undertones-the noble Odo trying to win the heart of the distant and (involved) Kira, holding out hope his love will finally respond, in spite of her other relationships, in spite of the call of his home. It doesn't track exactly with knightly romances-but it resembles it the most(especially in how sexless it is).

As well as being doomed and all-Odo must return to his people, and thus winning Kira is never going to be permanent.

 

[Exceptionally Exceptional]

Am I the only one who kind of detested the Bajorans? Seriously, they're a bunch of religious fanatics who, despite Picard saying "They were architects and artists, builders and philosophers, when Humans were not yet standing erect." were surpassed by civilizations far younger than themselves. Somehow their entire civilization predates homo erectus, and yet humanity surpassed all of their technological achievements in less than a century after bashing ourselves nearly back to the stone age in World War 3.

And their religion. Holy shit their religion was fucking stupid. Their gods obviously gave 0 actual shits about them and yet the average Bajoran would probably slit a baby's throat if the Prophets told them to. And holy shit were those gods dumb as all hell. Constantly claimed they didn't understand shit like linear time and corporeal shit but they actively had to send one of their own into the corporeal, linear world to get knocked up and shit out Sisko. It's like sending someone to Japan for a decade and then learning absolutely nothing about them, not even that they speak a different language.

Everything about the Bajorans annoyed me to no end and frankly I think they'd be far more trouble than they're worth as a Federation citizen state. Kinda agree with Dukat on this one, he should have wiped out every last one of the fucks.

 

[BIG BILL HELL'S]

Kira: "We were a peaceful people!"

Also Kira: kills 30 spoon heads in one night by slitting their throats "for the lulz"

 

[Exceptionally Exceptional]

Kira: "We were a peaceful people!"

Also Kira: kills 30 spoon heads in one night by slitting their throats "for the lulz"

Vedek Porta: shoves a guy to his death based on his family caste and his refusal to step down from the order

Almost everything we see of the Bajoran religion is intensely negative outside of the vague ass "Our religion kept us together during the occupation!" spiel. Even that seems flimsy as fuck because a bigger uniting factor should have been that brutal fascist aliens have invaded your world. Literal Us vs Them, common enemy shit.

But no, the fuckers were apparently so goddamn stupid only a weird and inconsistent religion built around worshipping shit the Bajorans don't understand could unite them, not culture, not race, not the fact that they were being butchered and worked to death by merciless invaders.

I mean, this is a religion that can convince it's people to become isolationist religious fanatics, terrorists, and even cause them to kill each other over stupid shit like family line and somehow it never gets called out for what it is: A fucking cult.