Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

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Burt Ryan said:
Say what you want about the ending, but I still think Dukat is the best Star Trek named villain. People saying Khan and the Borg Queen are delusional.

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XYZpdq Jr. said:
villain?

my favorite part of the DS9 ending is when Wynn is like NOW! EVIL SPIRITS! LET'S DO STUFF! and it turns out not even Space Satans like being around her
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Winn is definitely the best Trek "villain", in the sense that I hated her from the first moment she came on screen, and they didn't have to totally assassinate her character to make me do so.

Dukat is of course the more interesting character by far though, at least he was until said character assassination.
 
I would argue that being more interesting, as opposed to more uniformly loathsome, is what makes a villain the best villain. Dukat was complicated and incredibly charismatic. Winn was just a bad, conniving person. (And I still hated Keiko more than I hated Winn.)
 
obsdj said:
I would argue that being more interesting, as opposed to more uniformly loathsome, is what makes a villain the best villain. Dukat was complicated and incredibly charismatic. Winn was just a bad, conniving person. (And I still hated Keiko more than I hated Winn.)
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One might argue back that if you end up liking a villain, are they even really a villain?

Garek for example, is implied to have done many, many terrible things in his past, perhaps even more than Dukat himself, and the only reason he really stopped is because Dukat fucked him over. Would you call Garek a villain?
(And don't say "no" , because he works with the crew more often than not. Dukat works with the crew quite a bit in early seasons.)

Dukat was absolutely an infinitely better character than Winn, but the times where he was at his most villainous, were also when he was at his worst.
 
UnKillShredDur said:
Would you call Garek a villain?
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Of course Garak was a villain. He, too, was complicated and charismatic (as well as mysterious). One might be tempted to say he redeemed himself by the end, but of course he was a villain.

UnKillShredDur said:
One might argue back that if you end up liking a villain, are they even really a villain?
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I don't find that particularly persuasive. Most people liked the Hannibal Lecter character when Silence of the Lambs came out, but no one (except maybe literal sociopaths) would argue that he's not a villain just because we like him.
 
Moriarty was pretty good. Shame they didn't use him better in Picard.
 
UnKillShredDur said:
Dukat works with the crew quite a bit in early seasons.
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The episode where I fell in love with Dukat is the one where the "Attention Bajoran Workers" meme comes from, and he just teleports into DS9 command room and starts laughing at everyone while the automated blaster turret ignores him.
 
Burt Ryan said:
The episode where I fell in love with Dukat is the one where the "Attention Bajoran Workers" meme comes from, and he just teleports into DS9 command room and starts laughing at everyone while the automated blaster turret ignores him.
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Just another reminder. #DukatDidNothingWrong
 
Calandrino said:
Kai Winn was a heroine and the prophets are dicks
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I definitely agree the Prophets are jerks, but the Bajorans are too obsessed with their opinions, especially after the discovery of the wormhole. During the events of DS9, there should be a queue of Bajoran ships on pilgrimage to meet the Prophets directly because they now know where they live. Only to find the Prophets are total weirdos and don't understand why the scrunchy noses keep visiting them. Maybe there should be a bunch of Bajoran Atheists who are totally disappointed after meeting the Prophets.
 
Drag-on Knight 91873 said:
The Cardassians are the best villain race in all of Star Trek. Fantastic look to them, great at courtier talk, which is how they're different than the Romulans, and they get to express a wide range of emotions which is how you get episodes like Duet.
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I always viewed Romulans as the wigger cousins of Vulcans.
UnKillShredDur said:
Winn is definitely the best Trek "villain", in the sense that I hated her from the first moment she came on screen, and they didn't have to totally assassinate her character to make me do so.
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My favorite will always be Khan. Both in his episode and the movie. Shatner and Montalban were both ham actors who chewed the scenery like Great Whites and seeing them go at each other was amazing.
40 Year Old Boomer said:
For me, it's Doc Cochran.
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"You're a lunger."
 
NSA said:
Having his fleet snapped out of existence by gods and having his daughter killed by his closest friend was a real Joker moment.
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Thanks, now I want to see Mark Alaimo, in full Cardassian makeup, with clown makeup on top of that, dancing to slow violin music.

AnOminous said:
My favorite will always be Khan. Both in his episode and the movie. Shatner and Montalban were both ham actors who chewed the scenery like Great Whites and seeing them go at each other was amazing.
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Khan didn't do anything wrong either. Especially in Wrath of Khan.
 
Quintex96 said:
getting prophet snapped out of existence.
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I liked how in Star Trek Online they have a mission that involves those Jem'hadar ships reappearing through the wormhole after many years, and everyone is like:"Ok what the actual fuck?"

The Prophets are master trolls.
 
"TNG Best of Both Worlds Part 1 - Cliffhanger"

Part 1 aired on June 18 in 1990, and Part 2 aired months later on September 24. In other words, all of summer without the conclusion.
 
NSA said:
Having his fleet snapped out of existence by gods and having his daughter killed by his closest friend was a real Joker moment.
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UnKillShredDur said:
Thanks, now I want to see Mark Alaimo, in full Cardassian makeup, with clown makeup on top of that, dancing to slow violin music.
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Or for AI to generate the "one bad day" speech in the tone Dukat used when he was stranded with Sisko.

 
GreenJacket said:
Just finished DS9, so here's what I thought of the ending.

That Pah-Wraith plotline was fucking stupid. I guess that prophets couldn't get someone to just go burn the Book of the Kosst Amojan because it's too linear or some bullshit. The Prophets themselves were completely retconned in "Accession" from not caring at all about Bajor to being deeply invested in manipulating their society like the Bene Gesserit from Dune.
However, the Dominion War had a somewhat satisfying conclusion although I don't know how much Odo would change the mind of the entire Great Link. Having such a dangerous threat right across the wormhole seems to be a rather precarious situation.

As a whole:
I liked the idea of the Dominion as an enemy and I find their behaviour topical even today. What made this show shine were the various ideologies and philosophies of all the races of the Alpha and Gamma Qaudrants being forced together in a confined space to discuss, bicker, hash out agreements, and come-up with solutions. The scene where Quark gives Garak root beer is still one of my favorites. Although I agree with RLM that there was probably a bit too much action with giant swarms of ships flying at each other, the nitty-gritty events of the war like Sisko's plot to get the Romulans in or the Section 31 virus brought up interesting moral dilemmas. Ultimately, as I said in the spoiler, I think the show suffered from half-thought out plotlines that had developments or conclusions that didn't make sense, besides the Dominion War; I especially hate what they did with Dukat's character. Nevertheless a lot of the stand-alone episodes were fantastic. I even liked "Move Along Home."
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Dukat should have died at the end of "Waltz."
 
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