Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

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There's no realistic way I can see for there to be "psionic" powers and "energy beings of pure thought" -- like the Organians or the Q -- within physics (not even quantum), leaving such to "magic" which defies physics. And if physics in Star Trek setting can allow such, they're indistinguishable from straight up "magic" to "ordinary beings" in "normal" spacetime then. Like a Q making something appear with a flash using some unknown physics would look a lot like physics-defying "magic" which conjures something up.

Also, unlike "sufficiently advanced technology that's indistinguishable from magic", "psionic" powers and "energy beings of pure thought" do not rely on technologies to be.
90% of Star Trek science is absolute bullshit. The Q, Prophets, etc being slightly more bullshit doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things.

Funnily enough, Robert E. Howard pipped Clarke to the post by some 30 years in The Tower of the Elephant where Conan, confronted with a complex cluckpunk device, dismisses it as magic, as he did with everything he didn't understand.
 
90% of Star Trek science is absolute bullshit.magic, as he did with everything he didn't understand.
Star Trek setting runs on "comic book science" -- it's rather "soft SF". Like needing dilithium crystals to use matter-antimatter reactions. There's also all those made-up particles, and of course all the technobabble (especially in VOY) could easily qualify.
 
Star Trek setting runs on "comic book science" -- it's rather "soft SF". Like needing dilithium crystals to use matter-antimatter reactions. There's also all those made-up particles, and of course all the technobabble (especially in VOY) could easily qualify.
The technobabble in particular places Star Trek firmly in the realm of science fantasy. And the second most fantastical thing in the setting is the conceit that human nature has changed.
 
And the second most fantastical thing in the setting is the conceit that human nature has changed.
Given how the franchise utterly jettisoning this concept after years of successfully working with it (by means of mostly non-pozzed deconstruction, examination, and even the occasional reconstruction, along with some good writing here and there) coincides 1000% with the franchise turning to irredeemable shit starting with the last few movies and culminating with the start of the Discovery/Picard era, I wonder if Roddenberry had some kind of mystic vision in the 80s while snorting talcum laced Columbian off a sobbing and naked Wil Wheaton's buttocks, and intentionally steered season 1 of TNG as hard into the "humanity is now super duper perfect and enlightened and special and flawless" schtick as possible just to make sure he could guarantee a decent decade or so of following writers and showrunners having to keep atleast somewhat tethered to the general idea while working on the franchise before it inevitably wound up being dropped and causing the franchise to devolve into a dime a dozen interchangeable "edgy" sci fi properties.
 
Given how the franchise utterly jettisoning this concept after years of successfully working with it (by means of mostly non-pozzed deconstruction, examination, and even the occasional reconstruction, along with some good writing here and there) coincides 1000% with the franchise turning to irredeemable shit starting with the last few movies and culminating with the start of the Discovery/Picard era, I wonder if Roddenberry had some kind of mystic vision in the 80s while snorting talcum laced Columbian off a sobbing and naked Wil Wheaton's buttocks, and intentionally steered season 1 of TNG as hard into the "humanity is now super duper perfect and enlightened and special and flawless" schtick as possible just to make sure he could guarantee a decent decade or so of following writers and showrunners having to keep atleast somewhat tethered to the general idea while working on the franchise before it inevitably wound up being dropped and causing the franchise to devolve into a dime a dozen interchangeable "edgy" sci fi properties.
And that's the fundamental change between TOS and TNG. In TOS< Kirk routinely acknowledges that humanity is still a savage race...but we're trying. 80 years later Picard routinely lectures savage aliens about how we used to be just like them. As if humanity will change its stripes in less than a century. It's clearly a conceit Roddenberry had that nobody could talk him out of when TNG was being built and nobody at the network actually cared enough about to tell him "no" and few fans picked up on in those early years of TNG's run.
 
Here's a nitpic for Voyager I am noticing while I'm watching. I assume this is a hollywood producer being niggardly with the budget, but they very rarely have the non-cast voyager crew actually have a speaking role. To the point it's noticeable when they have to shuffle the bridge crew around. Here's some examples
Tuvok incapacitated and they a tactical situation, have Harry on Tactical, but the plot calls for sensor shenanigans, so Tom is at ops? Helm is a non-speaking extra.
Another episode, Tom is on the delta flyer and we need a helmsmen, so now its B'Elanna at the helm?

Maybe Janeway cutout everyone's tongue, except for the main crew.
I think it's a union thing. If I'm not mistaken, they can't give a line of dialogue to some random extra.
Wasn't there an episode where Neelix was on the bridge too?
 
I think it's a union thing. If I'm not mistaken, they can't give a line of dialogue to some random extra.
Wasn't there an episode where Neelix was on the bridge too?
Probably right, there is union rules and I think it automatically forces a higher pay for any line spoken. I think it's the nature of a show that takes place on a ship that makes it more noticeable more so than your regular TV show. Voyager was good about having a lot of the same background extras, but it feels strange when they don't interact at all with the main cast when they've all been stranded together for years.

Neelix is often on the bridge, but I don't recall him ever taking a station (except as Tuvix RIP). Last episode I watched, Harry was off the ship so they had torres run ops.
 
Leonard Nimoy loved telling the story about the lady in Star Trek IV, who told Chechov and Uhura the vessels were in Alameda, i.e. she was just some rando who gave an interesting response he wanted in the movie so he had to get her into sag.
 
As for the "on a certain level, magic and technology are indistinguishable" bit. (Which is my second thought) We all know what a cel phone is, but if you brought one back to the middle ages and used it to play a movie for a peasant, they would not be able to wrap their brain around what they were looking at. They would not even understand the concept of a movie, let alone a recording. They might think you were casting a magic spell to show some far off other plane of reality.
Supernatural literally did it (almost).
 
And that's the fundamental change between TOS and TNG. In TOS< Kirk routinely acknowledges that humanity is still a savage race...but we're trying. 80 years later Picard routinely lectures savage aliens about how we used to be just like them. As if humanity will change its stripes in less than a century. It's clearly a conceit Roddenberry had that nobody could talk him out of when TNG was being built and nobody at the network actually cared enough about to tell him "no" and few fans picked up on in those early years of TNG's run.
I have sperged bout this before but I legit feel that this retroactively winds up fitting into the franchise's meta well.

Early TNG is when the federation is at peak peace and indolence with its main enemy the klingon empire now a loyal ally, the romulans keeping to themselves in their corner of space, and technology having progressed to make sure everyone everywhere lives in material comfort and interconnectivity while also being advanced enough to ward off the vast majority of minor threats, and Picard and co being unfathomably arrogant assholes swanning about and lecturing icky barbarians on how they need to become enlightened like humanity perfectly sets up the federation suddenly getting buck broken by shit like the borg and a resurgent romulan empire and eventually the dominion, and having to rapidly bring back some of that old savagery to survive a galaxy that was becoming increasingly hostile to 80s new age hippy shit

Sure this was entirely by accident, but it still works out for the better by the end even if season 1 is effectively unwatchable without narcotics and liberal use of a fast forward button.
 
I have sperged bout this before but I legit feel that this retroactively winds up fitting into the franchise's meta well.

Early TNG is when the federation is at peak peace and indolence with its main enemy the klingon empire now a loyal ally, the romulans keeping to themselves in their corner of space, and technology having progressed to make sure everyone everywhere lives in material comfort and interconnectivity while also being advanced enough to ward off the vast majority of minor threats, and Picard and co being unfathomably arrogant assholes swanning about and lecturing icky barbarians on how they need to become enlightened like humanity perfectly sets up the federation suddenly getting buck broken by shit like the borg and a resurgent romulan empire and eventually the dominion, and having to rapidly bring back some of that old savagery to survive a galaxy that was becoming increasingly hostile to 80s new age hippy shit

Sure this was entirely by accident, but it still works out for the better by the end even if season 1 is effectively unwatchable without narcotics and liberal use of a fast forward button.
Wolf 359 was also an admission that Federation Fleet building doctrine was completely fucked from the ground up. Before then, the Federation built protagonist ships, which works great when the ship is the Protagonist. When they aren't, the Feds would lose them with alarming frequency due to how spread out and isolated those ships are. Losing 5 Connies during detente time borders on the unacceptable, not to mention all the Oberths* that surely ate it when anyone looked at them funny. A hundred years later, the Galaxy-class is built, which is the ship Federation graft built. Objectively, it's a Connie tasked with much more ambitious goals and conservatively requires 2 to 3 times the resources to make. It then has an attrition rate of about half the Connie rate in peacetime. Thus, the Galaxy could never fulfill its stated goal of long-range exploration ship without starbase support and became a mobile embassy. A mobile embassy that would often get hit hard every time they got into an actual fight. "Shields down to 18%!"

Then Wolf 359 happens and they have to build ships with attrition rate in mind, hence the Defiant, Saber, Nova, Steamrunner "Escort" class. Why did they settle for the Defiant? It has a bunch of forward-facing weapons and ideally a cloaking device, like a Bird of Prey. The anti-Borg isn't meant to solo Borg ships, they're meant as a mass wave of decent-ish ships to maybe take out a Cube. Essentially, the Federation had to tacitly admit that Klingon naval doctrine was better at actually fighting wars and only got the goal after the Dominion War ended.

*Saavik getting assigned to the Grissom just shows how careless Starfleet is with their junior officers. Spock was dead at the time, but you'd think someone that's Saluatorian/Valdictorian-tier would be on a ship less prone to exploding.
 
That always bugged me. No one, literally no one was after close encounters with the Borg thinking about using shotguns or machine guns against drones in the close quarter fights. "haha let us use phasers, the borg will adapt, but it's so advanced!!11"

Personally I'd use flamethrowers.
I read a DS9 book when I was a kid, where the station was boarded by aliens that had armour that deflected all beam weapons, eventually it dawns on them that projectile weapons will work.

Also there was a really good episode of DS9 that had a sniper rilfe coupled to a transporter, that was being used by a crazy vulcan to murder humans that he saw laughing.
 
Federation graft built
... also meant underpowered shit like the Mirandas, Constellations and Ambassadors remain in operation for much longer than they were built for. Listen, Starfleet Engineering, you can upgrade your USS Miranda (NCC-lolwut) that was built in the late 2260s only so much and expect it to still execute front line assignments during the Dominion War. That's like constantly upgrading torpedo boats that were laid down in the 1880s to be used as frontline destroyers a century later. It's hilarious. It's stupid. It's dangerous and nobody has ever done it.

Personally I think there's a massive group of lobbyists from the manufacturing sector that constantly manage to con the Federation Council into keeping obviously obsolete designs around until the heat death of the universe. While that might be realistic, there also would opposition to this kind of crap. Whoever pushed for the Intrepid and Prometheus in Starfleet deserves a promotion and virtually unlimited access to manufacturing time.
 
... also meant underpowered shit like the Mirandas, Constellations and Ambassadors remain in operation for much longer than they were built for. Listen, Starfleet Engineering, you can upgrade your USS Miranda (NCC-lolwut) that was built in the late 2260s only so much and expect it to still execute front line assignments during the Dominion War. That's like constantly upgrading torpedo boats that were laid down in the 1880s to be used as frontline destroyers a century later. It's hilarious. It's stupid. It's dangerous and nobody has ever done it.

Personally I think there's a massive group of lobbyists from the manufacturing sector that constantly manage to con the Federation Council into keeping obviously obsolete designs around until the heat death of the universe. While that might be realistic, there also would opposition to this kind of crap. Whoever pushed for the Intrepid and Prometheus in Starfleet deserves a promotion and virtually unlimited access to manufacturing time.
Shelby is the one that kicked off Fleet modernization efforts in BoBW, so she was probably the one that decided on the Defiant design after using the Nova-class blueprint as a coaster. So, she's probably the one that picked the Intrepid and Akira designs too. Also, the Nova-class itself is actually not that bad for what it is. Yes, it is an Oberth replacement and thus, is undergunned even by the standards of 2370s Starfleet, but considering Ransom was able to keep that ship around for 5 years without Starbase support, that proves it's actually a solid design for most purposes.
 
@William Murderface
Starfleet should have made Picard go to each and every dead crewman's house and tell his family "yeah, I could have stopped this years ago and saved the Federation all this pain and effort, but I needed to moralize more."
Picard almost lost his shit that Worf's human brother saved a small group of
Boraalans and thus preventing their species from going extinct. As he wanted their species extinct.
If anything, Picard would get off on visiting those families of the dead crewman. As that mean he can do his holier-than-thou moralizing spiel at each and every one of them.

@Reinhardo-sama You forgot the Federation had been actively sabotaged by the Bluegills. Whom hadn't been discovered until their appearance in the TNG: Conspiracy. Given the refitted Excelsior cruiser USS Lakota is almost virtually the same appearance as the USS Enterprise B. Leads to the suggestion that the Bluegills were in the Federation for a good part of a century. Even then R&D did lead to the lineage of ships classes culminating in the Galaxy and Nebula class ships. The lineage biggest failing was each one didn't have much of a large production run prior to the Nebula class cruiser. Compared to either the Miranda and Excelsior class both of whom were in production for a long time and made in very large numbers.
 
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Stupid question but the Red Letter Media guys are massive fanboys of Voyager and hate DS9 like its responsible for the holocaust, could anyone explain why someone might prefer voyager over DS9?
Tom Paris is the most competent member of the entire Voyager crew. He did everything, from piloting, to engineering, to medical. And a bunch of other things I'm probably forgetting. He literally designed the Delta Flyer by himself on a whim.
And don't forget his love of 20th century american history!, He's like a Mary-Sue for the sort of nerds that loved Star Trek. the only reason its not called out as much is because the show isn't centered around his character. but he's the ultra amazing white dude who can and does do everything on a ship full of incompetent DEI hires. Doesn't he love repairing "classic cars" and shooting pool and smoking american cigs too. Its like a boomer version of Sonichu at a certain point.
the Feds kept losing in the Dominion War is because all their competent hawk Captains and Admirals were arrested years before SHTF.
if star trek was written by fans they would have freed these admirals and they'd have played a role in turning the tide of the war, same way on the eastern front anyone that pissed stalin off suddenly became useful and are the sole reason they don't speak german in moscow today.
 
So, she's probably the one that picked the Intrepid and Akira designs too. Also, the Nova-class itself is actually not that bad for what it is. Yes, it is an Oberth replacement and thus, is undergunned even by the standards of 2370s Starfleet, but considering Ransom was able to keep that ship around for 5 years without Starbase support, that proves it's actually a solid design for most purposes.
Maybe I am too military minded for Starfleet, but if I had a say in there, I'd very likely scrap most ship classes, even things like the Nova or Steamrunner. Instead I'd settle on a very tiny amount of classes that are optimised for mass production, simplified logistics and maintenance and a certain room for future upgrades. Pretty much what Starfleet DID with the Constitution and Excelsior classes in the 23rd century. And I wouldn't do it solely for the reason that I anticipate large scale warefare. It's simply much more economical.

So, you have for instance a modularised Intrepid that in this version of 2370ish Starfleet also is the smallest ship and which you can use as a mobile science lab as well - with all science shit swapped for phasers - a convoy escort, picket ship, destroyer/torpedo boat or patrol. The next largest thing would be the Lakota-subtype of the Excelsior, you know, the ship Leyton used. The role would be still the same for this as for the original Excelsiors. Why would I keep them around? Well, it's a very sound base design that you can refit to serve various purposes: destroyer leader/light cruiser, fast heavy escort, exploration vessel for first contact stuff.

Next is the Galaxy-class. Well, decent enough design -provided the kinks are fixed, which Starfleet eventually indeed did. Man, I'd give it a whole lot more phaser arrays and torpedo tubes. Like, they gave the original blueprint TWO torpedo tubes. FUCKING TWO! How about a dozen? Or add that big ass long range, hart hitting, super sniper-phaser cannon the X-type had in All Good Things? Seriously, if the mission profile states that the Galaxy has to go out there alone for a long time, you wanna have some quite tough tactical systems. In particular if one of the intended mission profiles is all about serving as a flagship, of all things.

I'd keep the Nebulas, largely to serve as general purpose support ships. You could configure them for electronic warfare and add as many sensors and jammers you can find. You also could use them as resupply ships, flying gas stations, essentially. Or how about as squad leaders for your Intrepid/Excelsior escorts. Or mobile com relay platforms.

Then there's the Sovereign. Well, no complaints here. They finally built something that actually does work from day one.

That would be the core, but there is a need to fight something like a Borg-cube without getting plastered with all the cutting beams in the universe. So, that means a lot of staying power. And a whole plethora of long range weaponry that have enough punch to penetrate hundreds of meters worth of the cube without the Borg being able to adapt immediately. That means a spinal mount particle beam. That means a very large, probably elongated hull. That means a lot of powerplants. I mean, such a ship wouldn't only be useful to pin down Borg cubes, but also as a long-range siege weapon that can snipe at Dominion/Cardassian shipyards and starbases without getting too much punishment in return. For something like this I'd probably even consider large calibre railguns as an alternative to directed energy weapons. I don't know how well ships are protected against metal slugs that come in at considerable fractions of lightspeed.

Also, fuck the Romulans. Install cloaks on all ships. Reinstate Pressman to finish the transphasic cloak.
 
could anyone explain why someone might prefer voyager over DS9?
no clue about what their boggle is, but the case has been made since DS9 was on that it may be a very nice scifi show in the Star Trek setting, it's not really so much of the exploring new worlds and seeking out new life and trekking the stars and shit like that
 
Next is the Galaxy-class. Well, decent enough design -provided the kinks are fixed, which Starfleet eventually indeed did. Man, I'd give it a whole lot more phaser arrays and torpedo tubes. Like, they gave the original blueprint TWO torpedo tubes. FUCKING TWO! How about a dozen? Or add that big ass long range, hart hitting, super sniper-phaser cannon the X-type had in All Good Things? Seriously, if the mission profile states that the Galaxy has to go out there alone for a long time, you wanna have some quite tough tactical systems. In particular if one of the intended mission profiles is all about serving as a flagship, of all things.
I just wouldn't have the Galaxy class at all and it's not hate for the design. It's just that in-universe, the Nebula-class does most of the job it does, but vastly cheaper and more flexible as it's a Franken-ship made by engineers told to weld spare parts together. Even giving it the Wave Motion Phaser-cannon is actually a bad idea. It's a point phaser that can't be used at warp and requires moving the entirety of the heavy ship to aim right. The reason why that refit even existed was because of Admiral Riker being a Boomer about the ship instead of switching over to a modern design. Really, the reason why it was considered a powerful ship during the Dominion War was they could turn that all that extra space into armor plating. What's the point in armor-plating the neck when Nebulas don't have necks to begin with? Sovereigns already function as proper flagships too, so Galaxy-classes don't have a niche post-Fleet modernization.

And Cloaking devices are such a proven technology that it can withstand angry Klingon engineers trying to troubleshoot it when it breaks. The reason why it's silly to see it used in Picard season 3 is because of input interfaces. I really don't expect the carburetor of a 1969 Dodge Challenger to work in my Tesla Cybertruck. How do you plug that in? That, and cloaks need to be upgraded every few decades due to improving sensor techniques.
 
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