Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

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Honestly the only Vulcanian we see in real detail in the series is Spock, and he's a haafa from a noble family. Enterprise also took place like 200 years before TOS and also the Vulcan High Command had been infiltrated by Romulans.

Most Vulcanians are probably more like that smug asshole who had a rivalry with Sisko, or like that one in the Maquis.
Look at some of the other Vulcans we do meet in TOS: Spock's dad barely speaks to him because he dared not go to the Vulcan Science Academy and went into Starfleet instead. Spock's girlfriend pits Spock against Kirk in a duel to the death simply so she could keep her side piece and get all of Spock's property. T'Pau, basically Vulcan's Prime Minister let's said duel go on even though she knows the humans don't really know what's going on, are physically weaker than Vulcans on the best of days, and are woefully unprepared for the environment and basically shrugs her shoulders when it's mentioned to her because it's tradition.

Much like how Worf is more Klingon than other Klingons. Worf isn't really a Klingon. We see Klingons all the time who are backbiting, duplicitous, will lie, cheat, steal, and kill innocents to win. But we never see Worf do those things because Worf has this idea of what Klingons should act like and it's a Klingon that has never really existed. He was raised by humans and probably only knew about Klingons by books. He never even really confronted what it meant to be Klingon. He saw the political class being assholes, but that's likely the political class of every race. Did he ever run into a Klingon commander like the one in Errand of Mercy that was willing to kill civilians by the thousands and torture people just to prove a point? How about one that didn't really want to go to war and would much rather stay home with his kids and grandkids and garden but went to war because it was his job? Klingons were basically reduced to Viking Bikers who yammered on about "honor" with their leaders who didn't go along with honorable actions, but Worf never really changed his perceptions about what it meant to be Klingon.

I think that's about how Spock and Vulcans are. Vulcans talk a great deal about logic, but can use logic to justify any action. Bigotry, duplicity, spying, violence, war, all of it is on the table when you can say "hey, it's logical somehow." Spock really does the same thing as Worf. He acts like the perfect Vulcan should act. He wants to be part of that world he's been shunned from his whole life and he wants it so bad he can taste it, but it's always just out of reach. The big difference between Spock and Worf is Spock grows and it's the V'Ger Incident that finally gives his the ability to say "logic has it's place but it isn't all there is" and he can finally move on with his life. He reconciles what being a Vulcan really means and what it means to him and that he can bridge both his Vulcan and Human parts. Worf never achieves that understanding that he too is both Klingon and Human (by upbringing) and that Klingons are like everyone else and not everything about them is good and not everything about Humans are weak or bad and he can pick and choose which parts to keep.

ADDED: I think a missed opportunity for TNG (or even DS9) was a Worf story. There's a planet that is considering joining the Federation, but before they do, they are annexed by the Klingons. Klingons show up, land troops, vaporize a city or two, round up folks, grab everything they can, turn people into slaves or ash, and we get to see A) Klingons in action as they really are and B) life for non-Klingons in the Empire.

Meanwhile, Picard's hands are tied because the planet was neutral and the Federation Council is unwilling to risk the alliance over an unaligned planet getting annexed. Too bad, so sad for them, but interstellar realpolitik is a thing you know.

So here's poor Worf. He has this idealized view of the Klingon Empire and for the first time in his life he sees it in action. He has to deal with that and he has to deal with his Human upbringing and those values because they are all diametrically opposed. What does he actually believe in the long run, the human way of diplomacy and self-determination and the Prime Directive or the Klingon values of Might Makes Right and that it's perfectly okay to murder thousands upon thousands of civilians if they so much as look funny at their Klingon betters.

And you can even throw in the Klingon commander who makes Worf deal with Klingons he can't put in a box. This commander can be the type that is just there because it's his job and he'd much rather be at home with his family and Worf has to deal with not knowing how to put someone who doesn't just say "honor" every third word or who is perfectly comfortable ordering mass executions and torture because he knows the Empire needs resources and those people are living on a world the Klingons were obviously destined to someday own.

The end of the episode could very well be one where there is no neat resolution. The Enterprise leaves the world in Klingon hands, Worf is forced to grow up and deal with what the Klingons really are AND how the Federation just abandoned people begging for help rather than risk their cushy Alliance, and that there is no solution that would go back to the status quo for him.

Obviously there would need to be some action scenes somehow, but it would be far more interesting to have that as a character study than Sheriff Worf on the Holodeck (even though that was an amusing episode).
 
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I agree with Future!Janeway pounding the shit out of the "genocide" button (which she literally did, with the Borg; when I was a teen I chose to believe that it was just that group of Borg that died, along with every individual Cube having their own Queen).

Every night before bed Janeway kisses her Arthur Harris poster, hugs her Curtis LeMay dakimakura and says her three Hail Mary’s to MacArthur.
 
Obviously there would need to be some action scenes somehow, but it would be far more interesting to have that as a character study than Sheriff Worf on the Holodeck (even though that was an amusing episode).
Have you seen American History X? Because there's this part where Edward Norton (an idealistic and somewhat naive neonazi) is disillusioned when he meets a white nationalist prison gang who aren't as committed to his white nationalist ideals. So I thought Worf's experience meeting average Klingons could mirror that.
 
Just watch the 3rd season and not care about the rest. The showrunners didn't.
I actually did that with Voyager. Joined in S3 iirc. There was the occasional reference I didn't get but I picked it up pretty much instantly and I appear to have avoided a really annoying small blonde woman and that's pretty much all I know about what I missed. Was never a problem.

However my growing dislike for Patrick Stewart doesn't really draw me to this show.
 
So here's poor Worf. He has this idealized view of the Klingon Empire and for the first time in his life he sees it in action. He has to deal with that and he has to deal with his Human upbringing and those values because they are all diametrically opposed. What does he actually believe in the long run, the human way of diplomacy and self-determination and the Prime Directive or the Klingon values of Might Makes Right and that it's perfectly okay to murder thousands upon thousands of civilians if they so much as look funny at their Klingon betters.

And you can even throw in the Klingon commander who makes Worf deal with Klingons he can't put in a box. This commander can be the type that is just there because it's his job and he'd much rather be at home with his family and Worf has to deal with not knowing how to put someone who doesn't just say "honor" every third word or who is perfectly comfortable ordering mass executions and torture because he knows the Empire needs resources and those people are living on a world the Klingons were obviously destined to someday own.
DS9 did a fair bit of confronting Worf with the reality of Klingon society. Though it showed Klingon society as more of a mix than your idea above. There's this great exchange between Best Dax and Worf along these lines:

I also smiled at "better, but a little obvious". The Klingons in DS9 (and Enterprise, imo) were much more nuanced. An obscure example but one that comes to mind - Worf's idiot son repeatedly fucking up on the Enterprise. The others make fun of him but ultimately they don't bully him the way you might expect. They are a competitive, rowdy bunch but they do have ways of accommodating those who can't measure up, like they do with Worf's son.
 
I get the point of your post but Worf literally became homies with that exact commander and they even went on Klingon vacation together so....uh...yeah.
Or that Worf amd Picard didn't gave the faintest of fucks when the klingon commander in TNG the Chase xenocided a pre-warp sentient species right in front of them just to deny them a clue to finding the Progenitor MacGuffin.
 
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I actually did that with Voyager. Joined in S3 iirc. There was the occasional reference I didn't get but I picked it up pretty much instantly and I appear to have avoided a really annoying small blonde woman and that's pretty much all I know about what I missed. Was never a problem.

However my growing dislike for Patrick Stewart doesn't really draw me to this show.
I actually like the pre Seven of Boob seasons better. No I don't care that Jeri Ryan is a fantastic actress, much better than the wooden plank that was Jennifer Lien. I just like it better in general.

I actually did that with Voyager. Joined in S3 iirc. There was the occasional reference I didn't get but I picked it up pretty much instantly and I appear to have avoided a really annoying small blonde woman and that's pretty much all I know about what I missed. Was never a problem.

However my growing dislike for Patrick Stewart doesn't really draw me to this show.
Also Worf is part of Section 31 in Picard. Frankly I would have rather seen a Section 31 spinoff starring Worf going on missions to actually help and save the Federation, instead of ... ah hell I'm not watching the Section 31 movie ever anyway so who cares what I think.

DS9 did a fair bit of confronting Worf with the reality of Klingon society. Though it showed Klingon society as more of a mix than your idea above. There's this great exchange between Best Dax and Worf along these lines:

I also smiled at "better, but a little obvious". The Klingons in DS9 (and Enterprise, imo) were much more nuanced. An obscure example but one that comes to mind - Worf's idiot son repeatedly fucking up on the Enterprise. The others make fun of him but ultimately they don't bully him the way you might expect. They are a competitive, rowdy bunch but they do have ways of accommodating those who can't measure up, like they do with Worf's son.
It felt like "Star Trek" when they did stuff like infiltrate the Klingon Empire. Frankly I disliked the entire Dominion War arc and I know I'm not the only person who disliked Season 7, and not just for Ezri, who I actually liked as a character and the actress.

it's finding out that the prophets raped Joseph Sisko that made me just prefer to imagine it didn't happen and the series ended with Dukat phasering Dax
 
T'Pau, basically Vulcan's Prime Minister let's said duel go on even though she knows the humans don't really know what's going on, are physically weaker than Vulcans on the best of days, and are woefully unprepared for the environment and basically shrugs her shoulders when it's mentioned to her because it's tradition.

Much like how Worf is more Klingon than other Klingons. Worf isn't really a Klingon. We see Klingons all the time who are backbiting, duplicitous, will lie, cheat, steal, and kill innocents to win.
This seems to be a pretty common theme in Star Trek. Characters actually have ideals and even share ideals that aren't true about their species. Vulcans were pretty much dicks, and sometimes petty, emotional dicks despite the "logical" bullshit. Same with Klingons. Contrary to their "honorable warrior" bullshit they were quite often just violent Space Niggers who needed a good hiding to get them to behave even minimally normally.

And let's not even get into the humans. Or the Federation itself. Oh yes, you have this Prime Directive thing, which you completely ignore whenever it's convenient. So back as long as Kirk, if you just ignored the Prime Directive and did whatever, and it worked out, Bob's your uncle.

I actually think the Ferengi were the only ones willing to live up to the reputation they had created for themselves and adopt a "yeah and so what are you gonna do about it" attitude about them. Well, them and the Borg.
 
This seems to be a pretty common theme in Star Trek. Characters actually have ideals and even share ideals that aren't true about their species. Vulcans were pretty much dicks, and sometimes petty, emotional dicks despite the "logical" bullshit. Same with Klingons. Contrary to their "honorable warrior" bullshit they were quite often just violent Space Niggers who needed a good hiding to get them to behave even minimally normally.

And let's not even get into the humans. Or the Federation itself. Oh yes, you have this Prime Directive thing, which you completely ignore whenever it's convenient. So back as long as Kirk, if you just ignored the Prime Directive and did whatever, and it worked out, Bob's your uncle.

I actually think the Ferengi were the only ones willing to live up to the reputation they had created for themselves and adopt a "yeah and so what are you gonna do about it" attitude about them. Well, them and the Borg.
I think the best way to "reconcile" or whatever all of that is that for Vulcans, Klingons, etc their "Logic" and "Honor" is representative of a Religion, and these people outwardly profess their religion as the best and the greatest and they are pious followers, but in reality they are not. It's actually a fair go-around/commentary on Religion with a franchise that was very hesitant to even touch that issue after TOS.
 
This seems to be a pretty common theme in Star Trek. Characters actually have ideals and even share ideals that aren't true about their species. Vulcans were pretty much dicks, and sometimes petty, emotional dicks despite the "logical" bullshit. Same with Klingons. Contrary to their "honorable warrior" bullshit they were quite often just violent Space Niggers who needed a good hiding to get them to behave even minimally normally.

And let's not even get into the humans. Or the Federation itself. Oh yes, you have this Prime Directive thing, which you completely ignore whenever it's convenient. So back as long as Kirk, if you just ignored the Prime Directive and did whatever, and it worked out, Bob's your uncle.

I actually think the Ferengi were the only ones willing to live up to the reputation they had created for themselves and adopt a "yeah and so what are you gonna do about it" attitude about them. Well, them and the Borg.
In some ways the Federation is the worst of the lot. They profess to care about life, laws, diplomacy, etc., but they are perfectly fine with watching entire worlds die and then shrug their shoulders, if they even give it that much thought. The aforementioned episode The Chase where the Klingons sterilize an inhabited world but no one on the Enterprise says much after the commercial break and apparently no one in the Federation says anything about it because the alliance between the two is just fine. The episode with Nikki Cox or Worf's brother are both going to have inhabited worlds die and Picard just says "oh well, it's better this way" and that seems to be Starfleet policy. Starfleet puts hidden outposts to spy on, I mean covertly learn to watch, emerging cultures because what could possibly go wrong? If Starfleet couldn't wipe some poor local's memory who ran into them, was there a policy in place to kill the guy rather than risk him going to his village to tell others of what he found? I know there was the episode with the Medieval Vulcanoinds and the Prime Directive issue, but supposed they couldn't find a work around? Then what?

It gets worse when Starfleet isn't a bystander but an active particpant. Sisko destroys a world because he's pissed at Eddington. I'm almost certain that is against Starfleet regulations because of that whole "let's explore the galaxy and learn about all new life, even non-intelligent life", but it's never brought up again. He never even gets so much as a stern talking to over the issue. At least when Kirk armed the locals in the episode where the Klingons armed their locals and turned the planet into Space Vietnam it was done to keep the locals free and to maintain the status quo, or when Kirk made those two warring planets stop walking into disintegration booths and either stop their war or actually fight the bloody thing he was allowing them to do what they wanted, just without the Enterprise being destroyed in the process. Kirk was willing to fight for freedom to choose. Part of that attitude comes down to the writers of TOS who had been WW2 vets. TNG and DS9 writers never went to war and never had to pay the price for freedom, it just was a normal part of life for the Baby Boomers.
 
I think the best way to "reconcile" or whatever all of that is that for Vulcans, Klingons, etc their "Logic" and "Honor" is representative of a Religion, and these people outwardly profess their religion as the best and the greatest and they are pious followers, but in reality they are not. It's actually a fair go-around/commentary on Religion with a franchise that was very hesitant to even touch that issue after TOS.
I dunno about the Vulcans but for the Klingons I think they just have a more utilitarian view of their "honor" than Worf does, since they grew up in it. For a Klingon, honor means following the rules because if you don't you're liable to lose your social standing, which means having your property seized, possibly being challenged to a fight and killed, etc. So from a normal Klingon's perspective, honor is just the law. And surely most Klingons (like probably most people) believe it's worth bending or even breaking certain laws if you think it's the better option, the law is unjust, or the consequences are miniscule.

Worf grew up in an environment where his commitment to Klingon honor was checked by no one. If he acted dishonorably (according to Klingon standards) nobody would care or even notice. They aren't the law for him, just a personal discipline. He only adheres to it because he truly believes in it. So when he runs into real Klingons they act like they don't really understand why he would prioritize his honor in situations where maintaining his honor is worse for everyone, especially himself, and they often give him an out and say "Worf, c'mon, nobody will care in this case," which he always ignores. It's like 'real' samurai honor (fealty to one's direct master and maintaining 'face') vs Bushido as written.

I know there was the episode with the Medieval Vulcanoinds and the Prime Directive issue, but supposed they couldn't find a work around? Then what?
They couldn't find a workaround in that episode. All the memory wipes and stuff failed. Which is why Picard eventually has to beam down and get shot by an arrow, because he decided it was less damaging that these primitive peoples thought he was a space alien than God. Which I'm not sure I'd agree with, but he's the Captain and he made the call. And he isn't punished for it, nor really should he be, since there's no real right answer to a situation like that.

I'm not sure it's intended by the writers, but the Prime Directive seems to be treated really more like a guideline than an absolute law. There are many times that the characters break it, and suffer no consequences. This is because their actions were probably judged and found to be understandable in context, as we the audience would also tend to judge their actions. To be fair though, it's usually talked about like there's no alternative when it comes up in dialogue.

It makes sense to have "Don't Interfere" in big red print at the top of the rulebook, because for every Kirk you have (apparently) droves of guys who are like "I want to introduce national socialism on a grand scale" or that one Captain that just started killing people and took over on that planet with the American and Communist factions. But it seems like 9/10 times if you break the Prime Directive, Starfleet doesn't come down hard on you if you can justify your ideals and it's clear you weren't trying to do something obviously exploitative or unnecessarily dangerous. The Prime Directive is a shit-test for bad captains.

I like the episode Pen Pals for this reason. It's a good discussion on where you should draw the line on helping people without becoming the arbiters of who lives and dies on a galactic scale, and in the end they do the right thing and save the people on the planet without them ever knowing they were saved. I don't like the episode with Worf's adopted brother, because everyone seems incredibly pissed about the actions of this guy who just genuinely wants to save lives, who isn't even in Starfleet no less and has no binding oath. And when it's time for all the people on the planet to die, the Enterprise crew gather on the bridge to salute their deaths, which Worf's brother finds kind of sick. I tend to agree. Nobody has ever accused Star Trek's writing of being consistent, of course.
 
Also Worf is part of Section 31 in Picard
I can think of almost no main character who would be less well-suited to Section 31 than Worf. Ezri's whole "you're the most honourable man I ever met" is relevant here. It's not that he's stupid, it's that he's better than that. O'Brien, Major Kira, Odo, Bashir, Geordi, Beverly, Hell even Deanna Troi. A bunch of them would have moral issues but they're complex enough that you could write them into it. And Geordi would probably get so wrapped up in it he lost track of the ethics by the end. But Worf? Mr Rigid himself? What were they thinking?

I dunno about the Vulcans but for the Klingons I think they just have a more utilitarian view of their "honor" than Worf does, since they grew up in it. For a Klingon, honor means following the rules because if you don't you're liable to lose your social standing, which means having your property seized, possibly being challenged to a fight and killed, etc. So from a normal Klingon's perspective, honor is just the law. And surely most Klingons (like probably most people) believe it's worth bending or even breaking certain laws if you think it's the better option, the law is unjust, or the consequences are miniscule.
It's fun to see Federation culture through outside eyes and imagine how it would seem. Klingons have an honour culture which is what Europeans used to have. (mis)Quoting Robert E. Howard seems appropriate here: "The civilised man is less polite than the uncivilised man, because the uncivilised man knows that is rudeness may get his head caved in". Klingons probably view the Federation as rude and duplicitous because you can be those things without direct consequence there. A man sleeps with another man's wife in the Klingon empire, you stab that fucker. In the Federation a counsellor probably shows up to help you deal with your negative feelings of anger. And they probably view the Federation as lacking in personal responsibility as well. The thing about an honour culture is that you or your family or clan or whatever, are the enforcers of justice. In the Federation or our own society it's an extension of, personal enforcement of justice is frowned upon, punished in fact! All enforcement of behaviour must be done by petitioning the State for redress. Federation culture must look like a society filled with tattle-tale children who go running to teacher all the time instead of standing up for themselves. Starfleet is a bit different as there's a very large selection bias so Klingons might be better disposed to get along with starfleet personnel but the general impression is probably something like this.
 
@William Murderface Just going to quote an early post of mine about the Prime directive.
Enterprise touched on this by providing an example of two sentient pre-warp species that inhabited one planet.


The dominant species basically corralled the lesser species as a sort of subservient race. However, both were happy with this arrangement as the dominant species cared for and provided all the lesser species needs if they had any.

The ultimate focal point of the episode is that the dominant species was dying out due a genetic disorder that was ravaging their whole race. The death of the dominant species would have opened up an avenue for the lesser species to rise and become the dominant species on the planet.

Furthermore, it was shown that the lesser species had the capability both genetically and intellectually to surpass the dominant race if they were only allowed to do so. Which they obviously are not when they have no challenge and everything is provided for them by the dominant species.

Now, the Enterprise could provide a cure for this genetic disorder or hand over warp technology so the dominant species could go and find others who will give them the cure, but the crew is split on whether they should hand anything over for obvious reasons.

It ends with a middle ground solution that I won't go into. But, the core idea of the prime directive is not to influence a society that is not capable of warp travel due to such influence causing unforeseen repercussions that could drastically harm other species (be they native or alien to the planet) or the planet's natural habitat. The logic being that if a species or a member of a species is meant to die from "natural" (in the most literal sense of the word) causes that are not caused or influenced by other sentient alien stellar races then it is out of the federations hands to interfere with nature.

If they had a warp drive, then yeah the federation would be all up in that because at that point a species is seen as mature enough to no longer be protected from the rest of the galaxy and accept the consequences. Much like a child turning into an adult at the age of 18 (at least in America) they are now held responsible for their actions and can make decisions on their own.

Now, the entire history of trek has plenty of examples of captains bending or even breaking these rules precisely because there are always exceptions to any rule. It has led to positive and, more importantly, negative outcomes on enough occasions to warrant it being a standard rule however.

With that said, I do agree that TNG does some pretty retarded grandstanding. Picard wanted to save a crystalline being that ate all life on a planet because it was "natural" for fucks sake.
 
Or that Worf amd Picard didn't gave the faintest of fucks when the klingon commander in TNG the Chase xenocided a pre-warp sentient species right in front of them just to deny them a clue to finding the Progenitor MacGuffin.
An inevitable consequence of one of the OG original sins of the franchise starting early TNG where Rodenberry and the writers were high on post 70s "oh we have to become bestest fwens with the soviets guiz! détente uber alles no matter how fucking savage and despicable they act against those forced into their sphere or how many atrocities they commit against third parties or how big an asshole they act towards us, because standing against authoritarian monsters we massively outclass is mean and stuff..." leftist bullshit which meant that the noblebright Federation were asspat tight with the epitome of a scumfuck race supremacist empire despite said empire screwing them over repeatedly and unapologetically solely because said empire was the USSR analogue during TOS

Obviously there was enough decent writing eventually injected into TNG and later DS9 to spackle over how glaring a moral deficiency this was and to give the Klingons enough of a "badass warrior culture" identity enough to make it easy to forget how phenomenally fucked up it was for the good guys to go from spitting furious condemnations at some hapless investment broker from the 1980s for his moral depravity to smiling blithely and casually watching their allies enslave and slaughter entire planets, but the general "federation intentionally kowtows to scumbag bullies who are enormously weaker than them and lets them get away with everything" schtick never went away even as the series matured.

@William Murderface Just going to quote an early post of mine about the Prime directive.
Speaking of original sins, I always forget how hilariously fucked up Dear Doctor was and yet how perfectly it illustrates how stupidly evil the prime directive shit got in old trek.

Smugly allowing a species begging for help to go extinct despite having the power to easily save them because saving them will hypothetically prevent another species from flourishing in the wake of their extermination thousands/millions of years from now along with some straight up cultist "THIS IS THE WILL OF EVOLUTION AND THE UNIVERSE" dogma is just jawdroppingly immoral, and as has been pointed out many times is on the same moral wavelength as refusing to save a dying child because of "oh well it would interfere with the cosmic plan and stuff, and the kid being dead might indirectly benefit some other kid down the line so saving them would thus be a crime against this hypothetical other kid in the future" reasoning
 
There's been more than a few humanity got annihilated and/or permanently enslaved sci-fi novels written where the "Federation*" is shown as a villain. Precisely because of the Prime Directive and attitude to the insufficiently advanced humans seeking help and those were written years before Dear Doctor.

*Federation exactly like in Star Trek but with the names changed to be legally distinct.
 
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Smugly allowing a species begging for help to go extinct despite having the power to easily save them because saving them will hypothetically prevent another species from flourishing in the wake of their extermination thousands/millions of years from now along with some straight up cultist "THIS IS THE WILL OF EVOLUTION AND THE UNIVERSE" dogma is just jawdroppingly immoral, and as has been pointed out many times is on the same moral wavelength as refusing to save a dying child because of "oh well it would interfere with the cosmic plan and stuff, and the kid being dead might indirectly benefit some other kid down the line so saving them would thus be a crime against this hypothetical other kid in the future" reasoning
however you have to draw the line somewhere, which is the dilemma. help the superior species and damn the other to probably eternal servitude, if there isn't a genocidal war at some point, or let them die out as somekind of "fate"?
a key point of star trek often is "even if I can, should I?".

With that said, I do agree that TNG does some pretty retarded grandstanding. Picard wanted to save a crystalline being that ate all life on a planet because it was "natural" for fucks sake.
it makes sense from a philosophical standpoint, what "right" does the federation have to kill it just because of X, which could be anything from eating humans to being blue.
eventually it would solve itself when it eventually runs into someone strong enough to fuck it up in self defense, but it wouldn't be a premeditated action.
 
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