Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[Captain Syrup]

It felt like he really had fun playing that Andorian.

Shran is James Cagney with antennae. Short, scrappy, constantly pissed off, and somehow always the scariest in the room.

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

Re-Animator wouldn't be the same without Combs.

 

[teriyakiburns]

I don't think Archer was a bad character, but I do think that Scott Bakula was not the right fit. It sometimes felt like I was watching Barry Bostwick as Brad Majors, which I honestly feel bad saying because Scott Bakula is a good actor

A big part of the problem is that he was playing a character who was trying to project an image very different from his real personality, which made his acting at certain points look forced and wooden. It was meant to be forced and wooden at those points; Archer is a nerd who tries too hard to be someone he isn't and who makes big, awkward speeches that probably sounded a lot better in his head, because he feels the weight of history on his shoulders and wants to present himself as a beacon of optimism and confidence to his crew (and to the history books). Once you view it like that, Bakula's portrayal makes a lot more sense.

Problem is, people generally interpret things on the TV at face value, so all they see is wooden acting and weirdly paced speeches and think "gee, this guy can't act too well".

 

[Captain Syrup]

Problem is, people generally interpret things on the TV at face value, so all they see is wooden acting

"No bro you don’t get it, Anakin’s supposed to be weird. He’s, like, a traumatized monk slave virgin with Jedi blue balls.”

 

[Hey Johnny Bravo]

"No bro you don’t get it, Anakin’s supposed to be weird. He’s, like, a traumatized monk slave virgin with Jedi blue balls.”

I get what @teriyakiburns is trying to say, but the problem is that writers often think they're being expertly subtle when they're really just being pretentious. Or, at best, they think they're doing "show, not tell" but instead they're doing "imply, not show." There are ways to convey that Archer is an overcompensating dork and that Anakin is an incel without putting "hints" and "clues." These aren't mystery shows and it's not the responsibility of the viewer to pick up on how clever the writers are.

In his screenplay for A Farewell to Arms, Samuel Fuller had an opening scene where Frederic Henry is in a WWI aid station and a field surgeon plops Henry's mangled cock into a bedpan to make two things abundantly clear: why Henry can't finalize his love for Catherine Barkley, and the brutal realities of war. Some guys come back with wounds you cannot see which have significant, lasting impacts. The studio said no, that's too graphic (this was the early 1950's), but that's what I'm talking about: you don't have to hide shit from viewers or play games with them. Just show them.

 

[Uncle Buck]

I get what @teriyakiburns is trying to say, but the problem is that writers often think they're being expertly subtle when they're really just being pretentious. Or, at best, they think they're doing "show, not tell" but instead they're doing "imply, not show." There are ways to convey that Archer is an overcompensating dork and that Anakin is an incel without putting "hints" and "clues." These aren't mystery shows and it's not the responsibility of the viewer to pick up on how clever the writers are.

There was a website called "The Agony Booth" that featured downright knee-slapping hilarious reviews of "bad" movies and featured a whole section known as "The Worst of Trek" with discussion of the episodes we all know constitute the absolute worst of Trek.

One of the ENT episodes they reviewed was the famed A Night in Sickbay in which the A plot is supposed to be either Porthos getting very sick after visiting an alien planet with the B plot being Archer displaying his "legendary" skills in diplomacy; I say "supposed" because which was supposed to be the A/B plot was very muddled, but the point of the review that the show went to great lengths to tell everyone that Archer was a truly great diplomat when pretty much everything he did illustrated the exact opposite.

Now, the review sort of discounted the fact that at the time he was dealing with the sickness and potential loss of his beloved dog - something that those of us who have them know can really fuck with your head - and, as such, might not have been in the best frame of mind for dealing with a seemingly antagonistic species giving them a great deal of grief because the beagle had done his business on one of their "sacred" trees [I'm not sure if they ever actually stated what made said tree "sacred"], but what you're saying is within transporter range of the same point.

There was also a decidedly pointless and rather painful "dream" sequence involving Archer, Hoshi, T'Pol and Porthos in the decontamination chamber, with T'Pol suggestively rubbing Porthos down with... whatever gel-type substance they supposedly used to decontaminate themselves.

It's really a shame that the people who ran that site came down with perhaps the worst case of Trump Derangement Syndrome ever recorded, completely went off the rails and ultimately shut it down.

 

[Hey Johnny Bravo]

Now, the review sort of discounted the fact that at the time he was dealing with the sickness and potential loss of his beloved dog - something that those of us who have them know can really fuck with your head - and, as such, might not have been in the best frame of mind for dealing with a seemingly antagonistic species giving them a great deal of grief because the beagle had done his business on one of their "sacred" trees [I'm not sure if they ever actually stated what made said tree "sacred"], but what you're saying is within transporter range of the same point.

Exactly. All they had to do was have Archer drop a line of "man, it's hard to focus on this diplomacy stuff while my beloved dog is sick and possibly dying." Not hard. You don't want to hamfist it, of course, but people state the obvious all the time. T'Pol notices Archer is on edge, asks him if he can handle what's going on. Archer says "all I can think about is Porthos." T'Pol says "it's just a dog" and Archer gives T'Pol a lesson on humans and their dogs. Maybe that did happen and it's been too long since I saw the episode, but this stuff is simple and realistic.

 

[teriyakiburns]

I get what @teriyakiburns is trying to say, but the problem is that writers often think they're being expertly subtle when they're really just being pretentious. Or, at best, they think they're doing "show, not tell" but instead they're doing "imply, not show." There are ways to convey that Archer is an overcompensating dork and that Anakin is an incel without putting "hints" and "clues."

I didn't think it was necessary to point out that the Enterprise writers weren't up to the task, given how badly they cocked it until season 4. Bakula did the best he could with what he had.

 

[Mussolini’s Merkin]

Re-Animator wouldn't be the same without Combs.

Weyoun: I was busy keeping all of Cardassia in check, as you well know. And what would the holo message say, Damar? “Founder dead, details later”?

 

[Ultraman Orb Dark]

He was great on Enterprise. Archer didn't start as a strong, commanding man, he pretty much only got the job because he was also the son of the man who created the warp drive. He had an optimistic view of space exploration, then he realizes the hard way that you can't go "out there" without a gun. The events of the Delphic Expanse and the Xindi story arc nearly broke him.

I don't think Archer was a bad character, but I do think that Scott Bakula was not the right fit. It sometimes felt like I was watching Barry Bostwick as Brad Majors, which I honestly feel bad saying because Scott Bakula is a good actor and - despite all its problems - I liked Enterprise. At least, I liked it more than Voyager.

The issue was that the show wanted to portray him as a flawed leader and a pillar of morality, to the point where his judgment and code of ethics influenced the Prime Directive.

In the earlier seasons, he picked a lot of fights with aliens (mainly the Vulcans) and was a horrible ambassador. Remember when he brought his dog to an important diplomatic meeting and refused to admit his fault in the matter when said dog pissed on a sacred tree?

If the point was to show him as flawed from the start while growing to represent the ideals future Starfleet officers would embrace, that would work. Instead, we're supposed to agree with him choosing to let an entire species die as the right thing solely because he's the Captain.

Also, why the fuck didn't the rest of the writers stop Rick Berman from making water polo Archer's sport? That was one of the dumbest fucking decisions I have ever seen. Okay, Picard likes fencing. Cool. Sisko likes baseball. I don't give a fuck what anyone says, the baseball episodes ruled. Janeway played tennis. Tennis is a great international sport. I know water polo has been an Olympic sport since 1900, but come the fuck on. Have him play soccer, or rugby, or literally anything else.

Just imagine if the other captains after Enterprise liked weird sports too.

Lorca: Beach volleyball

Georgiou: Arm wrestling

Pike: Pickleball

Saru: Quidditch

Burnham: Falconry

I also remember an episode of Voyager where Janeway and Chakotay were talking about a sumo wrestling match. Because while baseball is a dead sport in the future, sumo wrestling is super popular.

Shran the man was the best character of Enterprise. Every time he showed up shit happened and you knew it was gonna be good.

I feel like that had to do with the fact that him appearing meant the story had to be about developing relations between humans and Andorians, setting up their status as allies in the Federation.

iirc legends say Shran was going to be main crew by s6, either his ship alongside the Ent or he was weapons officer or something, I forget

That would have been really interesting.

How did we only get an Andorian crewmember by Strange New Worlds? Hell, we got a fucking Borg crewmember before Hemmer was introduced... and then he died towards the end of the first season.

That's just the power of Jeffery Combs.

Really it's a war crime that in multiverse of madness Disney didn't get Jeffery to come in and play an alt dr. strange.

Is it weird if I can also see him playing Mr. Fantastic too?

Exactly. All they had to do was have Archer drop a line of "man, it's hard to focus on this diplomacy stuff while my beloved dog is sick and possibly dying." Not hard. You don't want to hamfist it, of course, but people state the obvious all the time. T'Pol notices Archer is on edge, asks him if he can handle what's going on. Archer says "all I can think about is Porthos." T'Pol says "it's just a dog" and Archer gives T'Pol a lesson on humans and their dogs. Maybe that did happen and it's been too long since I saw the episode, but this stuff is simple and realistic.

T'Pol: Captain, why are you prioritizing the well-being of your pet over diplomatic relations with the Kreetassans?

Archer: (sighs) T'Pol, you know what we call dogs on Earth? "Man's Best Friend".

T'Pol: I... do not understand the moniker.

Archer: Dogs have been friends with humans for centuries. Even though we can't talk with them like other people, we still understand what they want, and vice versa. Children get their first taste of responsibility by raising a puppy. There are dogs trained to help the disabled or traumatized function in everyday life. We've even had dogs trained to detect bombs and save lives.

T'Pol: ...

Archer: But the most important thing about dogs is the sense of companionship we have with them. They'll do anything for us, and we'll do anything for them. Porthos isn't just my pet. He's my friend.

T'Pol: My apologies, Captain. I'm sure Doctor Phlox will be able to save your d--Porthos.

 

[Hey Johnny Bravo]

In the earlier seasons, he picked a lot of fights with aliens (mainly the Vulcans) and was a horrible ambassador. Remember when he brought his dog to an important diplomatic meeting and refused to admit his fault in the matter when said dog pissed on a sacred tree?

I actually thought Archer's loyalty to Porthos made sense in a lot of episodes. Klingons love their targs and humans love their dogs.

I also remember an episode of Voyager where Janeway and Chakotay were talking about a sumo wrestling match. Because while baseball is a dead sport in the future, sumo wrestling is super popular.

I didn't get the impression that baseball was dead so much as no one really played it, and it was considered kind of an obscure sport. Psychedelic rock is still around, but how many psychedelic rock bands can you personally name? Sort of like that. Also, to be fair, the only countries that really care about baseball are the US and Japan. Janeway and Chakotay being weirdos into an obscure sport like sumo wrestling makes sense, but I am willing to admit that I may be too kind on this point.

With water polo, my issue was more that it came out of nowhere and they didn't do anything with it. Fencing was used as a plot device in TNG. Baseball was brought up all the time in DS9. Racquet sports were featured a few times in Voyager. Water polo never fucking came up again in Enterprise.

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

Whatever the case, people will still play chess by the 2370s.

 

[Captain Syrup]

sumo wrestling is popular in the future

How? In the enlightened 24th-century utopia of ST obesity was eradicated.

Oh.

 

[Kyria the Great]

Honestly I'm am somewhat sad of what they did to Captain Lorca as he could have been one of the most complicated and nuanced captains in the history of Trek. A man perhaps trying to do the right thing but scarred by PTSD from the Klingon war and maybe even willing to do whatever it takes to win the war as losing is the end of humanity.

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

Honestly I'm am somewhat sad of what they did to Captain Lorca as he could have been one of the most complicated and nuanced captains in the history of Trek. A man perhaps trying to do the right thing but scarred by PTSD from the Klingon war and maybe even willing to do whatever it takes to win the war as losing is the end of humanity.

Haha, can't have that in the current year. It's better to make him a member of the space Hitler-faction that rules an alternate universe.

 

[Hey Johnny Bravo]

Haha, can't have that in the current year. It's better to make him a member of the space Hitler-faction that rules an alternate universe.

All I knew about Discovery is it had a black woman named Michael as the main character and I lost interest right there.

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

All I knew about Discovery is it had a black woman named Michael as the main character and I lost interest right there.

And instead of making her crazy, charming, angry and badass - like they did with Sisko - they wrote her to appear as a blubbering retard. I mean, that's impressive and requires some level of skill...

 

[Hey Johnny Bravo]

And instead of making her crazy, charming, angry and badass - like they did with Sisko - they wrote her to appear as a blubbering retard. I mean, that's impressive and requires some level of skill...

The entirety of Discovery could be described as "failing upward."

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

The entirety of Discovery could be described as "failing upward."

They failed so hard, they ended up in the 32nd century, and of course: it has to be grimderp.

 

[Ultraman Orb Dark]

Whatever the case, people will still play chess by the 2370s.

And read books that are considered classic by our standards.

How? In the enlightened 24th-century utopia of ST obesity was eradicated.

View attachment 7454324

Oh.

To be fair, this was what one of the last baseball stars before the sport went out of style looked like.

Honestly I'm am somewhat sad of what they did to Captain Lorca as he could have been one of the most complicated and nuanced captains in the history of Trek. A man perhaps trying to do the right thing but scarred by PTSD from the Klingon war and maybe even willing to do whatever it takes to win the war as losing is the end of humanity.

I actually like Discovery, and think the twist itself is well-executed... but then they immediately killed out Lorca without really doing anything with his character.

He's supposed to be a cheap Trump allegory, but it's hard to really see him as evil because the person he's trying to overthrow was a violent tyrant who ate Kelpiens. While not exactly pleasant, Lorca never really mistreated any of his crew, least of all the aliens like Saru, another Kelpien.

And you can't say they didn't have enough time, because there were still two more episodes after they left the Mirror Universe to wrap up the Klingon War.