Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[khaine]

It worked for that situation but move it to voyager and suddenly most of the plots no longer work. I think it can be a tool... but one more suited to a war story like ds9. I don't hate it I just think it solves to many problems. Speaking for in world lore though you would never not want to have stealth.

Actually, thats a great point. Why didn't Janeway order the crew to build a cloaking device while they were in the delta quadrant? Would have saved them so much grief, even if it could only be used for short periods of time

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

Wait, is New Sydney like space New Jersey? I like how the Tegans left their enlightened Federation society to go work for the mob.

The Tigans could have bought the competing mining firms, but they didn't and the retarded son was like "haha taking loan shark money at 750% APR is the best way. we are smart!". What did they think was going to happen? Now his MILF-mom is sold into Orion Syndicate-sex slavery. Good job, retard-

 

[Captain Syrup]

The RLM story is kind of worse than you'd think. There are third-string Youtubers who pull in more than 40,000 views with their videos.

And this is Star Trek for fuck's sake. Trek used to have a fanbase that was the definition of hardcore. I guess 'used to' is the appropriate term there. They may still be out there, but they're sure as fuck not watching Kurtzmann-Trek.

Star Trek’s not a real franchise anymore. People can smell the rot.



It used to have some pedigree. Whoopi showing up was a big deal. Now it’s like Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D trying to be the MCU on TV. Total barf. Those actors will be lucky if they get cast on S.W.A.T. after this.

Who’s even a big name in recent Trek? Rebecca Romijn still looks very beautiful, but her acting is constantly forced and lame. Holly Hunter makes Jodie Whittaker look like Cate Blanchett. Why is Becky Lynch news if she's just going to be some crappy background extra? It's just sad when a familiar name shows up on Trek at this point.

 

[Mussolini’s Merkin]

And this is Star Trek for fuck's sake. Trek used to have a fanbase that was the definition of hardcore. I guess 'used to' is the appropriate term there. They may still be out there, but they're sure as fuck not watching Kurtzmann-Trek.

It's almost like turning your back on and purposefully alienating your old fans doesn't pay off. Tre

What can I say, I enjoy experiencing bij.

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One day I will have to give Star Trek: Klingon a try, or watch it or something

 

[Flexo]

They should have written Jadzia from the start to be like that. It would have been a lot of fun with her going "listen here you little chucklefucks" every single time the Bajorans go full retard and cause a scene that'd require direct Federation intervention.

You go back and watch like the original TNG episode...

You can see where the seed of the idea came from: What if the body snatcher aliens were actually good and decent guys?

The problem is turning one of them into a weekly cast member.

How do you write consistently a centuries old being? Why would they be a lower down officer and not in charge of the place? Or a high end fleet admiral? What kind of growth can this character really have by then?

So you can see why they started shifting more into the host is still their own person, and the wurm is just riding along, occasionally interjecting. But they never bothered to give that other character a voice or really establish any kind of rules to them. Like what if Jadzia and Dax actually had a disagreement?

Even the showrunners admitted that Ezri is what they should have done originally with Dax. They didn't realize originally they had set up Jadzia for a creative dead end.

(Though I've always wondered how pregnancy would work for the Trill. The symbiote has already got to be sharing nutrients with the host. To try and host them AND then produce an offspring on top of it? That would wreck some biological machinery. They really should have established that taking a symbiote meant giving up offspring if you're a trill female - and/or you would only be able to produce symbiote offspring if you had any at all.)

 

[Mr. Racewar1488]

One day I will have to give Star Trek: Klingon a try, or watch it or something

I thought that clip was from the TNG VHS board game?

 

[Flexo]

It's almost like turning your back on and purposefully alienating your old fans doesn't pay off. Tre


One day I will have to give Star Trek: Klingon a try, or watch it or something

I got you meatbags.

 

[Mussolini’s Merkin]

I thought that clip was from the TNG VHS board game?

I thought that’s what I was called? I may be entirely wrong, probably am.

 

[Captain Syrup]

Now his MILF-mom is sold into Orion Syndicate-sex slavery. Good job, retard-

Leigh Taylor Young was in her fifties in that episode? No way, she looked good.

I keep mixing her up with Leslie Anne Warren, two vaguely similar-looking white women with three names.

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

The problem is turning one of them into a weekly cast member.

How do you write consistently a centuries old being? Why would they be a lower down officer and not in charge of the place? Or a high end fleet admiral? What kind of growth can this character really have by then?

So you can see why they started shifting more into the host is still their own person, and the wurm is just riding along, occasionally interjecting. But they never bothered to give that other character a voice or really establish any kind of rules to them. Like what if Jadzia and Dax actually had a disagreement?

What the writers failed to make clear consistently is that Jadzia's personality is actually a composite personality of all the Dax hosts plus whoever Jadzia used to be pre-worm implant. Also, they should have explained that none of the previous Dax-hosts had been in Starfleet, which would explain the relatively low rank Jadzia had. She was the first of the hosts to do that career, and from her perspective it was the logical choice to add knowledge to the Dax-worm. And they could have done all of that with a few lines in the very first episode.

But they didn't, and so the really cool wacky stuff with Jadzia knowing everything except not how to Starfleet was never really pulled off. Like, I don't think for a second someone like Curzon would follow orders at every given turn. In some cases he would have been "how about no? this order is not only illegal and by that invalid, but it's also the dumbest shit, I expected better from you, Ben".

They eventually figured out what you could do with such a character, and then had two seasons of good Dax-stuff. But by then it was too late, because they've waited too long. S6 Jadzia really should have been there in S1. As I said before, that could have been fun, especially with regards to the Bajoran plots where Sisko has no fucking idea how to navigate this bullshit and Jadzia gives him the insights necessary to conduct and survive the negotiations and whatnot.

 

[Flexo]

What the writers failed to make clear consistently is that Jadzia's personality is actually a composite personality of all the Dax hosts plus whoever Jadzia used to be pre-worm implant. Also, they should have explained that none of the previous Dax-hosts had been in Starfleet, which would explain the relatively low rank Jadzia had. She was the first of the hosts to do that career, and from her perspective it was the logical choice to add knowledge to the Dax-worm. And they could have done all of that with a few lines in the very first episode.

All excellent points. I want to make clear the following isn't me arguing with you, but building on your points.

The challenge from a TV show perspective is that you can show how a personality is a composite in a book where we can "get inside" a character's head - how do you show that in a TV show? If I tell you "oh this person is really a mixture of 7 other people" that doesn't mean anything if you have no idea who those people are. It would make no difference to the audience whether the character is 1 person or 7. (Now if they did Dax like say the comic superhero Firestorm, where the audience got to see a floating head of the previous host talking to her...)

Heck part of why Jadzia ended up working in later seasons is because the audience had gotten to know things enough the "concept" started being understandable to them after episodes like the one where she got to meet previous hosts (and you got your pfp).

This is even more tricky to do in a collaborative effort environment like TV production back in the 90s/00s. You would need either every writer to be autisticly detail oriented or have some kind of supervisor overseeing specifically the Dax character to even have a hope of pulling it off.

I think it was Disparu who pointed out that a lot of StarFleet Academy episodes watch like they were all written by different writers who never consulted with each other. Which isn't a problem... until you have serialized, streaming story arcs, in which case you need writers to understand the consequences of what came before. Unfortunately it seems like SFA suffered from trying to be modern streaming stories using old TV methods which sabotage the whole thing.

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

The challenge from a TV show perspective is that you can show how a personality is a composite in a book where we can "get inside" a character's head - how do you show that in a TV show? If I tell you "oh this person is really a mixture of 7 other people" that doesn't mean anything if you have no idea who those people are. It would make no difference to the audience whether the character is 1 person or 7. (Now if they did Dax like say the comic superhero Firestorm, where the audience got to see a floating head of the previous host talking to her...)

DS9 realized as much, that's why they had that S4 episode with the zhian'tara and Jadzia meeting previous hosts. This is something they should have done in S2, and it should have been a two parter. I'd happily sacrifice the time travel hijinks two parter for that. That always can be done later. Such a two-part episode would set up a lot of things, but most importantly why Jadzia ticks the way she does. Then you have Odo getting a new perspective on how and why the people around him are the way they are.

This is even more tricky to do in a collaborative effort environment like TV production back in the 90s/00s. You would need either every writer to be autisticly detail oriented or have some kind of supervisor overseeing specifically the Dax character to even have a hope of pulling it off.

What's another 100k/year for a couple writers developing the characters properly over time? Autism of that level is necessary to pull complex ideas off, after all, also exactly because Dax is the hardest to write properly. DS9 was lucky to have at least some autists doing things and trying to think long-term.

 

[Ultraman Orb Dark]

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I'm still skeptical about making her counselor because she's as useful as a magic 8-ball.

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Vic Fontaine is out here fixing PTSD while she’s collapsing in a puddle of tears all the time.

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And they were definitely haunted by Troi.

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The episode where she visits her family is fun. Imagine inheriting 300 years of memories and disappointing every ancestor simultaneously.

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Wait, is New Sydney like space New Jersey? I like how the Tigans left their enlightened Federation society to go work for the mob.

I love how neither the empath or the person with several lifetimes of wisdom was as effective a counselor as LoungeSingerGPT was.

Why didn't Janeway order the crew to build a cloaking device while they were in the delta quadrant?

"Something something Treaty of Algernon" is my guess.

 

[WhiskeyJack]

How do you write consistently a centuries old being? Why would they be a lower down officer and not in charge of the place? Or a high end fleet admiral? What kind of growth can this character really have by then?

So you can see why they started shifting more into the host is still their own person, and the wurm is just riding along, occasionally interjecting. But they never bothered to give that other character a voice or really establish any kind of rules to them. Like what if Jadzia and Dax actually had a disagreement?

Even the showrunners admitted that Ezri is what they should have done originally with Dax. They didn't realize originally they had set up Jadzia for a creative dead end.

This is why Stargate remains the best science fiction show. It deftly handled these sort of questions with multiple characters, including some of the main cast a few times and they actually remember to bring those times up again later when relevant which is something Star Trek never did well.

Just way more curiosity and courage to actual explore the implications of hosts and symbiotes.

 

[Captain Syrup]

They eventually figured out what you could do with such a character, and then had two seasons of good Dax-stuff. But by then it was too late, because they've waited too long.

Bashir was a mess, but at least he had Garak.



Jadzia is the science girl… when she's finding wormholes or accidentally stranding the crew with their future descendants. She doesn't do much science, otherwise.



Every dude on the station was thirsty for her at some point. Even Captain Boday!



Everyone wants to fuck her. She totally fucked Morn. But she doesn't want to fuck Julian! That's funny...funny as a hangnail.



At least she’s not constantly getting kidnapped by sex-slavers like Troi or Seven.



She’s the socialite, she can dance at Ferengi parties, Klingon parties… They tried pairing her with Kira a few times because they were the female leads, but Jadzia’s more of a “boys’ club” kind of gal, Kira is slightly more prejudiced so that wasn't much material there.



And then there’s Joran Dax. Oh no, not another Hannibal Lecter whispering “you’re a born killer”. She’s never shown a hint of murder tendencies. Who gives a shit? And he’s played by like three actors. I’m falling asleep just thinking about it. Can we get back to space and politics please?



I would have just killed him off in the first episode, reabsorbed him into Dax, move on. Enemies into friends, like Star Trek usually does.

 

[CervixHammer]

If the 40k/episode stat is correct that means a majority of people pirated it. It's how I watched it.

Yar har fiddle-dee-dee, being Orion is alright with me!

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

Everyone wants to fuck her.

This Everyone-dude is clearly in the right for wanting that. You'd have to be an absolute faggot not even thinking about it.

At least she’s not constantly getting kidnapped by sex-slavers like Troi or Seven.

It would have been funny tho if they did that instead of the "Dax is about to get killed over bullshit"-episodes we got literally once a season. Most of those plots could and should have been resolved by Dax deploying that secondary hard drive with 350 years worth of experiences. Curzon for example would have told the Klaestron guys that wanted to arrest and execute Dax to get fucked, and he absolutely would have shoved a bat'leth through their ass to make that point stick. Instead, Jadzia tries and nearly fails sitting that one out...

Jadzia is the science girl… when she's finding wormholes or accidentally stranding the crew with their future descendants. She doesn't do much science, otherwise.

>be Jadzia
>store a proto-universe in her lab's basement
>it explodes nearly a quarter of DS9
>"whooops!"
>tfw

To be fair... Trek was never that good at "doing science". That's not a specific Jadiza-problem. Science when it doesn't lead to awesome explosions is just boring. REEEEE about that all you like, you know I'm right!

Can we get back to space and politics please?

Well, we could have had a Trill civil war over the bellyworms that episode hinted at as a possibility, and that would've been a neat opportunity to tie into the Bluegills and Beverly's lover.

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

Why did they make her tickle Worfs pickle anyway

Leave the lonely single dad alone, Old man.

 

[Whiskey]

I love how neither the empath or the person with several lifetimes of wisdom was as effective a counselor as LoungeSingerGPT was.

"Something something Treaty of Algernon" is my guess.

I gave it more thought then is deserved and came to the conclusion cloaking in star trek is bullshit...

Each ship has shields (or nearly every ship) so by default you have a invisible energy bubble around you to start with. Changing how opaque it is shouldn't really be that hard if thats your starting point. That wouldn't be true cloaking and you could be scanned but it would throw off a lot of the lower tech civilizations.

How cloaking works is more mysterious...it must be based more on magic then science as I can't come up with a reason for why you can't cloak and have shields active. It feels like its operating more on video game balancing rules.

 

[Hey Johnny Bravo]

a lot of StarFleet Academy episodes watch like they were all written by different writers who never consulted with each other.

A lot of TV shows are written by different writers who never consult with each other. It's rare when a TV show has the same writers over a long period of time. Some shows do actually hire someone to be the "loremaster" who keeps things consistent, but it doesn't always work. Writers want to stake their claim and "be creative," which is why they will sometimes take a very straightforward book and change a bunch of random shit in the adaptation.

I'd happily sacrifice the time travel hijinks two parter for that.

Past Tense was great, though. What the fuck are you on about?

This is why Stargate remains the best science fiction show.

You in da rong hood, why boi.

I don't know why, but Terry Farrell looked so fucking good in this scene.

To be fair... Trek was never that good at "doing science". That's not a specific Jadiza-problem. Science when it doesn't lead to awesome explosions is just boring. REEEEE about that all you like, you know I'm right!

Hard science fiction is difficult to pull off. It requires a level of expertise that most writers simply do not have or care to research.