Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[Overly Serious]

As somone who finds Family Guy deeply unfunny and basically just a sequence of US racial and social stereotypes, I'll probably give The Orville a miss, then.

 

[Lithos]

I forgot about that. McFarlane was banging girl who played the alien chick right? Then he fired her when they broke up.

Baller move right there.

At least it wasn't a petty episode with her dying like a bitch. It was actually a good sendoff.

But still... it was a sendoff after a breakup.

As somone who finds Family Guy deeply unfunny and basically just a sequence of US racial and social stereotypes, I'll probably give The Orville a miss, then.

I would say "your loss", but I despise when people tell me about a series and begins with "YOU HAVE GOT TO WATCH IT!"

 

[UnKillFill]

As somone who finds Family Guy deeply unfunny and basically just a sequence of US racial and social stereotypes, I'll probably give The Orville a miss, then.

I can't promise you'll like The Orville, but the humor in it is very different from (and in my opinion much funnier than) Family Guy, while still being vaguely McFarlanesque if that makes sense.

I'd recommend checking the first episode out at least, you might be surprised. I know I was.

(I haven't actually seen season 2 yet, but I've heard it gets really good by the end of it.)

 

[Miller]

As somone who finds Family Guy deeply unfunny and basically just a sequence of US racial and social stereotypes, I'll probably give The Orville a miss, then.

It's not "Family Guy in Space" though.

 

[AverageAnimeWatcher]

Yeah, I'm also not into Family Guy, but I did like The orville.

The Orville sells itself as a Galaxy Quest type of parody in trailers, but it's actually more like TNG+ Jokes. It's what made me interested in Trek in the first place, so I do like it.

Honestly, it's basically Star Trek in all but name. Literally. They really only changed the names of species and tech, but it's all the same.

The other big difference is that it does have more of a sitcom feel than TNG's brand of professionalism. But it doesn't detract the show. The jokes aren't there to mock Star Trek-like shows but to lighten the mood.

I do recommend it.

 

[Lithos]

The benefits of Orville are something Roddenberry wanted with the Animated Series. "Alien" aliens, and not just rubber foreheads. Let's put the Caitians aside for a moment. One of my favorite aliens so far is the part-time porn dealer engineer on the ship.

 

[Miller]

chubby krill housewives

 

[Judge Holden]

The benefits of Orville are something Roddenberry wanted with the Animated Series. "Alien" aliens, and not just rubber foreheads. Let's put the Caitians aside for a moment. One of my favorite aliens so far is the part-time porn dealer engineer on the ship.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=sduy3O--8Mw

To be honest, that was actually the first clip I have ever seen of the Orville, and it felt more star trek than anything released with a star trek label for over fifteen years, even with the chill penis-alien porn dealer taking a commission from some guy who reminds me of Tuvok

I might have to give it a watch at some point now

 

[Stab You in the Back]

Klyden did nothing wrong.

Orville is good. Season 2 starts off a little slow because I think they were saving their budget for the midseason finale, but season 1 is solid from beginning to end.

 

[Love Soze]

As somone who finds Family Guy deeply unfunny and basically just a sequence of US racial and social stereotypes, I'll probably give The Orville a miss, then.

Honestly, I can't stand anything else Seth had done, but I love The Orville. Give it a few episodes.

 

[L50LasPak]

not all nerds contribute to the war effort tho. an empire that values an honorable death probably doesn't think highly of medicine or how to prolong life, since no one wants to die of old age in bed or be a cripple for the rest of his life.

If you get shot and your guts are hanging out, do you want to die on the ground useless or do you want to get back up and live to fight another day? That nerd running up to you with his medikit gives you the latter.

 

[Cyril Sneer]

I always figured a race as dedicated to war as the Klingons would actually have high respect for the people who figure out things like logistics, engineering, tactics, morale, intelligence, etc. All of these things win wars just as much as having big guns and being able to melee a dude with a sword. In Klingon society, people who disrespect the nerds that build their fun toys are probably not viewed with a ton of honor.

They probably go though periods of history where more scholarly pursuits are looked down upon when their weird clan system breaks down, but at the end of the day the guy who invented Disruptors probably had more bitches than the guy who invented the Kalashnikov. I blame that meme comic for making up this idea that Klingons are idiot space vikings.

In an honorable society its not cool to pick on the weak. The reason Worf's son gets picked on in DS9 is because he legit sucks at his job. I don't think he's indicative of every Klingon nerd; a bunch of them probably have warriors lining up out the door to try out the newest super-sharp knife just like the blacksmiths of old.

Given the somewhat feudalistic nature of Klingon culture, it might be helpful to compare the status of craftsmen in real-world feudal societies like medieval Europe or Japan. Granted, Klingon society is somewhat more loosely-structured and upwardly-mobile than feudal Europe, certainly more so than the Japanese equivalent, but I think you're right to speculate that technicians, artisans and scholars probably command a great deal of respect. There are probably songs and operas celebrating the Klingon version of the great smith Wayland, we just haven't heard them yet.

Seconded. If anything the failing of the Klingons is not that they love war so much, its that they have a really feudalistic society almost bordering on medieval Crusader-era Knights.

To further the parallel, Crusader-era knights were much more sophisticated than contemporary and modern stereotypes make them out to be. Among other things, they loved commissioning skilled artisans to produce elaborate and highly-detailed effigies of themselves in various media (wood, stone, brass, etc) to decorate their tombs with, but this isn't the sort of detail that tends to be brought up when you're trying to dictate terms to the Byzantine Emperor or bash in the head of the nearest Saracen.

Yeah their was also the subtext that Klingon social norms had an emphasis on earnestness where being load as fuck and assertive was the way to go, I imagine the mild even tempered humans and stoic Vulcans probably came across as disingenious from their social ques. They also had operas, tea drinking rituals and other such normal people stuff.

I think Klingons have a bit of a love-hate relationship with humans, since the latter are, or were, culturally and psychologically similar enough that educated Klingons can find all sorts of resonant parallels ("You've not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the original Klingon") and even know-nothing KDF grunts can admire how utterly ruthless and belligerent human Starfleet personnel soldiers can become under the right circumstances, but the Federation's (sometimes mouth-servicey) fixation on being polite and diplomatic probably causes them a great amount of frustration, as they would likely see it as an essentially dishonest façade over the more Klingon-like behavioral traits that all humans retain deep down.

Fun fact about Cardassians is they see squabbling as heavy flirting which puts a real interesting spin on boths Dukats and Garaks interactions with the rest of the cast.

Pretty sure that's specific to Cardie women.

Enterprise unfortunately didn't expand on this idea but it was a good one. The Empire probably goes back and forth though periods of decline where they become more foaming-at-the-mouth and begin to disrespect the people they need to keep things going. But when they pull it together they come back and stay martial but become more contemplative they're a force to be reckoned with..

Seems reasonable.

...they just had to show the charm was a facade and when it's peeled back he's not a nice guy at all.

Or what if he is, and sincerely believes that everything he's doing is (regrettably but necessarily) for the greater good...

not all nerds contribute to the war effort tho. an empire that values an honorable death probably doesn't think highly of medicine or how to prolong life, since no one wants to die of old age in bed or be a cripple for the rest of his life.

There's a difference between being crippled for life and unnecessarily bleeding out on the battlefield because no one on your side knows how to apply a tourniquet (not to mention we've seen a fair number of old Klingons running around).

The novelization of TNG's "Unification" two-parter had the Klingon KDF captain ferrying Picard and Data through the Romulan Neutral Zone all testy because his ship's doctor was a useless drunk and he (the captain) is under the impression that his recently dislocated shoulder is a career-ending injury...until Data randomly decides to just pop it back into place, which of course changes the captain's outlook completely. I always thought that the authorial logic at work there was a bit ridiculous, since you'd think that a self-conscious Proud Warrior Race like the Klingons would have a fairly advanced knowledge of battlefield medicine. I mean, yeah, "today is a good day to die" and all that, but let's not do the enemy's job for them.

I know I'm alone in this, but I would've liked to have seen more Vreenak. He delivered some of the best passionless snipes. Sure, he's know know as "IT'S A FAKE!" meme. Also granted he was just a senator and not Tal Shiar. Could have seen his power challenged by a hypothetical Dominion push post-conquering of the Federation. Knew his shuttle was rigged, transported to another cloaked ship. Then to have him come back and be catty to Picard with the whole evacuation debacle. A fan can dream...

Indeed.

In fairness, this was at least suggested as far back as TOS - with the reveal in the finale of The Trouble With Tribbles that the attache to some random Federation bureaucrat in the middle of nowhere was actually a deep cover Klingon agent.

Good catch.

 

[GethN7]

Or what if he is, and sincerely believes that everything he's doing is (regrettably but necessarily) for the greater good...

Dukat was a considerable egomaniac, and while that was a part of his character a degree, it was in a very self-serving way.

When he speaks of his time running Terok Nor, he acts as if he was the best guy to ever run the place and how could the Bajorans be so ungrateful when he was the best overseer they ever had. He tries to win over Sisko more than once and Sisko makes a point to emphasize they will NEVER be buddy-buddy, and Dukat just refuses to believe this until his sanity goes down the toilet and his egomaniacal belief he should be able to win over everyone cracks apart and he basically turns into evil Sisko post "Waltz".

His supervillainy was cartoonish in it's exaggeration, but it all came from the logical place he did believe his own bullshit to a point, but only because that belief sustained his ego until he came apart and his ego was smashed to pieces. What was left was a bitter, spiteful asshole who was all "if I can't make them love me, I'll make them regret not doing so as I kill them with my hate!"

So you aren't wrong, but his well-intentioned extremism attitude he took initially was a cover for his ego, not a true motive, which was to keep that ego going and sustained. If acting like a well-intentioned extremist served to give him a rationalization for doing horrible things while still thinking he was the hero of his own story, then his ego was down with buying that.

 

[Cyril Sneer]

Dukat was a considerable egomaniac, and while that was a part of his character a degree, it was in a very self-serving way.

When he speaks of his time running Terok Nor, he acts as if he was the best guy to ever run the place and how could the Bajorans be so ungrateful when he was the best overseer they ever had. He tries to win over Sisko more than once and Sisko makes a point to emphasize they will NEVER be buddy-buddy, and Dukat just refuses to believe this until his sanity goes down the toilet and his egomaniacal belief he should be able to win over everyone cracks apart and he basically turns into evil Sisko post "Waltz".

His supervillainy was cartoonish in it's exaggeration, but it all came from the logical place he did believe his own bullshit to a point, but only because that belief sustained his ego until he came apart and his ego was smashed to pieces. What was left was a bitter, spiteful asshole who was all "if I can't make them love me, I'll make them regret not doing so as I kill them with my hate!"

So you aren't wrong, but his well-intentioned extremism attitude he took initially was a cover for his ego, not a true motive, which was to keep that ego going and sustained. If acting like a well-intentioned extremist served to give him a rationalization for doing horrible things while still thinking he was the hero of his own story, then his ego was down with buying that.

I think he would have been more interesting as a genuine well-intentioned extremist.

 

[ZMOT]

I'd recommend checking the first episode out at least, you might be surprised. I know I was.

first episode isn't even that good imo, and iirc fox fucked with the order again, 4th episode is actually much more treklike and should be the second.

If you get shot and your guts are hanging out, do you want to die on the ground useless or do you want to get back up and live to fight another day? That nerd running up to you with his medikit gives you the latter.

combat medics != scientists. they're also not constantly fighting, as cool as he might be in that situation there's a good chance he'd still give klingon egon spengler a wedgie in the starship cantina.

There's a difference between being crippled for life and unnecessarily bleeding out on the battlefield because no one on your side knows how to apply a tourniquet (not to mention we've seen a fair number of old Klingons running around).

The novelization of TNG's "Unification" two-parter had the Klingon KDF captain ferrying Picard and Data through the Romulan Neutral Zone all testy because his ship's doctor was a useless drunk and he (the captain) is under the impression that his recently dislocated shoulder is a career-ending injury...until Data randomly decides to just pop it back into place, which of course changes the captain's outlook completely. I always thought that the authorial logic at work there was a bit ridiculous, since you'd think that a self-conscious Proud Warrior Race like the Klingons would have a fairly advanced knowledge of battlefield medicine. I mean, yeah, "today is a good day to die" and all that, but let's not do the enemy's job for them.

unless of course it could be considered a weakness getting help from someone else when being defeated and not taking the defeat like a true klingon and bleed out honorably.
old just means undefeated, although even that is stretching it when you think about the "talk shit get hit" mentality and they're too old to do either effectively. are you above that after a certain age? which would be kinda ironic when you get old enough to constantly talk shit but no one can do anything since beating up a helpless klingon grandpa is considered dishonorable.

there's also plenty of MUH HONOR stuff where they go off the rails, it's not like klingons always apply logic or long term consequences to their actions.

in the end it's a moot point anyway since we're trying to fill in the blanks for something that exists first and foremost as stereotype for a tv series. in a better timeline we might get a proper sequel series with a bigger focus on them, but here we are...

 

[UnKillFill]

first episode isn't even that good imo, and iirc fox fucked with the order again, 4th episode is actually much more treklike and should be the second.

I don't know what order they aired the episodes in on fox because I don't have cable, (But I wouldn't put it past them to STILL not fucking get that airing episodes of an episodic tv show out of order only confuses people and makes them not give a shit.) I used "alternate means" to watch the show and all I can say is the order I watched them in was actually the correct order.

And you're right, the first episode of The Orville wasn't the "best show ever" or or anything, but it didn't have to be. (Compare it to the first episodes of TNG, Voyager, and even to some extent DS9.)

With that said, the first episode was (at least for me) enough to see that The Orville "isn't just Family Guy in Space" (to loosely quote @Miller .) And like all Treks (Except for maybe STD and STP), it gets better after the first episode.

I see we're still talking about Klingon Honor.

A while ago, SFDebris actually put out a really interesting video about it (He was specifically talking about Worf's personal code of honor, but he touched a lot on the view of "honor" as a whole to Klingons, and compared their honor codes to chivalry, and honor in our day in age.) It's an interesting watch if you haven't seen it before.

 

[MembersSchoolPizza]

I always thought that the authorial logic at work there was a bit ridiculous, since you'd think that a self-conscious Proud Warrior Race like the Klingons would have a fairly advanced knowledge of battlefield medicine. I mean, yeah, "today is a good day to die" and all that, but let's not do the enemy's job for them.

Yeah... We know from "Ethics" that they have very little research into certain advanced medical topics...

RUSSELL: I must admit, I was a little shocked to find the state of Klingon neurological medicine to be so primitive.
CRUSHER: It's a cultural bias. When I contacted the Klingon Medical Division, they informed me that they usually let the patient die in a case like this. As a result they've done almost no research on neurological trauma.

But I agree that it's kind of silly to assume that they wouldn't even know how to treat basic injuries that any warrior is likely to get and can be easily treated. That's carrying the concept too far.

 

[Flexo]

Have to disagree with this part. Maritza is a PTSD basket case whose brilliant plan was to impersonate a guy known to be dead (like, full public military funeral and everything), go to DS9, and get arrested and executed by the Bajorans as some sort of Manichean racial penance.

1) He had PTSD because he realized that what the cardassians did was wrong (while every other member of his race thought it was justified). That alone makes him far more sane than others.
2) Given that his culture is all about "verdict first, trial later" he probably expected the same from the bajorans. Especially for a cardassian.

(Though a different twist the story could have taken would be as an indictment of the Bajorans and their thirst for revenge, that they were willing to punish a guy who literally cannot be the person he's being judged as.)

That's... that is literally how the episode ends. The line is literally "He's a cardassian, it's reason enough." Have you... watched it?

 

[TaimuRadiu]

Has SFDebris reuploaded all of his episodes yet?

 

[WaltherPPGAY]

Honestly, I can't stand anything else Seth had done, but I love The Orville. Give it a few episodes.

I dropped it after the first season myself. As I recall 3/4 of the episodes basically boiled down to "religion bad." Just seemed terribly one-note.