Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[Negilum]

Voyager hurts because it has so much wasted potential. It's best episode retcons everything that happened in it at the end.

The show where you get 100 different takes on the Prime Directive, and each one being completely fucking stupid. Honestly, they should've just ditched StarFleet entirely and had only Marquess (is that how you spell it?) entirely, that way you can justify the amount of rule bending and gunslinging.

Instead, Janeway insisted on becoming Hernando de Soto, and like the Conquistadora she is, rampaged through uncharted land with a redman by her side, leaving a wake of horrific violence and destruction.

It doesn't help either that virtually every character is a cardboard cutout. I tried so hard to like the characters on that show - They're all awful except for maybe Janeway (when shes not in psycho mode) and the Doctor. Chakotay and Neelix are just so awful for two entirely different reasons.

Voyager's big problem was they pretty much dumped the writing team who'd just done 7 years on The Next Generation straight into another show set on a ship that they planned to run for another 7 seasons. Which means the writing up until Season 4 suffers quite a bit.

Once you hit the two parter of The Year of Hell however, things tend to smooth out, with that two parter in particular fucking shining in terms of concept and plot.

Janeway's also the worst of the Captains when it comes to Federation principles which makes some sense considering the shit she has to put her ship and crew through considering how much of a paper tiger the ship is most of the time.

Sisko's my personal favourite as I enjoy the unusual concepts that DS9 explores.

Sisko's my favourite as a captain, but I really hate him as a character. In a show that had so many fanatastic characters, Sisko always felt really dry and hollow. His stoicism never feels convincing either, like someone pretending to be deep and brooding.

Picard felt so much more genuine as the stoic and guraded captain, you could always feel like there was always a dialogue running around in his head. I never really got that same impression with Sisko.

As a captain however, he's great. His decisions always felt rational and logical, and he had a firm grasp on real-politik that often feels lacking in other captains. While other Captain rely really heavily on their crew for guidance, Sisko always feels like he knows what to do.

 

[XYZpdq]

I enjoy watching Neelix trolling Mister Vulcan

 

[Ponderous Pillock]

Sisko's my favourite as a captain, but I really hate him as a character. In a show that had so many fanatastic characters, Sisko always felt really dry and hollow. His stoicism never feels convincing either, like someone pretending to be deep and brooding.

Picard felt so much more genuine as the stoic and guraded captain, you could always feel like there was always a dialogue running around in his head. I never really got that same impression with Sisko.

As a captain however, he's great. His decisions always felt rational and logical, and he had a firm grasp on real-politik that often feels lacking in other captains. While other Captain rely really heavily on their crew for guidance, Sisko always feels like he knows what to do.

I think the main reason you get Sisko as a good captain is because he's built more as a career Starfleet man. You can see these other aspects in how he can join in on engineering solutions because he helped develop the Defiant among other ships which appear after Wolf 359.

He's come through the ranks, he's earned his spot. You don't really feel the same with say Picard or Janeway, they feel more like they've been put there. Picard more justified than Janeway, who feels very much in her first ever command and having to break nearly every rule.

I think Sisko's more of an open book than Picard though. He talks about his problems with Jake or Kasidy so a lot more of his monologue is open. Also, y'know. The entire episode "In the Pale Moonlight".

 

[Flexo]

you can also see how the hacks write the shit backwards. "we need a character die gruesome for drama, preferably established already for the "fans" and so we don't have to write a backstory", then they ask the nerd if there's a borg (because 7of9) who knows picard, who then says "well, there's hugh..." but before he can go further into it the writers already jerk each other off how clever they are. there's no discussion if it fits the character or if it would be what actual fans would want to see, it's just something to plug into an already established story, not a story based on the characters you use or something that grows organically based on the universe.

Exactly this. I wish i had more medals to give you.

I think the main reason you get Sisko as a good captain is because he's built more as a career Starfleet man. You can see these other aspects in how he can join in on engineering solutions because he helped develop the Defiant among other ships which appear after Wolf 359.

He's come through the ranks, he's earned his spot. You don't really feel the same with say Picard or Janeway, they feel more like they've been put there. Picard more justified than Janeway, who feels very much in her first ever command and having to break nearly every rule.

Like that old interview with Ron Moore, where he said the biggest problem with Voyager was that it didn't believe in itself.

Like neelix supposed to a hard edged survival expert. Except he's always cheerful and happy-go-lucky. Not that you couldn't work with that - Garak exactly proved how one could have a cheerful fellow with a hard edge to him. But Neelix didn't.

 

[The Great Chandler]

There's a point to be made when it comes to "mature" and "dark". Dark is when more morbid subject matters like death, loss, war, rape, trauma, etc. are introduced in a story, subtly or explicit. Mature is when the story respects its audience as an adult would with another adult (and should). It doesn't mean it has to be labeled for adults unless the storyteller wills it.

With STD and Picard, they're dark, but by no means juvenile with the way every melodrama and action occurs with little reason. They're equilvalent to the mindless children's videos or some edgy fanfic of a usually upbeat story. However, even a lighthearted children's cartoon can show more maturity than whatever nuTrek can come up with. Just because it's dark, doesn't mean it's mature.

 

[Judge Holden]

Hooolleee shit I just saw the clip of his evil frenchman schtick

Even in the face of what happened to star wars and the shit we just saw go down with doctor who, this may well be the worst franchise rape I have seen in quite a while

 

[Cyril Sneer]

Like that old interview with Ron Moore, where he said the biggest problem with Voyager was that it didn't believe in itself.

Like neelix supposed to a hard edged survival expert. Except he's always cheerful and happy-go-lucky. Not that you couldn't work with that - Had an exactly proved how one could have a cheerful fellow with a hard edge to him. But Neelix didn't.

Neelix's backstory is actually pretty dark: he was, apparently, a conscientious objector whose entire species (including his own family) ended up getting mostly wiped out by the enemy that he had refused to fight against, and then he spent the next few years bumming around doing whatever work he could get (often dangerous and/or criminal) to stay alive before encountering the U.S.S. Voyager, so a "sad clown" sort of personality seems appropriate enough, but somehow he always ended up coming off as more annoying than poignant. Maybe if Ethan Philiips had used a more normal sort of voice for the character, instead of sounding like something from the cast of Zoobilee Zoo, it would have worked better (for that matter, maybe if his makeup didn't make him look vaguely like something from the cast of Zoobilee Zoo it would have also helped).

 

[Flexo]

Neelix's backstory is actually pretty dark: he was, apparently, a conscientious objector whose entire species (including his own family) ended up getting mostly wiped out by the enemy that he had refused to fight against, and then he spent the next few years bumming around doing whatever work he could get (often dangerous and/or criminal) to stay alive before encountering the U.S.S. Voyager, so a "sad clown" sort of personality seems appropriate enough, but somehow he always ended up coming off as more annoying than poignant. Maybe if Ethan Philiips had used a more normal sort of voice for the character, instead of sounding like something from the cast of Zoobilee Zoo, it would have worked better (for that matter, maybe if his makeup didn't make him look vaguely like something from the cast of Zoobilee Zoo it would have also helped).

Yeah. And when they let Neelix be that guy and have some gravitas, he wasn't eye-gouging.

Star Trek (Voy): Fair Trade

Star Trek Reviews

sfdebris.com

Had they tried the way DS9 did? I think Voyager would have been the equal, or even superior. I mean they were perfectly positioned to do the "stand-alone A plot, serialized B plot" episode structure that Burn Notice perfected.

 

[UnKillFill]

Even in the face of what happened to star wars and the shit we just saw go down with doctor who, this may well be the worst franchise rape I have seen in quite a while

Maybe, but Doctor Who in particular is definitely giving it a run for its money.

 

[ZMOT]

Like neelix supposed to a hard edged survival expert. Except he's always cheerful and happy-go-lucky. Not that you couldn't work with that - Had an exactly proved how one could have a cheerful fellow with a hard edge to him. But Neelix didn't.

hm, never got that impression, more like a weasel or even roach who has just too much dumb luck, and even when he gets shit on it doesn't drag him down and he can smile about it (or doesn't let it show). he was supposed to bring some levity and comedy relief, a stoic rationalist wouldn't really fit the bill imo.

However, even a lighthearted children's cartoon can show more maturity than whatever nuTrek can come up with. Just because it's dark, doesn't mean it's mature.

that's why I can only really watch anime these days. like watching a dark comedy about zombie idols and then out of fucking nowhere deals with loss and growing up in a way that isn't infantile or stupid and without treating you like an idiot for expecting otherwise. no hamfisted message or tone deaf fart jokes BECAUSE IT'S COMEDY LAWL. it also knows what it is and never pretends otherwise or use it as a vehicle for some retarded idpol shit (not saying it's end of all media but even the worst stuff usually has more soul and effort put into it than western shit, even when it just exists to promote a mobile game or other shit).

EDIT: hoooooly shit that clip, please tell me the whole series is actually picard on it's deathbed and its his brain shutting down while coming up with all kinds of retarded shit.

 

[SteelPlatedHeart]

The Doctor was always my big reason for watching Voyager. I was a big fan of both his character and his arc. And going off Picard, I guess it’s good Seven of Nine never returned his feelings.

 

[Miller]

Hooolleee shit I just saw the clip of his evil frenchman schtick
https://youtube.com/watch?v=L4towujqjBQ
Even in the face of what happened to star wars and the shit we just saw go down with doctor who, this may well be the worst franchise rape I have seen in quite a while

You can feel how much fun Stewart is having in destroying the TNG version of his character.

 

[TaimuRadiu]

It's weird that people are so hung up on clear cut episodic vs serial.

Tell a story in one episode. Tell it in five, or ten, or twenty. Hell, take five seasons. Do all of the above in the same series, which Babylon 5 did fantastically. I don't really care, as long as they're telling a good story.

What I'm tired of is being strung along by a season of bullshit cliffhangers, only to be left with a thoroughly boring, trope-filled, half-assed conclusion.

Babylon 5 had a lot of great one off episodes you know. Nothing wrong with having an overarching plot for a season or series, but you can't jam it all in like current year Star Trek seems to be doing. Babylon 5 had to cram 2 seasons worth of story into 1 because the network it was on was falling apart at the time, then TNT bought it. And season 5 was still better than season 1. I just... didn't get to watch it at the time because I didn't have cable.

The Babylon 5 bible is worth reading. Hell, JMS's memoirs are worth reading. But this thread is about Star Trek and I am sure Null's... associates... wouldn't want us going too off topic here.

 

[The Great Chandler]

hm, never got that impression, more like a weasel or even roach who has just too much dumb luck, and even when he gets shit on it doesn't drag him down and he can smile about it (or doesn't let it show). he was supposed to bring some levity and comedy relief, a stoic rationalist wouldn't really fit the bill imo.



that's why I can only really watch anime these days. like watching a dark comedy about zombie idols and then out of fucking nowhere deals with loss and growing up in a way that isn't infantile or stupid and without treating you like an idiot for expecting otherwise. no hamfisted message or tone deaf fart jokes BECAUSE IT'S COMEDY LAWL. it also knows what it is and never pretends otherwise or use it as a vehicle for some exceptional idpol shit (not saying it's end of all media but even the worst stuff usually has more soul and effort put into it than western shit, even when it just exists to promote a mobile game or other shit).

There is a strange sincerity when it comes to anime. You can have shows that are lighthearted and have genuinely dark moments that hit you hard. Or you got shows that are dark as hell, but isn't afraid to show it's goofy side. Perhaps one thing to admire about a lot of anime is them being unafraid of being restrained to Western conventions of media, allowing them more freedom of storytelling. Of course, it doesn't mean the West doesn't have this level of freedom, but rarely it utilizes it.

 

[Cyril Sneer]

Thinking about another aspect of the series, is it just me, or do Federation humans seem distinctly less physically impressive in Star Date: Current Year vs. classic Trek?

I know they've taken fire for being smelly and uncomfortable to the point of back-strain, but one thing that the first-season TNG uniforms really did well was show off just how fit everyone in the cast was, particularly the background crewmen, who seemed to tend towards a certain physical type, that being willowy frames (both petite and leggy) for the women and tall, broad-shouldered ones for the men, with prominent jawlines and cheekbones much in evidence for both sexes.

Call it "unrealistic" if you wish, raise a hue and cry that it perpetuates "negative body-image" if you absolutely can't help yourself, but the well-proportioned physiques on display mesh rather well with the concept of a utopian future Earth, where most common social and physical ailments have been thoroughly brought under control, and most certainly for Starfleet, which after all represents the best and brightest that Mankind has to offer.*

In Current Trek, by contrast, we have this:

I'm...not even sure where to begin.

*Yeah, I know Dr. Selar is a Vulcan, but c'mon, it's Suzie Plakson: Yowza!!!

 

[Miller]

In [current year] Trek none of them are /fit/ for the job, see Tilly for example who gets fatter season after season. It also doesn't help that their uniforms are way too skinny, I really doubt that anybody could wear that all-day long. Apparently the costume designer wanted gender-neutral uniforms.

 

[Cyril Sneer]

In [current year] Trek none of them are /fit/ for the job, see Tilly for example who gets fatter season after season. It also doesn't help that their uniforms are way too skinny, I really doubt that anybody could wear that all-day long. Apparently the costume designer wanted gender-neutral uniforms.

"Gender-neutral," eh? At least when Space 1999 toyed with that idea the results were actually kind of comfy-looking.

 

[Catgirls are Love]

Some more rumors about the current state of Star Trek. Obviously, it's not sunshine and daisies.

 

[Overly Serious]

Thinking about another aspect of the series, is it just me, or do Federation humans seem distinctly less physically impressive in Star Date: Current Year vs. classic Trek?

I know they've taken fire for being smelly and uncomfortable to the point of back-strain, but one thing that the first-season TNG uniforms really did well was show off just how fit everyone in the cast was, particularly the background crewmen, who seemed to tend towards a certain physical type, that being willowy frames (both petite and leggy) for the women and tall, broad-shouldered ones for the men, with prominent jawlines and cheekbones much in evidence for both sexes.

Call it "unrealistic" if you wish, raise a hue and cry that it perpetuates "negative body-image" if you absolutely can't help yourself, but the well-proportioned physiques on display mesh rather well with the concept of a utopian future Earth, where most common social and physical ailments have been thoroughly brought under control, and most certainly for Starfleet, which after all represents the best and brightest that Mankind has to offer.*

In Current Trek, by contrast, we have this:

I'm...not even sure where to begin.

*Yeah, I know Dr. Selar is a Vulcan, but c'mon, it's Suzie Plakson: Yowza!!!

This is almost certainly deliberate casting and directing choice. Current goal is to not portray a high standard of physical fitness and attractiveness. That would be elitist and counter to current goals which are anti-aspirational. Or to be more accurate, not the aspiration to be signalled to the audience.

 

[UnKillFill]

Apparently the costume designer wanted gender-neutral uniforms.

Didn't TNG already do that?