Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[UnKillFill]

Voyager is such a comfy show because of this. Lots of variety, interesting characters, no boring series long arcs (insert Gowron glancing at all the DS9 pa'wrath shit).

BSG is so bleak and depressing I've never had the urge or desire to watch it again.

Any bit of "comfy-ness" (If that isn't a word, or I spelled it wrong, I don't care.) I got from Voyager was immediately invalidated because it quickly became obvious that literally no episode in that show mattered... Even the episodes that seemed to matter got reset by the end. There definitely *is* a balance, and I'd argue that both Voyager and Nu-BSG got it wrong, on opposite ends of the spectrum even...

But In fairness I stopped watching Nu-BSG after a certain point. I don't remember exactly when I stopped watching, but at some point that show became the early 00's version of "Orange Man Bad" ("Retarded Texan Man Bad".) Even if you agree with that, (and to be honest, yeah... I kind of do, Dubyah was a retard.) "current day" politics is *always* anathema to Science-Fiction when you're explicit about it. The whole point of the genre is to be as subtle about the connections to the current day as possible, while still making your point. If you do it correctly, people who watch your shit will make the connection on their own without you ramming it down their throats. Star Trek used to get that right, they obviously utterly fail at it now though.

STP failed there as well.

 

[ditto]

Any bit of "comfy-ness" (If that isn't a word, or I spelled it wrong, I don't care.) I got from Voyager was immediately invalidated because it quickly became obvious that literally no episode in that show mattered... Even the episodes that seemed to matter got reset by the end. There definitely *is* a balance, and I'd argue that both Voyager and Nu-BSG got it wrong, on opposite ends of the spectrum even...

Maybe it's just the exhaustion from watching so many Netflix series that never have a payoff, but the reset button is kind of a relief. It's Star Trek as junk food, really.

I don't remember exactly when I stopped watching, but at some point that show became the early 00's version of "Orange Man Bad" ("exceptional Texan Man Bad".)

In retrospect it's impressive the TNG was made during the Reagan and Bush years and never went full Reagan Man Bad. Even when they find a stereotypical Wall St. douchebag in a cryonic pod.

 

[AverageAnimeWatcher]

I think there's definitively a place for grim darkness.

The issue isn't that Grimdark is bad, But rather its the fact that it's not what people watch Star Trek for because that's not why it was made for. It's on it's very DNA to be optimistic. It's like going to a greasy fast food place for healthy food. Technically it's doable, and they might have a salad there, but you are better going somewhere dedicated to it instead of getting something even more third rate than their usual menu.

If people wanted a story about robots doing genocide on humanity as revenge they would watch Battle Star Galactica or Terminator instead of Star Trek. The issue is that Kurtzman is trying to turn Trek into something it's not.

Still, Ironically, For all the edge Kurtzman tries, he has never done something as dark and depressing as Voyager's "Course Oblivion" or DS9's "The quickening" or this from TNG:

I still feel very bad about everyone on those episodes to this day.

 

[Miller]

Why did SciFi cancel their already well acclaimed grimdark scifi show for this?

Farscape? They cancelled it so they could make Stargate Atlantis, not BSG.

 

[Flexo]

Voyager is such a comfy show because of this. Lots of variety, interesting characters, no boring series long arcs (insert Gowron glancing at all the DS9 pa'wrath shit).

Burn notice proved exactly the show Voyager could be. You had an adventure of the week in the A plot, then the arc story proceeds in the B plot. It would be easy for people to watch as they please, and reward hardcore fans with continuity.

They could have even done it better in Voayger. You just have the episode start "Captain's log. After our battle with [reference enemies from last episode], we still have a hole on decks 4, 5, and 6. Our sensors have detected ores of tritianium on the 6th world of this system. With any luck, we'll be able to repair the hull by the end of the week."

Then you have a story on that planet. Maybe there's aliens and we deal with the prime directive. Maybe there's a virus the Doctor has to cure. Maybe you just look at the difficulties the crew have trying to mine. (Can you just beam it out? Or do they have to drill?)

If you followed the show, it would feel like episodes have consequences. But if you don't, you can still understand what's going on.

 

[L50LasPak]

Still, Ironically, For all the edge Kurtzman tries, he has never done something as dark and depressing as Voyager's "Course Oblivion" or DS9's "The quickening" or this from TNG:

You raise a good point. I'm not even much of a TNG fan because I always prefered the grim, matter-of-fact nature of TOS. But, TNG despite having a reputation as having the big warm comfy Enterprise-D where everyone drinks warm milk, tea and prune juice, it still manages to get grim when it wants to. Take Yesterday's Enterprise for example:

The ships aren't moving around super fast, there aren't even that many of the enemy, there's only one that actually blows up, but its an incredibly tense scene. Helped along by the fact that you know the characters in this universe are doomed. Yeah, they do have Riker's neck get blown open, but there are more subtle deaths such as Geordi ordering everyone out of engineering and then vanishing into the smoke to try and keep the ship in one piece for just a bit longer.

You can do quite a lot with very little. With Picard, Discovery, the Abramsverse and even to some extent Enterprise there's all this shit flying around and everyone is always kung fu fighting or getting the shit beaten out of them and there's a battle or a fistfight like every single episode. It doesn't allow for chilling moments like Yesterday's Enterprise or the Parallels clip you posted above because there's no time to actually stop and think about anything.

 

[vaporubber]

I’m a dark/gritty fantasy nerd, and I always assumed that extended to sci-fi. I loved the DS9 episodes that dealt with the darker side of the Dominion war (the one where Nog loses his leg, the one when Garak tricks the Romulans), but those episodes and the entirety of the last seasons of DS9 were exceptions from the norm. As such, they were enjoyable to me because they were so novel.

When dark and gritty becomes the norm, like in Discovery or Picard, it completely destroys the universe for me. The lack of emphasis on character building - probably the result of shorter seasons meant for streaming services - also results in the shows letting their asses hang out when it comes to pacing, How am I supposed to develop connections to characters I barely know, and that barely know each other? You could go to the third or fourth seasons of TNG, DS9 or Voyager and with a few exceptions, it felt like most of the characters still barely knew each other. The slower pace of network TV back then meant that writers trusted the characters would be in it for the long haul. Along with the sense of optimism and wonder, I miss that the most.

 

[XYZpdq]

Yeah about canning Farscape it was business.
SciFi only leased Farscape, they owned Stargates.
After the deal for Farscape ran out they basically got jack shit, Stargates they got the international sales money and tons of other secondary revenue stream.

 

[RumblyTumbly]

I just watched DS9 last year not long after watching all of TNG, and it didn't feel like it was that much of a departure from it. If I knew nothing about Trek and you told me that both shows belonged in the same universe, I'd have believed you. The darker episodes stood out, but I liked some of the sillier ones too. The baseball episode is probably in my Top 5 favorites of DS9.

Also, there is something so cool about stand alone episodes that don't advance the overall story in that allow us to understand the characters better, take a break from the intense action, and we also get complete beginning, middle, and end stories that are satisfying. I mean Star Trek series in the past have featured some of the best courtroom dramas I've ever seen (The Menagerie from TOS, The Measure of a Man from TNG,and Dax from DS9) but no new show today would dare do something like that because it doesn't lend itself to action and doesn't advance some overarching story.

In a weird way, episodes about people sitting in a room talking and debating is actually more freeing than episodes that have to feature action, story progression, and a cliffhanger.

 

[The Great Chandler]

I’m a dark/gritty fantasy nerd, and I always assumed that extended to sci-fi. I loved the DS9 episodes that dealt with the darker side of the Dominion war (the one where Nog loses his leg, the one when Garak tricks the Romulans), but those episodes and the entirety of the last seasons of DS9 were exceptions from the norm. As such, they were enjoyable to me because they were so novel.

When dark and gritty becomes the norm, like in Discovery or Picard, it completely destroys the universe for me. The lack of emphasis on character building - probably the result of shorter seasons meant for streaming services - also results in the shows letting their asses hang out when it comes to pacing, How am I supposed to develop connections to characters I barely know, and that barely know each other? You could go to the third or fourth seasons of TNG, DS9 or Voyager and with a few exceptions, it felt like most of the characters still barely knew each other. The slower pace of network TV back then meant that writers trusted the characters would be in it for the long haul. Along with the sense of optimism and wonder, I miss that the most.

You're kind of spot on! I always preferred it when the darker, grittier moments occasionally pops up in an otherwise hopeful setting. It's just like how in life, you have a time to laugh and a time to cry. You get to have booze or play vidya with friends and then you have unexpected moments were you attend the funeral of a relative or personal friend. If the norm was attending a funeral to every friend you just met the first day, you'd definitely get tired of that. A balanced between those can make a story life-like in a way.

 

[Exceptionally Exceptional]

When dark and gritty becomes the norm, like in Discovery or Picard, it completely destroys the universe for me.

This. The greatest thing about the more grim episodes of Star Trek was the incredible contrast to the bright, optimistic future the show is set in. It's like a hearty slap in the face, powerful and shocking.
A good example was the episode Equinox, where the crew of the USS Equinox discarded their principals that all life is valuable and deserving of respect in order to gain a boost to their warp drive by shoving extradimensional beings into it, which caused the entire species to begin attacking the Equinox.
The scenes where they disable The Doctor's ethical subroutines were actually quite chilling. He became insanely insidious without his ethics.

 

[Judge Holden]

You know a truly miserable thought struck me today....

There is a very good chance that Picard's death at the end of this series is going to be less dignified and more embarrassing than even that of Kirk.

I mean after that.....jawdropping "evil frenchman" routine I would honestly not be surprised that Patrick Stewart in all his senility demanded that be shown picard loudly soiling himself as he dies sobbing about how his father never loved him

 

[L50LasPak]

The baseball episode is probably in my Top 5 favorites of DS9.

Huh. That's astonishing, all I've ever heard about that episode is negative things. Legit question: How much baseball knowledge does one need to have to really grasp what's going on in that episode? If you need to at least know how the game works beyond the four bases, hitting a ball with a bat and running around I can imagine nerds like me might be less than fond of it.

 

[SteelPlatedHeart]

This. The greatest thing about the more grim episodes of Star Trek was the incredible contrast to the bright, optimistic future the show is set in. It's like a hearty slap in the face, powerful and shocking.
A good example was the episode Equinox, where the crew of the USS Equinox discarded their principals that all life is valuable and deserving of respect in order to gain a boost to their warp drive by shoving extradimensional beings into it, which caused the entire species to begin attacking the Equinox.
The scenes where they disable The Doctor's ethical subroutines were actually quite chilling. He became insanely insidious without his ethics.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=dIzZ20RzAG8

The Doctor’s actor can do “detached evilness” really well.

 

[RumblyTumbly]

Huh. That's astonishing, all I've ever heard about that episode is negative things. Legit question: How much baseball knowledge does one need to have to really grasp what's going on in that episode? If you need to at least know how the game works beyond the four bases, hitting a ball with a bat and running around I can imagine nerds like me might be less than fond of it.

I felt like as long as you have a basic knowledge of the game, you should be able to follow it pretty well. If not, maybe its tougher to follow. Who knows? lol.

 

[Exceptionally Exceptional]

Huh. That's astonishing, all I've ever heard about that episode is negative things. Legit question: How much baseball knowledge does one need to have to really grasp what's going on in that episode? If you need to at least know how the game works beyond the four bases, hitting a ball with a bat and running around I can imagine nerds like me might be less than fond of it.

You actually don't need any baseball knowledge to get the episode, the point of which is mostly "Vulcans are supremacist cunts".
It's also hilarious when Sisko tells his team to do some baseball chatter and taunts and all Worf can come up with is "Death to the opposition!"

 

[L50LasPak]

I felt like as long as you have a basic knowledge of the game, you should be able to follow it pretty well. If not, maybe its tougher to follow. Who knows? lol.

You actually don't need any baseball knowledge to get the episode, the point of which is mostly "Vulcans are supremacist cunts".
It's also hilarious when Sisko tells his team to do some baseball chatter and taunts and all Worf can come up with is "Death to the opposition!"

Might have to give that one a fair shot then. I'll be honest and say I skipped over it since I never caught it on TV when I was younger.

 

[melty]

Huh. That's astonishing, all I've ever heard about that episode is negative things. Legit question: How much baseball knowledge does one need to have to really grasp what's going on in that episode? If you need to at least know how the game works beyond the four bases, hitting a ball with a bat and running around I can imagine nerds like me might be less than fond of it.

You don't need to know anything. I love the baseball episode personally, although it doesn't make a lot of sense. It's still fun. I love all the Ferengi episodes though so YMMV

 

[Uranus Pink]

Yeah about canning Farscape it was business.
SciFi only leased Farscape, they owned Stargates.
After the deal for Farscape ran out they basically got jack shit, Stargates they got the international sales money and tons of other secondary revenue stream.

İrrelevent information to a fandom who lost its collective shit on and offline when it got cancelled. And went to great pains to let the Higher-ups of Sci-Fi Channel know if they don't unfuck this situation their offline lives would become rather unpleasant very quickly.

 

[2021Murder]

You don't need to know anything. I love the baseball episode personally, although it doesn't make a lot of sense. It's still fun. I love all the Ferengi episodes though so YMMV

thats always been my favorite part of Star Trek, the cast members obsession with 200-400 years ago stuff. I would love for a live-action series that takes place in the present have the cast all happen to love Renaissance bullshit. have an entire episode of them acting out living under Cromwell's government.

If we don't find out in A Quiet Place 2 that the monster's weakness is Mozart's Symphony 25, a la Beyond's ending. I'm going to be pissed