Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[Exceptionally Exceptional]

That's something that doesn't bother me too much. Most sci-fi shows depict their aliens as having singular characteristics that are shared among the entire species, so it's nice to see other species being as diverse as humans for a change.

Well, it was explained via some or other book that the haircuts of the Romulans were part of the uniform. Think of a military crew cut. It was something you did when you joined the military, and it was considered fashionable among the civilian population as well.

Still, kind of is nice to see a bit of variety in a species. Look at the Bajorans, they were damn near as varied as humans.

 

[Meriasek]

That's one of the biggest ironies of the Borg. They hard counter most high tech weapons but could be effectively warded off with pikes and some armor. Except the Federation has advanced so far those weapons are at most replicas or museum pieces. You would think the Federation would specifically replicate equipment to fight them but no one wants to watch redshirts form into a pike wall.

I assume.

Kinda like Dune. Shields make energy weapons useless (or outright dangerous), so you go back to knives and swords and spring-powered slow projectiles. Of course, Dune did it a bit more consistently, with shields only letting through objects below a certain speed and developing the lore around that.
But Star Trek shields are all over the place, anyway. Some let physical objects through but not air (shuttle bay shields), others seem to let air through but not physical objects (holding cell shields, maybe), yet others let nothing but light through (containment shields and protection shields), but presumably would stop lasers beyond a certain energy density.
Star Trek isn't exactly Hard SciFi, and technology is just a backdrop and plot device. Everything does what it does to fit the story, and the story comes first and defines everything.

 

[King Dead]

Kinda like Dune. Shields make energy weapons useless (or outright dangerous), so you go back to knives and swords and spring-powered slow projectiles. Of course, Dune did it a bit more consistently, with shields only letting through objects below a certain speed and developing the lore around that.
But Star Trek shields are all over the place, anyway. Some let physical objects through but not air (shuttle bay shields), others seem to let air through but not physical objects (holding cell shields, maybe), yet others let nothing but light through (containment shields and protection shields), but presumably would stop lasers beyond a certain energy density.
Star Trek isn't exactly Hard SciFi, and technology is just a backdrop and plot device. Everything does what it does to fit the story, and the story comes first and defines everything.

You also have to remember that a big difference between Dune and Trek is the number of writers. Dune was all Frank Herbert (especially if you ignore the prequels/sequels that his son Brian co-wrote with Kevin J. Anderson), so it was one man developing the universe and keeping it consistent. Even when things started to get pretty damn weird in the later novels, it still fit logically within the rules of the universe he developed.

Trek has had countless writers over the years, and thus inconsistencies are bound to crop up from time to time. Like you said, though, as long as the story is good, the occasional nitpick isn't that big of a deal as long as it's pretty close on the whole. Bending the rules on occasion is fine if it's in service of an interesting story.

When the story isn't good, of course, then you can tear it to shreds. When hack frauds take the reins and ignore all the rules of the universe, you get a disjointed mess like Discovery or Picard.

 

[Meriasek]

You also have to remember that a big difference between Dune and Trek is the number of writers. Dune was all Frank Herbert (especially if you ignore the prequels/sequels that his son Brian co-wrote with Kevin J. Anderson), so it was one man developing the universe and keeping it consistent. Even when things started to get pretty damn weird in the later novels, it still fit logically within the rules of the universe he developed.

Trek has had countless writers over the years, and thus inconsistencies are bound to crop up from time to time. Like you said, though, as long as the story is good, the occasional nitpick isn't that big of a deal as long as it's pretty close on the whole. Bending the rules on occasion is fine if it's in service of an interesting story.

When the story isn't good, of course, then you can tear it to shreds. When hack frauds take the reins and ignore all the rules of the universe, you get a disjointed mess like Discovery or Picard.

Yeah, Star Trek and Dune are very different in that. And I think the goal and method of writing was done differently. In Dune (and actual Hard SciFi in general) the world and technology is thought of first, and the story is woven around how the technology would influence the world. In Star Trek, it feels more like the story and plot came first, and technology and science is then woven around the plot. Which is absolutely fine, because that's what Star Trek is and did well for the longest time. It's Soft SciFi and was always more concerned with the people and society instead of the technical details.
I used to love Star Trek so much... Discovery and Picard, well, they did not make me happy.

 

[Preferred Penne]

To bring back the First Contact discussion: If they wanted somebody to seek bloody revenge against the Borg as a contrast to Picard's stoic diplomacy, why not Guinan? The Borg just about wiped out her people so she bears a grudge, and despite her calm exterior she was fully capable of lashing out emotionally. Besides, Guinan all but disappeared after Generations, so just go ahead and let Whoopi be Whoopi.

 

[ditto]

To bring back the First Contact discussion: If they wanted somebody to seek bloody revenge against the Borg as a contrast to Picard's stoic diplomacy, why not Guinan? The Borg just about wiped out her people so she bears a grudge, and despite her calm exterior she was fully capable of lashing out emotionally. Besides, Guinan all but disappeared after Generations, so just go ahead and let Whoopi be Whoopi.

Guinan was pretty pissed at Picard for taking Hugh on board, at least initially. Then in pure TNG style she learned to stop worrying and love the borg.

 

[Michael Wade]

Yes and no. Seeing Picard up on the screen did a lot to add to the horror for the audience, and you can imagine it demoralizing the other starfleet officers to see one of their own now forced to help the enemy.

Also I just finished the TNG manga, and one of the stories in it involves the aftermath of BOBW, addressing a plot hole I never thought about. (Will try to upload some images later.)

There was a TNG manga? Nice. I read the TOS one, and it was pretty fun if weird at points.

They had an origin story for the borg queen, Star trek vs Gundam and an entire part where all the woman and men try to kill each other on the enterprise.

 

[ZMOT]

But Star Trek shields are all over the place, anyway. Some let physical objects through but not air (shuttle bay shields), others seem to let air through but not physical objects (holding cell shields, maybe), yet others let nothing but light through (containment shields and protection shields), but presumably would stop lasers beyond a certain energy density.
Star Trek isn't exactly Hard SciFi, and technology is just a backdrop and plot device. Everything does what it does to fit the story, and the story comes first and defines everything.

my headcanon was always they have different types of shields for different types of use cases. I mean they different names and stuff, so it would make sense that they work differently or do different things based on that, same way we already do. shuttle bay shield alone would need to work differently for the sake of pressure differenes alone for example.

 

[Kinotobie]

I don't like Wrath of Khan and I'm surprised it doesn't get the nitpicky treatment a lot of the other (IMO better) films get.

Also I always wanted a Star Trek anime or manga adaptation, but from an actual japanese studio because Id love to see their take on it. Would be better than what we're getting now.

 

[TaimuRadiu]

Sisko is my all time favorite Star Trek captain and had a complete story arc on the best Trek ever made, so a movie would be inevitably disappointing. It would be great to see Quark again tho, Armin Shimmerman is delightful.

Quark was in TNG AND VOY. No, seriously, he shows up in one episode for some reason. Riker thought he needed someone who had information and he calls him on the viewscreen.

 

[Kinotobie]

Sisko was great before the exceptional demigod plot

 

[Sexual Chocolate]

Sisko was great before the exceptional demigod plot

The Bajorans are pretty fuckin insufferable, and their stupid religion is one of their many annoying attributes proving Gul Dukat was right all along.

Kai Winn was great tho, Louise Fletcher is a terrific character actress. Come to think of it, DS9 had exceptionally good (or lucky) casting with people like Avery Brooks, Marc Alaimo, Andrew Robinson, Armin Shimmerman, and the great Jeffrey Combs.

 

[Kinotobie]

DS9 was good, but the Bajoran religious aspects really got stupid in the last two seasons. Sisko being essentially a demigod was just full on exceptional, and really creepy when you think about it. DS9 is a bit overrated because while it has good stuff like the Dominion War, it had stupid stuff like the Prophets and underdeveloped stuff like the Maquis that went nowhere.

Gul Dukat is one of the only good individual villains in Trek. Even Khan wasn't very good IMO (well at least in the films, I guess he was slightly more interesting in TOS).

I always just assumed Vulcans and Romulans had some sort of space North Korea thing going on with haircuts, where culturally only certain hairstyles were deemed "acceptable".

It isnt like their hair genetically grows like that.

The Vulcan bowl cut thing being universal to both Vulcans and Romulans was always kind of stupid.

 

[L50LasPak]

I don't like Wrath of Khan and I'm surprised it doesn't get the nitpicky treatment a lot of the other (IMO better) films get.

Even though Wrath of Khan is overwhelmingly one of my favorite movies I can actually see where you're coming from. I should be able to considering I've only watched it about 500 times in my life. Its cerebral, but not as devoted to it as TMP is. Its also quite grim, which may be shocking to newer Star Trek fans who are used to Picard quietly sipping tea in his ready room and not expecting someone to get their face blown off or worms crawling into people's ears.

There's a lot of plot structure I disagree with in the movie too. I will give Nick Meyer some credit though since he had to rewrite the entire script during a substantial time crunch. Stuff like Kirk pointlessly refusing to raise his shields or the hilarious bad code phrases ('hours would seem like days") really drags the movie critic in me down. Also despite having two famous scenes involving them the photon torpedoes are basically reduced to hand grenades. The movie's undeniable quality in special effects, the work of the actors, pacing and some of Nick Meyer's creativity is what elevates it beyond "just shoot the bad guy until he dies" though.

 

[Kinotobie]

Even though Wrath of Khan is overwhelmingly one of my favorite movies I can actually see where you're coming from. I should be able to considering I've only watched it about 500 times in my life. Its cerebral, but not as devoted to it as TMP is. Its also quite grim, which may be shocking to newer Star Trek fans who are used to Picard quietly sipping tea in his ready room and not expecting someone to get their face blown off or worms crawling into people's ears.

There's a lot of plot structure I disagree with in the movie too. I will give Nick Meyer some credit though since he had to rewrite the entire script during a substantial time crunch. Stuff like Kirk pointlessly refusing to raise his shields or the hilarious bad code phrases ('hours would seem like days") really drags the movie critic in me down. Also despite having two famous scenes involving them the photon torpedoes are basically reduced to hand grenades. The movie's undeniable quality in special effects, the work of the actors, pacing and some of Nick Meyer's creativity is what elevates it beyond "just shoot the bad guy until he dies" though.

I used to love Wrath of Khan, but when I watched it recently, I realized I didn't like it all that much. My problems with Wrath of Khan are A. the plot isnt interesting, it's not a science fiction plot really, its just a revenge plot and not a very good one even (I think First Contact did the revenge angle better because at least it was the hero dealing with it and not an ill defined villain who constantly does stupid things), B the Genesis Device is pure magical stupidity right up there with the Spore Drive and C it has so much stupid things that just are hard to ignore, like how the Reliant encounters Khan and manual torpedo bays and space dogfights being slow submarine battles which makes no sense. It's also really slow, which is funny because Star Trek 1 (which I feel is a better film) gets a lot of shit for its slow pacing, but Wrath of Khan has similar slow, boring sequences. I would say Star Trek 6 is the better of Nick Meyers films. I'll bite that the special effects are impressive for an 80s film, and the music is pretty good.

 

[L50LasPak]

space dogfights being slow submarine battles which makes no sense.

That's one criticism I'll disagree with since Nick Meyer's justification for it was pretty neat. The idea of the nebula was specifically introduced so the ships could dogfight at very close ranges. Trouble is that ended up carrying over to the rest of the franchise; the seems like the writers all forgot that the Mutara Nebula battle was supposed to be up close and personal because nobody can see straight.

Also I agree with your point about the score, James Horner's work on that flick is brilliant.

 

[Kinotobie]

That's one criticism I'll disagree with since Nick Meyer's justification for it was pretty neat. The idea of the nebula was specifically introduced so the ships could dogfight at very close ranges. Trouble is that ended up carrying over to the rest of the franchise; the seems like the writers all forgot that the Mutara Nebula battle was supposed to be up close and personal because nobody can see straight.

Also I agree with your point about the score, James Horner's work on that flick is brilliant.

Right, the Nebula was the reason why. I watch all the behind the scenes development stuff on the DVDs and Blu Rays, and a lot of the science advisors and production designers hated that Nick Meyer wanted slow dogfights in space, thinking it was stupid, they actually proposed the Mutara Nebula as an explanation why. It's very cool visually but I can't help but still find it silly because when you need to literally pull something like that out of your ass just to make your unrealistic battles seem believable, it kinda loses me. I'm probably being too harsh though.

 

[L50LasPak]

I'm probably being too harsh though.

Its a fair point. To be honest the only reason I think you're wrong is in this case that massive asspull really worked in the movie's favor. If ILM didn't pull off the visuals and hostility of the nebula, it would have sucked. Also probably would have been the death knell of the franchise too. That might be why that movie sticks in people's minds so much since it occupies this period where nobody was sure there were even going to be anymore movies.

 

[Kinotobie]

Its a fair point. To be honest the only reason I think you're wrong is in this case that massive asspull really worked in the movie's favor. If ILM didn't pull off the visuals and hostility of the nebula, it would have sucked. Also probably would have been the death knell of the franchise too. That might be why that movie sticks in people's minds so much since it occupies this period where nobody was sure there were even going to be anymore movies.

I agree visually it was an awesome sequence, I just think about it too logically since its sci fi and start finding it a bit unbelievable, but the Nebula at least helps. I'm not saying Wrath of Khan is a bad movie, its just one of my favorite trek films.

However the Genesis Device is just unforgivably silly. It was actually the basis for the Spore Drive, which originally IIRC was going to be a proto-Genesis Device in Bryan Fuller's scripts.

 

[Flexo]

Quark was in TNG AND VOY. No, seriously, he shows up in one episode for some reason. Riker thought he needed someone who had information and he calls him on the viewscreen.

In the episode of "Chain of Command" where Picard, Beverly, and Worf go undercover to investigate some Cardassians, they were SUPPOSED to go to DS9 and meet a contact at Quark's Bar.

Unfortunately a mix up caused DS9 to not have aired by then so they had to replace the idea with a generic bar and ferengi.

However the Genesis Device is just unforgivably silly. It was actually the basis for the Spore Drive, which originally IIRC was going to be a proto-Genesis Device in Bryan Fuller's scripts.

??? Teraforming planets is at least in keeping with Star Trek. The idea that they found a way to miniaturize and then speed up the process is one of the more logical parts in all of Trek.

The Spore Drive is literally about using mushrooms to go fast.

It's not a comparison. The Genesis device may be an error, but it's an understandable, believable error. The spore drive is not even wrong.