Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[Miller]

It would be nice to see a movie that acknowledges that being gay doesn't mean you instantly start sucking face with any random other gay person - in that way, modern Hollywood productions are almost the same as your average 50s stranger danger PSAs.

It's funny because in STD there's only one couple: the 2 gay characters (Stamets and the effeminate doctor) and everytime they kiss there's a close shot on them like if it was something brave.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

It's funny because in STD there's only one couple: the 2 gay characters (Stamets and the effeminate doctor) and everytime they kiss there's a close shot on them like if it was something brave.

Well, it is brave. It means whoever owns the ST IP might have to cut those few seconds out of the footage to market it outside central Europe and North America.

Also, didn't know that blonde guy was gay. No surprise his lover is black, need to crank that representation level up to STUNNING AND BRAVE somehow. It does kind of beg the question: Why did they write that one scene in such a way that the whiny boy lectures the only gay bridge crew character on pronouns?
Maybe they went with that, cause he might be the most understanding stereotype (due to being part of the LGBTBBQ umbrella)... maybe they wanted to express that gays need to educate themselves in the matters of gendersnowflakes. Maybe it was just coincidence, but with the weird attitudes that treat gays as traitors for being accepted in media and society, it sort of feels like it is a comment.

 

[Miller]

It's a good question, RMB said the exact same thing the other day on his podcast. I didn't notice it when I watched the episode but yeah, it's weird that the first person that Adira had to teach about her pronouns was a gay man. But then again, in the 32nd century, humanity should have moved on from those typical 2020 narcissistic behaviors like the made up genders and pronouns.

maybe they wanted to express that gays need to educate themselves in the matters of gendersnowflakes.

Yeah, it was probably a dogwhistle. This show won't age well because of the piss poor writing and the agenda behind it.

 

[Quintex96]

Section 31 was mostly homos. Star Trek was way ahead of the curve.

Section 31 would be 100% better if they never appeared outside of DS9. Every time they use Section 31 it gets progressively stupid and outlandish. They are pretty uch Cerberus from Mass Effect at this point.

 

[Standardized Profile]

Also, didn't know that blonde guy was gay. No surprise his lover is black, need to crank that representation level up to STUNNING AND BRAVE somehow. It does kind of beg the question: Why did they write that one scene in such a way that the whiny boy lectures the only gay bridge crew character on pronouns?

To remind him that gay white men have almost no status on the progressive stack.

 

[ToroidalBoat]

I remember when I saw Star Trek V for the first time as a kid, I was disappointed that "Eden" was this crappy barren desert. Then again, it makes sense because of what that place really is.

 

[XYZpdq]

I remember when I saw Star Trek V for the first time as a kid, I was disappointed that "Eden" was this crappy barren desert. Then again, it makes sense because of what that place really is.

never mind that shit, communicator walkie talkies!

 

[Uranus Pink]

Section 31 would be 100% better if they never appeared outside of DS9. Every time they use Section 31 it gets progressively stupid and outlandish. They are pretty uch Cerberus from Mass Effect at this point.

Iirc Ira Behr f'up by making Section 31 100% evil instead having them do what is necessary (good, bad, and other) for the survival of the Federation. Frankly in my opinion Section 31 never should have been more than a "trail of bread crumbs" only Julian (and the audience) notices and decides to follow it. Borrowing from Richard Bachman's (Stephen King) "the Long Walk" Julian will come across points where he will have to making moral or not choices coincidencing with either noping out or continue following the trail. To where he reaches the end of the trail and one last chance to nope out or find out who made the trail for him. Which by then Julian is either now part of Section 31 or blown his chance of ever finding who left the trail.

 

[Aqua Panda]

Just did a rewatch of Picard. As much of a rocky road it is, I'm thankful for those last scenes with Data's consciousness. That was a suprisingly touching end and goodbye for the character. It was very Trek like in understanding mortality is a important part of the human condition and helps give life meaning. It's a supringsly fitting end to the Picard/Data dynamic that developed over the 7 years of TNG.

Obviously the series itself has issues (pacing, death of the Federation utopia, out of place sudden gore, etc) but I'm hopeful season 2 gives us more of a look into how the galaxy has changed. Season 1 teases a lot about the state of the galaxy, but never sits down and answers any of these lingering questions. I really want a reckoning with Starfleet after Picard was proved right about everything.

As for the Garak being gay bit from the documentary. While I do believe Garak was likely bisexual, IMO it was one of those things that Fanon has pushed to the point Behr put it in for virtue signaling. (My only criticism of the What We Left Behind documentary is that there are a few of these moments spread throughout.) I sincerely believe Behr pulled a George Lucas in a few areas and changed his mind on a few things over the last few decades. However, it's still a good look back and the season 8 writers room is a legitimately juicy what-if.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

Obviously the series itself has issues (pacing, death of the Federation utopia, out of place sudden gore, etc) but I'm hopeful season 2 gives us more of a look into how the galaxy has changed. Season 1 teases a lot about the state of the galaxy, but never sits down and answers any of these lingering questions. I really want a reckoning with Starfleet after Picard was proved right about everything.

What in god's good name makes you optimistic a season 2 would not shit the bed even worse? All we have seen in the past couple years is that these assholes will double down on everything they do whenever someone dares telling them it didn't work.
Also, there is no "state of the galaxy" in Picard. They very obviously have only a very vague idea of what they want their setting to be and just go along with whatever comes to mind and is needed for some harebrained plot, which often creates paradoxes or contradictory infos.

 

[Miller]

As much of a rocky road it is, I'm thankful for those last scenes with Data's consciousness. That was a suprisingly touching end and goodbye for the character. It was very Trek like in understanding mortality is a important part of the human condition and helps give life meaning. It's a supringsly fitting end to the Picard/Data dynamic that developed over the 7 years of TNG.

Sure, but there's a big problem: this has already happened. Data became human at the end of Nemesis when he made the decision to sacrifice himself to save Picard and the crew of the Enterprise. There was no Picard/Data dynamic on TNG though, his best friend was Geordi LaForge. Chabon completely missunderstood the characters.

I'm hopeful season 2 gives us more of a look into how the galaxy has changed. Season 1 teases a lot about the state of the galaxy, but never sits down and answers any of these lingering questions. I really want a reckoning with Starfleet after Picard was proved right about everything.

Is there any story to tell? Picard was wrong about everything though. The Romulans were right, the synths were/are a danger to the galaxy since they've built that big beacon to contact the Reapers from another galaxy. Even at the end of the season, the tower is still there, the synths and the ex-borg are still on that planet. What is stopping them from opening that portal again? Also the Reapers can arrive in this galaxy anytime now that they know that there are a lot of organics to destroy. The synth travel ban (wow, nice allegory Chabon...) was a necessary thing and should never be lifted.

edit: by the way, did the writers ever say why the cylons synths rebelled and destroyed the shipyards on Mars (and somehow the atmosphere is still burning 15 years later lol)? Were they hacked by the russians Rumulans?

 

[Aqua Panda]

What in god's good name makes you optimistic a season 2 would not shit the bed even worse? All we have seen in the past couple years is that these assholes will double down on everything they do whenever someone dares telling them it didn't work.
Also, there is no "state of the galaxy" in Picard. They very obviously have only a very vague idea of what they want their setting to be and just go along with whatever comes to mind and is needed for some harebrained plot, which often creates paradoxes or contradictory infos.

Because I'm hopeful the show is experiencing the standard freshman growing pains most Trek shows go through. Yes, the writers didn't flesh it out, that's one of the areas I really want them to improve on going into the second season. I really think that people went into Picard expecting a TNG 2.0 situation. As fun as that could have been, the actors are just too old for it. The whole point of the show was to do a character study of a man who had great issue forming interpersonal relationships with others who slowly grew into a better man over the years during his time on the Enterprise. Only for a tragic loss to deeply hurt him near the end of his life. The whole overarching narrative of the season was him finally accepting he lost his friend and getting to say goodbye.

There was no Picard/Data dynamic on TNG though, his best friend was Geordi LaForge. Chabon completely misunderstood the characters.

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to respectfully disagree hard with the idea of no Picard/Data dynamic in TNG. To the point I have to ask, when was the last time you watched the show? There are numerous examples of Data and Picard talking about Data's path and view on humanity. Big examples include the Tempest and Chritmas Carol plays in TNG, the stellar chartography scene in Generations, the deleted scene in Picard's quarters in Nemesis, I can go on.

Yes, Nemesis works as Data ultimately "achieving humanity" and dying at the end of it. However, the whole point of the Picard season was that Picard never really got to have closure on the relationship. He never got to say goodbye and it obviously haunted him over the next two decades.

As for the Reapers, I'm expecting them to eventually come back somewhere down the line. Why are you judging the show as a whole when it has only had 1 out of 3 seasons? (Also, the Mars situation was explained at the attack igniting the atmosphere. It's a real world concept that when the atmosphere gets hot enough, it can lead to a massive planet wide chain reaction of all the oxygen in the air combusting. Remeber that Enterprise episode where the are sabotaged and accidentally ignite a planets atmosphere when heading down to a new planet?)

As I've said previously in this thread, Discovery is the only one of the recent new Trek shows that I think is actually bad. (I legit think Lower Decks is underrated.) I'm all for due criticism, but the standard gatekeeping going on with the Kurtzman Treks is really reminiscent on the hate TNG got when it was announced or Enterprise had over its 4 season run.

 

[Miller]

Why are you judging the show as a whole when it has only had 1 out of 3 seasons?

Because I've watched Discovery and I know that STPicard is just another Discovery, that the questions I (we?) have about the first season won't matter in season 2, just like the writers "kinda forgot" about Maddox after a couple of episodes, how they also kinda forgot about Dr Jurati killing Maddox, or the two romulans and the dog after 3 episodes. The slight difference is that the first season of Picard was a "Last Jedi" take on the character (see this op-ed published on the official website). Just like Discovery, there is no story planned for Picard. If you enjoy the show, then good for you.
I didn't want "Picard" to be TNG 2.0, I just didn't want another show about one character (by the way, Picard isn't even about Jay-El, it's about Dajh/Soji).

I'm all for due criticism, but the standard gatekeeping going on with the Kurtzman Treks is really reminiscent on the hate TNG got when it was announced or Enterprise had over its 4 season run.

Gatekeeping is necessary if you want something to stay coherent. Gatekeeping doesn't mean that you refuse anything new. Once you let the jocks and the fake geeks/nerds in, they will take over a niche genre and its community and turn them into a toxic place within a few years. If you don't gatekeep, these people will take over and force you out.

Kurtzman is not a Star Trek fan, he's a poser.

 

[The Great Chandler]

Because I'm hopeful the show is experiencing the standard freshman growing pains most Trek shows go through. Yes, the writers didn't flesh it out, that's one of the areas I really want them to improve on going into the second season. I really think that people went into Picard expecting a TNG 2.0 situation. As fun as that could have been, the actors are just too old for it. The whole point of the show was to do a character study of a man who had great issue forming interpersonal relationships with others who slowly grew into a better man over the years during his time on the Enterprise. Only for a tragic loss to deeply hurt him near the end of his life. The whole overarching narrative of the season was him finally accepting he lost his friend and getting to say goodbye.

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to respectfully disagree hard with the idea of no Picard/Data dynamic in TNG. To the point I have to ask, when was the last time you watched the show? There are numerous examples of Data and Picard talking about Data's path and view on humanity. Big examples include the Tempest and Chritmas Carol plays in TNG, the stellar chartography scene in Generations, the deleted scene in Picard's quarters in Nemesis, I can go on.

Yes, Nemesis works as Data ultimately "achieving humanity" and dying at the end of it. However, the whole point of the Picard season was that Picard never really got to have closure on the relationship. He never got to say goodbye and it obviously haunted him over the next two decades.

As for the Reapers, I'm expecting them to eventually come back somewhere down the line. Why are you judging the show as a whole when it has only had 1 out of 3 seasons? (Also, the Mars situation was explained at the attack igniting the atmosphere. It's a real world concept that when the atmosphere gets hot enough, it can lead to a massive planet wide chain reaction of all the oxygen in the air combusting. Remeber that Enterprise episode where the are sabotaged and accidentally ignite a planets atmosphere when heading down to a new planet?)

As I've said previously in this thread, Discovery is the only one of the recent new Trek shows that I think is actually bad. (I legit think Lower Decks is underrated.) I'm all for due criticism, but the standard gatekeeping going on with the Kurtzman Treks is really reminiscent on the hate TNG got when it was announced or Enterprise had over its 4 season run.

Picard is still a terrible show like STD all around and Lower Decks is just mediocre compared to the two.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

Because I'm hopeful the show is experiencing the standard freshman growing pains most Trek shows go through. Yes, the writers didn't flesh it out, that's one of the areas I really want them to improve on going into the second season.

We've seen rocky and rough starts, sure, but Picard was not a rough start with a few kinks to work out, it was an abomination that took great pains to shit on anything that was beloved about Star Trek in the past. Not just in passing, not just out of ignorance, but deliberately, cause the extend and precision with which they did it is nothing that just kinda sorta happens without someone doing it on purpose.
And we *know* that Picard was meant to take Jean-Luc off his "white privilege" high horse, @Miller already linked that infamous post and how it shows what their aims were.

I really think that people went into Picard expecting a TNG 2.0 situation. As fun as that could have been, the actors are just too old for it.

Well. I don't think so. I think people would have liked another TNG-style show and given that most fans are fed up with STD, that would have been a smart move, but the assholes in charge of the IP decided to double down on their atrocious politics and their vapid ideas and shat out a show that didn't give fans what they want... and what they wanted wasn't "TNG 2.0" it was "a Star Trek show that doesn't suck".

This whole fart-sniffing argument you use here has been used dozens of times to defend TLJ and it was just as inanely vapid and moronic then as it is now.
No one mopes about STP not being TNG, people have very real gripes about the plot, characters, character interactions, structure, continuity, everything and you going "durr expectations" does nothing to negate that.
People aren't mad that STP is "different", people are mad cause STP is trash with no redeeming qualities.

The whole point of the show was to do a character study of a man who had great issue forming interpersonal relationships with others who slowly grew into a better man over the years during his time on the Enterprise.

It's not a character study by any stretch of the definition of character study. They switched key aspects of what and who Picard is in order for their narrative about taking this pesky old white man down a peg. It's a dozen or so episodes of watching an old man bumbling around with shitty, potty mouthed characters doing things that do not belong in a Star Trek show, that betrays many of the core aspects of ST, not as a smart spin on the franchise, not as sort of taking the concept and push it to its limits (like DS9), but rather they wanted some white haired bitch call Jean Luc a stupid motherfucker to his face, so they wrote that in.

Only for a tragic loss to deeply hurt him near the end of his life. The whole overarching narrative of the season was him finally accepting he lost his friend and getting to say goodbye.

Data was never his friend and Picard barely treated him as a crewman at times. What you write makes no sense to me.

Why are you judging the show as a whole when it has only had 1 out of 3 seasons?

If I gave you a tub full of rancid dog turds, how many spoonfulls do you have to eat before you are allowed to state that you do not enjoy eating rancid dog turds?
The show was complete and utter garbage out the gates, anything Kurtzman has farted out was terrible. People are allowed to judge that, they do not have to subjugate themselves to suffer through more of this shit to meet an arbitrary milestone at which point it is magically ok to voice dislike.

The show sucked. Everything about it (except the effects) sucked. People are allowed to judge it based on what they saw of it.

 

[Flexo]

To be honest if there was any missed opportunity it would have been for Garak to be sexually attracted to Bashir but have Bashir not be reciprocating. I can imagine that's probably a situation that plays out a fairly regular basis and could be a decent source of drama. Not really my cup of tea but an even handed writer could turn that into a compelling source of character tension.

Of course with current year showing a gay guy striking out with a guy who it turns out isn't interested in a gay relationship would probably be shit all over and ripped apart as homophobic, even though that situation is more likely to play out in reality these days.

FYI that was Harry Kim's story in the Voyager book "Pathways."

Pathways

The untold story of Captain Janeway's crew! Pathways is a Pocket VOY novel written by Jeri Taylor. Published by Pocket Books, it was first released in hardback in August 1998.

memory-alpha.fandom.com

He has a best friend he hung out with that becomes totally broken hearted when Harry finds his girl. Turns out the friend was totally gay for him and thought Harry Kim was too.

 

[L50LasPak]

It's a real world concept that when the atmosphere gets hot enough, it can lead to a massive planet wide chain reaction of all the oxygen in the air combusting.

For one thing, this has never been conclusively proven as a thing that can actually happen for obvious reasons. The most famous example was an infamous miscalculation that atomic bombs could set the atmosphere on fire; a miscalculation because it did not include for heat decay in the equation. The level of heat required to set Earth's atmosphere on fire is orders of manitude hotter than the sun and any weapon capable of generating it would probably remove a continent or two in the process. With that kind of force there probably wouldn't be much of an atmosphere left to set on fire after the blast.

Present day Mars has very little of an atmosphere to speak of, and of that its almost entirely carbon dioxide. If a future Mars were to have an atmosphere capable of being lit on fire, it would have to be due to terraforming. If there were people living on Mars out in the open, evidently the atmosphere had to be Earth-like, so logically it would be as difficult to ignite the entire thing as Earth's would.

One could say the atmosphere caught fire due to a buildup of some kind of flammable gases, perhaps even as a byproduct of construction on the surface, but that assumes Starfleet took one hell of a drop in IQ to allow that to happen. Especially considering their previously strongest rival, the Klingons, had their empire virtually collapse due to a planetary body in their capital system exploding due to a similar lack of safety precautions. We know Starfleet has the technology to avoid this situation, and Starfleet has seen at least one major empire suffer greatly from a mishap that took out an entire planet's surface, so why would they or all people allow a buildup of these dangerous materials, on one of their most strategic technological and industrial sites no less?

Little details like this are another example of the show's cheap writing. There's not much thought put into the plots and illogical things happen to create tragedies where there shouldn't have been any. Its too obviously contrived.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

One could say the atmosphere caught fire due to a buildup of some kind of flammable gases, perhaps even as a byproduct of construction on the surface, but that assumes Starfleet took one hell of a drop in IQ to allow that to happen.

I mean, it is set in the STP timeline...

Turns out the friend was totally gay for him and thought Harry Kim was too.

He turned down hanky panky with Seven of Nine, dude might not be gay, but he ain't straight either.

 

[Quintex96]

He turned down hanky panky with Seven of Nine, dude might not be gay, but he ain't straight either.

Even though she was still 60% borg at the time, she was still too much woman for him. So she crushed his infantile fascination with her there and then. Proving that when push came to shove that Harry would still fold like a piece of paper. The dude got cucked by fucking Neelix of all people, granted it was a Klingon woman but the point still stands.

 

[Exceptionally Exceptional]

Even though she was still 60% borg at the time, she was still too much woman for him. So she crushed his infantile fascination with her there and then. Proving that when push came to shove that Harry would still fold like a piece of paper. The dude got cucked by fucking Neelix of all people, granted it was a Klingon woman but the point still stands.

Didn't Harry want to get rid of the Klingon chick, tho? I remember watching that episode recently and Neelix specifically steals the Klingon chick's attention away from Harry because he was terrified of being fucked to death.

It also gave me a bit of respect for Neelix because Klingon chicks are fucking beasts in the bedroom. Little bastard is tougher than he looks.