Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[UnKillFill]

I honestly never really saw Dukat as a villain in the earlier seasons of DS9. To me, he came across more like a smug asshole who occasionally popped in to annoy Sisko's crew.

You know, when you put it that way...
Dukat was basically Sisko's 'Q' at the beginning of DS9. (Which is ironic because Sisko punched actual Q early on in the series.) It obviously isn't a total 1 to 1 translation, and it's even more obvious that the dynamic is long gone by the end of the series, but I still think the comparison fits up until the point where they ruined Dukat's character.

 

[Drag-on Knight 91873]

You know, when you put it that way...
Dukat was basically Sisko's 'Q' at the beginning of DS9. (Which is ironic because Sisko punched actual Q early on in the series.) It obviously isn't a total 1 to 1 translation, and it's even more obvious that the dynamic is long gone by the end of the series, but I still think the comparison fits up until the point where they ruined Dukat's character.

Sisko's Tomalok. Long running nemesis that exchanges diplomatic repartee.

 

[Captain Marvelous]

Trying to read Memory Beta scrambled my brain.

The comic summary is also on the Transformers wiki if you're still interested.

 

[Van Darkholme]

Why hasn’t there been a really great Star Trek game yet? There’s been plenty of great Star Wars games but I can only think of a few okay ST games. Just rip off mass effect or KOTOR and call it Star Trek.

Elite Force 1 and 2 weren't bad and are running on the Quake 3 engine, so chances are they will still work right out of the box nowadays.

 

[Captain Syrup]

I honestly never really saw Dukat as a villain in the earlier seasons of DS9. To me, he came across more like a smug asshole

He had moments of Tywin Lannister brilliance. But mostly, he came off a loser whom no one respected; neither Sisko or his own government.

 

[UnKillFill]

Sisko's Tomalok. Long running nemesis that exchanges diplomatic repartee.

Come on now... that's a *massive* insult to Dukat (at his best, obviously).

Tomolok was a Romulan 'literally who?', who's only even relevant because he was *technically* a recurring character- I just looked it up, he only appeared in 4 episodes of TNG. One of those times it explicitly wasn't even really Tomolok, it was an alien kid fucking with Riker's mind, and another was "All good things," where Q was fucking with Picard's mind, so that might not even be real either...
I did not realize, and in retrospect feel bad for not previously knowing, that Tomolok was played by Andreas Katsulas- i.e. G'Kar from Babylon 5. That doesn't change my opinion of Tomolok though, he's still a Romulan nobody.

IMHO, you would have been more accurate saying that Dukat was Sisko's 'Sela' (she at least showed up more than Tomolok did, and it was really her all of those times.) but that obviously wouldn't be correct either.

I will however express my original point more concisely: Q/Dukat were both able to *recurringly* show up on TNG/DS9, pretty much whenever they felt like doing so, despite never really being welcome on the ship/station, and they both frequently fucked with not only the captain/commander(who later also became a captain) but also various members of the crew in different episodes.

 

[Captain Syrup]

But yeah, the Space Satan stuff was easily the worst part of the final arc of that show.

Granted, Alaimo kicks ass in these scenes because he is free from the makeup and space marine armor.

Ungranted: look at Salome Jens and the complexities she brought to her scenes. The scenes in the Fire Caves are sadly deficient.

 

[UnKillFill]

And I will say it again, I'm comparing Q to *early* Dukat. I like DS9, but I'd never claim that it's perfect. They fucked up Dukat's character by the end. But it took them several seasons to do that.

 

[UnKillFill]

But to be fair, I'm reasonably certain that STP is about to fuck up Q significantly more than DS9 fucked up Dukat by the end...

 

[UnKillFill]

It almost could have worked. Dukat hates Sisko and Bajorans, so seeing Dukat turn himself into both (Pah Wraith Emissary) was kind of spooky. Alaimo kicks ass in these scenes because he is free from the makeup and space marine armor.

Hot take: Louise Fletcher is a mediocre actress. No matter how you slice it. I don't care if she won an Oscar. Alaimo is above her weight class.

And spare me the thought of those two getting it on.

So we end up in Mount Doom, and Dukat suffers possibly the most cliche villain death ever seen, while Louise has a half-assed redemption we don't care about. Look at Salome Jens and the complexities she brought to her scenes. The scenes on Bajor are sadly deficient.

Dukat didn't hate Sisko for most of DS9. He actually (in his own crazy fucking mind at least) literally thought that they were friends for most of it. Yeah they fucked Dukat up a lot by the end, but for most of the series, I do not believe that Dukat actually 'hated' Sisko at least until he got possessed by the pah-wraiths.

Hot Take: I don't believe I've ever seen Louise Fletcher act outside of DS9, but I hated Kai Wynn from the beginning... The actress did her job perfectly imho, she was a like a wrestling heel, you're supposed to hate her, and I did.

I do agree though, the ending of DS9 was immensely disappointing. All the more reason why I want to see Sisko come back and make it right.

 

[Miller]

Isn't the reason the writers made Dukat become a literal demon because they thought they made him too sympathetic and wanted to backpedal? I maintain that he should have died in that cult episode, would have been the perfect end for his character.

Dukat was written as an antagonist for 3/4 of the show. He only became a one-dimensional villain because Ira Steven Behr was seething over the fan-mail (people prefered Dukat over Sisko).

 

[UnKillFill]

Dukat was written as an antagonist for 3/4 of the show. He only became a one-dimensional villain because Ira Steven Behr was seething over the fan-mail (people prefered Dukat over Sisko).

I've said it before, and I'll say it again- Ira Steven Behr never actually understood the show that he somehow "ran" for 7 years. It was actually amazing that DS9 still managed to be good, entirely despite his efforts (or lack thereof). Even worse, more than 2 decades later, he clearly *still* doesn't understand why DS9 was such a great show. It's almost like being a social justard is a mental disorder. Oh wait, yeah it totally is.

 

[Miller]

It's almost like being a social justard is a mental disorder. Oh wait, yeah it totally is.

Exactly. People think that he was in charge but I believe Michael Piller was overseeing everything (until he got cancer).
In one of the interviews for the TNG remaster, Behr was complaining about not being able to show gay people holding hands on Risa.

 

[ditto]

"Yesterday's enterprise" but in japanese lol.

You've not experienced Star Trek until you have seen it in the original Japanese.

 

[Captain Syrup]

The actress did her job perfectly imho, she was a like a wrestling heel, you're supposed to hate her

I've heard that argument used for "THE GAMMME-UH" and Nipple H. So it isn't very persuasive.

You've not experienced Star Trek until you have seen it in the original Japanese.

Ira Steven Behr never actually understood the show that he somehow "ran" for 7 years.

He was a piece of a whole. That's why he brought Ron, Rene, Robert and Michael (in spirit) back for the doc. Otherwise, it would be McCartney without Lennon.

 

[polyester]

"and I still have four months leave coming." -- Jadzia Dax in DS9 5e21

wow , how much vacation time do these people get?
And why are they nonetheless always present when the plot needs them?

 

[Antarctic Hellbeast]

"and I still have four months leave coming." -- Jadzia Dax in DS9 5e21

wow , how much vacation time do these people get?
And why are they nonetheless always present when the plot needs them?

One of the many inconsistencies you get with many people working on a project. Especially without the advanced tech helping neatly organize things we take for granted today with actual touchscreen devices that were inspired by the show.


Still have no idea why they had that satan shit at the end of the show. Thought that Gul Dukat's arc ended quite nicely before that.

Then Sisko becomes Bajoran space jesus who rose again on the 7th moon or something and the baseball is still on his desk to this day. Regardless of whoever was called in to replace him on DS9.

 

[Standardized Profile]

Why hasn’t there been a really great Star Trek game yet? There’s been plenty of great Star Wars games but I can only think of a few okay ST games. Just rip off mass effect or KOTOR and call it Star Trek.

25th Anniversary and Judgment Rites were great. I hope some day someone rescues the Secret of Vulcan Fury assets and builds a game out of them, or an animation or something. DC Fontana and John Meredyth Lucas wrote it, the actors recorded their lines, it's basically a bunch of lost TOS episodes sitting on an obsolete hard drive somewhere, decaying into bit rot.

(To be fair, their performances in 25th Anniversary and Judgment Rites weren't always great. I remember one take where Kelley stumbled over the words and sighed. That was the take they chose to put in the game.)

"and I still have four months leave coming." -- Jadzia Dax in DS9 5e21

wow , how much vacation time do these people get?

Dax is like 3 or 4 different Starfleet officers, and the oldest one has been around for more than a century. She's got to be accruing leave at a phenomenal rate.

 

[Antarctic Hellbeast]

25th Anniversary and Judgment Rites were great. I hope some day someone rescues the Secret of Vulcan Fury assets and builds a game out of them, or an animation or something. DC Fontana and John Meredyth Lucas wrote it, the actors recorded their lines, it's basically a bunch of lost TOS episodes sitting on an obsolete hard drive somewhere, decaying into bit rot.

(To be fair, their performances in 25th Anniversary and Judgment Rites weren't always great. I remember one take where Kelley stumbled over the words and sighed. That was the take they chose to put in the game.)



Dax is like 3 or 4 different Starfleet officers, and the oldest one has been around for more than a century. She's got to be accruing leave at a phenomenal rate.

Anything is possible.
Though likely sitting on a disk somewhere in the Interplay vaults.

 

[UnKillFill]

"and I still have four months leave coming." -- Jadzia Dax in DS9 5e21

wow , how much vacation time do these people get?
And why are they nonetheless always present when the plot needs them?

For that matter, why does pretty much every thing of interest happen when most if not all of the senior staff are all on the bridge? You'd think there would be at least one Romulan attack while Lieutenant Fuckwad McLiterallyWho was sitting in the big seat.