Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[polyester]

You could either hope that you find suitable food, water, and shelter on a world you know nothing about that could potentially contain hazards your tricorder cannot detect, or you could bring your own shit and be absolutely sure you'll survive.

Yeah, but the slogan is "To boldly go..." and not "To cautiously go..."

Also, whenever they did take a fully-stocked shuttlecraft down to the new planet and wore encounter suits and whatnot, those things inevitably failed for plot reasons...

Spoiler: Voyager 4e24 Demon

...so maybe they just learned not to bother?

 

[Never Scored]

I watched these 2009-2016 remakes for the first time over the last week or so. TOS and the original movies are my favourite Trek, so I've been putting off watching these for obvious reasons.

Not great but not as bad as I expected. I'd actually rank them pretty close to the last two TNG movies. Not very good, but OK. I was expecting a shitshow closer to Piccard.

-I thought the third one was the best and felt closest to TOS structurally.

-They are extremely melodramatic to the point of absolute comedy. Especially Spock who apparently has trouble suppressing his emotions now after we've seen him get his legs broken without flinching in TOS.

-They made Uhura a complete bitch for like no reason.

-The guy that played Bones was pretty good. The guy who played Kirk improved throughout the trilogy.

-I'm not usually one of these "muh whitewashing" types, but fucking lol at Benedict Cumberbatch playing a guy whose name is fucking Khan Noonien Singh. It doesn't help that I genuinely hate Cumberbatch's fucking face.

 

[Captain Syrup]

Which is why I found the Cylon need for God so much fedora-tipping pseudo philosophy. Cylons knew who created them! What's with the Christianity push?

They were trying to draw an allegory to the war on terror, but the Cylons are such weak and poorly-written characters. Bush wanted an oil-rich base with which to encircle Iran. Why is Cavil occupying New Caprica? Speaking of Cavil, he seems to lack any sort of leadership qualities.

By now, you can tell I've made no bones about my distaste for the Cylons as villains. There is nothing to set them apart from any rogue A.I. you've seen.

General flaws in writing became noticeable with the extremely poor use of the Final Five MacGuffins in season 3

The "subvert expectations"/"Mystery Box" fetish.

It took tons of these shows before people finally caught on that almost all of them were just horses on a Merry-Go-Round.

It doesn't help that I genuinely hate Cumberbatch's fucking face.

When it comes to Cumberbatch, I'm blinded by hatred and always have been.

He gave an interview saying Sherlock is a sex god, because he can play a clitoris like a violin.

"I’d know exactly how to please a woman, I’d know exactly where to put my fingers, where to put my tongue, where to put my – his I should say – his fingers, his tongue. Think about violinists, think about what they can do with their fingers. And I’d know exactly how to get that person into it, and get pleasure out of making that person feel pleasure to the point that I probably wouldn’t even have to enter. But when I did it would be explosive."

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

I never really got into the new BSG and it seems all over the place by what I read above...
I knew it was kinda weird with religious overtones here and there, but it seems they also tried to be political and turned the show into quite a mess.

 

[Standardized Profile]

I like new BSG it is good. It's not perfect, but I'd rather rewatch it than most Trek series.

 

[horni]

What other sci-fi shows from the 90's/early 2000's would you recommend?
Whenever there is mention of DS9, Babylon 5 usually follows - unfortunately I know next to nothing about this series and never watched it. I remember Space: Above and Beyond from that time, which ended in such a trollish way I am mad about this 25 years later. What other series are worth seeing for TNG/DS9 enthusiast?

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

What other sci-fi shows from the 90's/early 2000's would you recommend?
Whenever there is mention of DS9, Babylon 5 usually follows - unfortunately I know next to nothing about this series and never watched it. I remember Space: Above and Beyond from that time, which ended in such a trollish way I am mad about this 25 years later. What other series are worth seeing for TNG/DS9 enthusiast?

Farscape has a pretty good reputation.
Lexx seems a bit trashy but might be fun (dunno, never watched all of it tbh).
Andromeda might be worth a shot, too. For all of Joss Whedon's faults and this abominal trend to ape his writing, Firefly is very good (but I assume you already watched that).
With newer shows, The Expanse is an absolute must.

If you're into anime, Planetes is a great near-future hard-sci-fi show (it has some really silly moments, but when it does serious stuff and drama, it's absolutely glorious dat compass).

And I agree, Space: Above and Beyond was a great show with a downer ending. They wanted to do a second season that never was made.

 

[Jesus Swept]

Voyager kinda did that with Basics I & II when the Kazon stranded them on that planet and stole the ship. I don't think anyone even got dirty and the biggest complaint was Neelixes worse-than-average cooking.

ENT also did it in episode 2 but it quickly turned into monster of the week iirc

If I remember right, Neelix was put in charge of the scavenging team, and then immediately got one of the crew eaten by a giant monster. I'd definitely call that worse than average cooking.

 

[Starscreams Cape]

What other sci-fi shows from the 90's/early 2000's would you recommend?
Whenever there is mention of DS9, Babylon 5 usually follows - unfortunately I know next to nothing about this series and never watched it. I remember Space: Above and Beyond from that time, which ended in such a trollish way I am mad about this 25 years later. What other series are worth seeing for TNG/DS9 enthusiast?

B5 was definitely a good show. The special effects unfortunately are painfully dated, but the characters and story easily compensate for it. The first season was a bit rocky, so much so that they switched the lead to Bruce Boxleitner. If you are watching S1 and getting ready to tap out, at least skip to S2 and see if that grabs you.

 

[L50LasPak]

Except, weirdly enough, for The Cage. Sure, the actors are just hauling empty boxes and stuffing their jackets with newspaper, but it looked like they were prepared.

I sometimes daydream about what the show would have been like if it had taken on the much harder SF angle of The Cage, but I think part of the reason it was so popular was that the show proper didn't come off as too heady.

For all of Joss Whedon's faults and this abominal trend to ape his writing, Firefly is very good

All of the episodes of Firefly written by Joss Whedon are horrible. Ben Eglund wrote all of the good ones, except for Shindig which was written by two people I've never heard of and is arguably the best episode. The ones written by Joss are terrible and the ones where he's collaborating with Tim Minear are just plain torture.

 

[horni]

special effects unfortunately are painfully dated

These were done on Amiga computers, so it is an added nostalgia value for me: I grew up with Amiga, watched tons of demoscene and so on. As a DS9 fanboy I want to watch Babylon 5 next, then probably Battlestar Galactica.

Firefly

I think it's an enjoyable show with some funny moments, but definitely not as good as some people make it to be. And the movie was terrible in my opinion, typical Whedon: create some quippy characters and lighthearted fun, wait for the execs to give you free hand, try to shoehorn cheap drama and "serious" tones, end with janky and baffling end product, rinse and repeat.

 

[Antarctic Hellbeast]

Farscape has a pretty good reputation.
Lexx seems a bit trashy but might be fun (dunno, never watched all of it tbh).
Andromeda might be worth a shot, too. For all of Joss Whedon's faults and this abominal trend to ape his writing, Firefly is very good (but I assume you already watched that).
With newer shows, The Expanse is an absolute must.

If you're into anime, Planetes is a great near-future hard-sci-fi show (it has some really silly moments, but when it does serious stuff and drama, it's absolutely glorious dat compass).

And I agree, Space: Above and Beyond was a great show with a downer ending. They wanted to do a second season that never was made.

Chiggy von richtofen was a good arc.


Didnt really get that one mission where they wipe one of the tank's memories and he goes on a black op for something, has a crisis of conscience when he kills the one chiggy who wasnt going to immediately kill him and then tears up the promotion paper to lieutenant over it before fucking off back into a pond.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

The show ended because the higherups didnt want to let the Plebs have good entertainment and to question their legal meat grinder as an excuse to try out their new toys without repercussion.

Nah, it was just an immensely expensive show with large sets and (at the time) impressive CGI, which didn't have the return on investment that the moneygivers expected and thus it was canceled. It's the fate of many sci-fi shows. They are usually significantly more expensive to make than, say, a cop drama set in modern times. Even The Expanse almost got axed 2 seasons in.
Shows like SG1 were successful, cause literally every planet looks like a forest near Vancouver for some reason, so they didn't have to shell out a shitton of money for sets all the time, and the ones they had were small in size, so they didn't produce much upkeep/blocked a lot of space either.

 

[Internet_Loner]

B5 was definitely a good show. The special effects unfortunately are painfully dated, but the characters and story easily compensate for it. The first season was a bit rocky, so much so that they switched the lead to Bruce Boxleitner. If you are watching S1 and getting ready to tap out, at least skip to S2 and see if that grabs you.

Fans and HBO are trying to fix this with AI upscaling, remasters.

 

[Antarctic Hellbeast]

Nah, it was just an immensely expensive show with large sets and (at the time) impressive CGI, which didn't have the return on investment that the moneygivers expected and thus it was canceled. It's the fate of many sci-fi shows. They are usually significantly more expensive to make than, say, a cop drama set in modern times. Even The Expanse almost got axed 2 seasons in.
Shows like SG1 were successful, cause literally every planet looks like a forest near Vancouver for some reason, so they didn't have to shell out a shitton of money for sets all the time, and the ones they had were small in size, so they didn't produce much upkeep/blocked a lot of space either.

Money does make a lot more sense than the small vestiges of Info left behind on that franchise.
Was shaping up to be basically the Colonial marines from Aliens with all the comics it had apparently.

 

[XYZpdq]

B5 is pretty great for seasons 2-4, a little clunky in the rest but okay, loses some of its charm now that Lord Of The Rings isn't so obscure

the rest of these opinions are based on "I saw some random stuff sporadically by way of friends who were all up on it"
Farscape and Lexx is dank shit
Firefly is cool as long as you haven't seen Outlaw Star, if you have it loses a lot of its charm because even being generous and assuming it wasn't _explicitly_ ripping off OS, it hits a lot of similar notes and not as well
SG1 is fairly solid, especially if you're into military shit. I never went out of my way to watch it but one of my smoking buddies in the day was a big military nerd who had it as one of his top "background noise" picks and I can't think of a time it was on that I was ever bored or annoyed by it.

also iirc it's only season 1 of B5 which was on an Amiga, and AKSHUALLY it was a Video Toaster which is like the 32x to the Amiga's Genesis, and was a workhorse of NTSC tv production for much of the 90s
like, back in the day Local Cable's program list scroll computer would sporadically crash and reboot and it was an Amiga running VT

 

[Drag-on Knight 91873]

They were trying to draw an allegory to mideast terrorism but the Cylons were never mistreated by humans, at least not to the same extent.

Modern science arose from Arabic studies. They had a rich civilization. The Cylons have zip. They were created in the image of their makers. (Literally, in the cases of Cavil and the Five.) But the Cylons believe that humans must pay for unspecified crimes, presumably against man and nature.

This isn't really explored, and the Cylons wind up having no motive for anything they do. They swagger around in clone bodies that have no mechanical parts. It is even stated at one point that they are indistinguishable from humans down to the cellular level. If they hate humans so much, then why the fuck are their leaders humanoid? And why did they worship the first humanoid cylon (in Razor) as a "god"?

Then Ron tries to spin it around and turn the Cylons into Bush-led occupied forces. This didn't click for me, either, because Bush wanted an oil-rich base with which to encircle Iran. The Cylons want to wipe the Colonials off the map. Why are they occupying New Caprica and abusing prisoners to no good end?

When I think back to the Bush years, I remember the conflict being boiled down to "they hate our freedom and they hate America." Ron is trying to humanize the Iraqis by putting the Colonists in a similar situation. But now it's slanted too far in the opposite direction.

At long last, we find out that Cavil is a "petulant child" (their words) who wants revenge for being imprisoned in a human body. He's the only Cylon to express this kind of angst. And it comes in the eleventh hour out of nowhere.

We were talking before about TV's need to elevate the most popular villain to a kind of Darth Vader status.

And Cavil is a glaring example. The guy has no business leading the Cylon fleet. He seems to lack any sort of leadership qualities and mostly hangs around, just so he can cause as much mayhem as possible. Including fucking his daughter (Ellen).


It was apparent way before that, with Baltar having a vision of Adama killing his baby and plotting revenge. There are many prophecies in BSG that turn out to be total nonsense. Because Damon Lindelof was sweeping the Emmy Awards. Everybody was aping his style, right down to the flashbacks.


There are competing themes. The first is history repeating itself. The second is fairly obvious, as Adama outright says it. "It's not enough to survive. One must be worthy of survival."

The human legacy is one of blood and iron. Adama is trying to transcend the past. The Cylons (as personified by Leoben) want to drag us screaming into the past. I guess that's alright, but there are too many themes competing for attention, particularly in Season Three as you mentioned. None of them make an impact.

By now, you can tell I've made no bones about my distaste for the Cylons as villains. There is nothing to set them apart from any rogue A.I. you've seen, apart from the 'vision quests'.


When it comes to Benny C., I'm blinded by hatred and always have been.

His mother was in showbiz. Moffat declared him a "great" man who will "tell the stories of great men." (That quote aged poorly.) He got to wear a $1000 Milford coat and parade around on TV, with every character shouting about how they want to fuck him. He gave an interview about how Sherlock is a sex god, because he can play a clitoris like a violin. He actually said that.

And the remake's love of Baltar. Good lord, that guy had better plot armor than Wesley Crusher. Despite running a Vichy government, he managed to not get executed and became the Jesus figure due to his magic cock. Seriously, his followers were all young women. He didn't give prayers to all of them right?

 

[XYZpdq]

And the remake's love of Baltar. Good lord, that guy had better plot armor than Wesley Crusher. Despite running a Vichy government, he managed to not get executed and became the Jesus figure due to his magic cock. Seriously, his followers were all young women. He didn't give prayers to all of them right?

I could never get into BSGremake, the shaky cam rustled my jimmies too much
Caprica was kinda cool for being Space Dallas, but I can see why people wanting More BSG Remake would be annoyed
also regarding Space Above And Beyond, at no point did I ever look into the idea, nor even rewatch it after it initially aired, but I remember when it first was on tv feeling that it seemed like a Wing Commander show that the license fell through for at some point during production

 

[Captain Syrup]

And the remake's love of Baltar. Good lord, that guy had better plot armor than Wesley Crusher.

I thought he would publicly executed and become Jesus, with Roslin as Pontius Pilate.

Instead he winds up a farmer, with all of his achievements gone. I guess that's a cruel irony.

Caprica was kinda cool for being Space Dallas

It's like that Tat Wood quote about Doctor Who. "What other programme would give you a western in a swamp?” As if that is a mark of distinction or reason to watch it.

If I remember right, Neelix was put in charge of the scavenging team, and then immediately got one of the crew eaten by a giant monster. I'd definitely call that worse than average cooking.

"Basics". A job for which Neelix ought to be uniquely suited: rely on his wits and whatever there is around to scavenge. Instead, Neelix is becoming something a liability to the crew as he has started sending them to their deaths. Wasn't Piller forced to write that episode by Jeri Taylor (with the intent of killing off everyone he introduced)?

There's a whiff of cynicism about it. Kind of like how Archer is supposed to be the common man thrust into greatness. Instead he's playing out a liberal's caricature of Dubya: a hateful, ill-informed, and immature redneck.

It's not what Scott signed up for, and he never looked comfortable in the role.

As a DS9 fanboy I want to watch Babylon 5 next

That's how I was introduced to B5. I binge-watched DS9, having not seen it since it aired. Then I binged B5, looking for a fix.

They're definitely similar, but B5 has a 90's cyberpunk vibe, which is compelling if you're into that.

B5 was definitely a good show. The special effects unfortunately are painfully dated

Let me preface by saying I'm not afraid to bash B5 where it counts.

You can't talk about B5 without someone mentioning the dogshit CGI, or how Season One is a slog. To this I say:

The CG improves as time wears on. By S4, it's pretty convincing, particularly the ship battles. S1 has some standalone filler, like the cyborg Nazi. But it passes the time amiably, and some of those episodes are among the show's best. You can't just "skip" Sarah Douglas and David Warner.

Nah, it was just an immensely expensive show with large sets and (at the time) impressive CGI, which didn't have the return on investment

With a show that expensive, you need to justify renewal. And Farscape S4 didn't do that. (There's an infamous memo which made the rounds online, demanding more "Beavis & Butthead" style humor from the writers.)

Ebert wrote of Jim Carrey, "[he] takes no hostages, cuts no corners, and allows no compromise. I like his attitude." That's Farscape in a nutshell for me. It was bold, it was daring, it had crazy motherfuckers doing a lot of fucked-up shit.

I stuck with it because Aeryn has an ASMR-inducing voice.

 

[polyester]

With a show that expensive, you need to justify renewal. And Farscape S4 didn't do that.

It's for the best - I think additional Farscape seasons would likely have sucked.

Most of the drama/excitement in seasons 1 and 2 of that show came from personal conflict among the protagonist crew, consisting of a bunch of fugitives with very different backgrounds and goals who only banded together for survival but distrusted each other and were ready to stab each other in the back.
(Kinda the opposite of Star Trek, which as has been discussed in this thread, kept intra-crew conflict to a minimum at Roddenberry's behest. But it worked for Farscape.)

Anyway, after a few seasons of "character development", the Farscape crew had become inseparable best buddies (or significant others) for life, and the show had to switch over to getting all its drama from external threats faced by the crew... And somehow that didn't work out as well with the same characters.