Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

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Also, the dude was also so petty that one of his first orders was telling someone to get the fish out of the ready room. Say what you will about how presumptive he was for thinking he'd be keeping command of the Enterprise. (He believed Picard was going on a suicide mission, he might have been right.) You've already shorted the staff to the point that they're stressing out over it, and *redecorating* is your number one priority? That just makes all the other random shit you're ordering look all the more petty.
I don't think that saying "oh, by the way, someone get that fucking fish out of here" is making it the number one priority. He was the man for the job and he got the job done. I don't see any problem with him turning Captain Stubing's Love Boat into a proper military vessel for a few weeks.

In fact, maybe with the fish that's what he was trying to show a crew that, let's face it, could be a little soft. If you ever watch "Bar Rescue" John Taffer likes to do a "show firing" in front of everyone to let them know they're not in Kansas anymore. Lots of NFL coaches who are trying to turn programs around often have to tangibly let the team know things are different going forward. Jellico telling Riker to grow up and setting up his office the way he wants in the name of military discipline isn't being unduly hard. It's showing them they need to nut up if they want to survive.

I'm pretty sure Jellico mounted chairs like Riker back in his day. He did nothing wrong.
 
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They are an eexploration ship, but they still are part of the Federation (which is basically the military) and they need to follow protocol and obey orders when the situation requires it. I can't remember the episode that much, but the situation with the Cardassians was tense, so they all need to put down the bs and act accordingly. If a current science vessel is ever found close to any enemy territory, they can't say "wait, our captain is not very strict during peace time, we need time to adapt to a new situation". That's what Riker and Troi were asking and Jellico was perfectly right telling them to stfu.

I get that the writers wanted conflict between Jellico and Riker, but they did a poor job with it. Riker's real reason to be mad was that Jellico wasn't Picard. No wonder he doesn't want to leave the Enterprise, he knows his future crew could have an asshole treating him in the same way he treated Jellico.
 
Whether or not Enterprise D was armed like a warship, it wasn't run like one under Picard.

Nothing Jellico ordered was particularly out of line by itself, but he was still expecting a bunch of fucking science nerds change gears and become battle-hardened hardasses like he was overnight, no explanation given, and he wasn't even giving them the manpower to make the (significant and maybe even a bit arbitrary) changes he was asking for.

This is one of the few times Deanna actually did her job competently, and he completely shut her down for it. (I'm not talking about telling her to wear a proper uniform, I think most people agree, that was a good call.)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ug03nVQTuo8:118
Also, the dude was also so petty that one of his first orders was telling someone to get the fish out of the ready room. Say what you will about how presumptive he was for thinking he'd be keeping command of the Enterprise. (He believed Picard was going on a suicide mission, he might have been right.) You've already shorted the staff to the point that they're stressing out over it, and *redecorating* is your number one priority? That just makes all the other random shit you're ordering look all the more petty.
This might have just been me reading to closely into it but I always thought the purpose of Jellico and his actions was to get the Enterprise ready for war should it be necessary as Picard and co were running a risky operation and the Enterprise would be one of the first ships to respond given it's proximity and the fact it is the Federation flagship. Jellico's uprooting of the command structure was to get the crew prepared so that they wouldn't be flailing should war be declared.
 
This might have just been me reading to closely into it but I always thought the purpose of Jellico and his actions was to get the Enterprise ready for war should it be necessary as Picard and co were running a risky operation and the Enterprise would be one of the first ships to respond given it's proximity and the fact it is the Federation flagship. Jellico's uprooting of the command structure was to get the crew prepared so that they wouldn't be flailing should war be declared.

It was. Otherwise, why not just let Riker in charge? They knew the situation could have escalated to war, so they needed someone with war experience.

And no, Jellico didn't owe them any explanation.
 
I don't think that saying "oh, by the way, someone get that fucking fish out of here" is making it the number one priority. He was the man for the job and he got the job done. I don't see any problem with him turning Captain Stubing's Love Boat into a proper military vessel for a few weeks.
It was literally one of his first orders, (after changing the duty roster so there would be less personnel at a time to carry out any of his seemingly arbitrary/petty orders) and he made it even more forcefully than most of the other orders he gave at the time. It was clearly a priority for him.
If the Cardassians were going to be spending even a moment inside of the Captain's ready room (and spoiler, they didn't, that would just be retarded) then I could understand it being a priority. As it was, it just came off as Captain "I'm the alpha wolf" Jellico, pissing on the ship to mark his territory, even after he had already spread personnel unnecessarily thin to carry out his orders at that point.

In fact, maybe with the fish that's what he was trying to show a crew that, let's face it, could be a little soft. If you ever watch "Bar Rescue" John Taffer likes to do a "show firing" in front of everyone to let them know they're not in Kansas anymore. Lots of NFL coaches who are trying to turn programs around often have to tangibly let the team know things are different going forward. Jellico telling Riker to grow up and setting up his office the way he wants in the name of military discipline isn't being unduly hard. It's showing them they need to nut up if they want to survive.
If that was actually his intention (and for the record, there is no reason to believe it was) Then he's an even shittier leader than I gave him credit for being. That is not the mark of a good leader. It's already explicitly shown that Jellico is a micro-manager to the extreme.
As far as leadership styles go, that one rarely works to inspire loyalty or morale among your underlings, especially when the things you are micro-managing are just petty bullshit to show your new crew that you're the "alpha wolf" (Jellico's own words more or less, just not about himself.)

It's also particularly telling that Jellico didn't even bother telling his underlings what his strategy was when meeting with the Cardies, (i.e. making Gul Lemec wait for him, just to show who the 'alpha wolf' was.) That apparently wasn't a bad strategy... but why the fuck didn't he tell the crew about it until Deanna came to ask him why he was sitting on his ass doing nothing? All the more damning, given how hands on was for literally everything else. What if Deanna hadn't come in to ask Jellico what the fuck he was doing? His plan seemed dependent on that... So he's literally counting on his crew questioning his (as far as they know) stupid orders? That's a shitty Captain.

You know, I don't even think Jellico is even remotely this bad, but from what I just said, he does remind me of another shitty leader from a more modern sci-fi property...
badleader.jpg


They are an exploration ship, but they still are part of the Federation (which is basically the military) and they need to follow protocol and obey orders when the situation requires it. I can't remember the episode that much, but the situation with the Cardassians was tense, so they all need to put down the bs and act accordingly. If a current science vessel is ever found close to any enemy territory, they can't say "wait, our captain is not very strict during peace time, we need time to adapt to a new situation". That's what Riker and Troi were asking and Jellico was perfectly right telling them to stfu.
Nobody's saying that they shouldn't follow orders, but calling the Federation "basically the military" is almost as ridiculous as the people who insist that Gene's apparent vision that "no they aren't the military all, similarities be damned".
There is obviously some overlap, but Starfleet's primary mission is clearly one of exploration. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, they're mostly a bunch of fucking science nerds.

I get that isn't quite so cut and dry. Jellico himself is clearly a military man (presumably by necessity) but I don't remember any other main character in Trek being explicitly stated to have fought in the Cardie war besides O'Brien.

I'm guessing that Jellico was at least a decent war time captain against the Cardies, he clearly understood their general psychology well enough, but I wouldn't have put him in charge of the ship negotiating with the cardies during supposed *peace time*. He could have just as easily been brought in as a special consultant to the captain. (And I'll be right back to that in a second.)
I get that the writers wanted conflict between Jellico and Riker, but they did a poor job with it. Riker's real reason to be mad was that Jellico wasn't Picard. No wonder he doesn't want to leave the Enterprise, he knows his future crew could have an asshole treating him in the same way he treated Jellico.
I do agree that Riker kind of acted like a bitch during that exchange at the end where he basically asks Jellico to beg him to pilot that mission to mine the Cardie ships, that wasn't professional at all.
But you're wrong. Riker's *real* reason for being mad, and this is obvious even if it was never explicitly stated in the episode, was that Admiral Bitchaev (and I'm never going to stop calling her that, because it fits her so well.) put the micro-managing shitty leader, in command of the Enterprise instead of Riker himself.

Mind you, this was mid season 6 TNG. Riker had already more than proven himself capable of being a Captain- He was literally the hero of Wolf 359 and he should have been promoted for this mission. If you absolutely needed a Cardie expert (and I agree, Jellico fits.) then Bitchaev could have just had Jellico be the cardie consultant to acting Captain Riker.

This might have just been me reading to closely into it but I always thought the purpose of Jellico and his actions was to get the Enterprise ready for war should it be necessary as Picard and co were running a risky operation and the Enterprise would be one of the first ships to respond given it's proximity and the fact it is the Federation flagship. Jellico's uprooting of the command structure was to get the crew prepared so that they wouldn't be flailing should war be declared.
He still did a really shitty job of it. I've already said, most of his orders were arbitrary bullshit. Even in the (2 part) episode itself, none of his orders made any difference. Overall, he was just different to mix it up... But at the end of the day, there were 4 lights, so nothing ended up changing. Even the fucking fish came back to the ready room by the end of it.
 
I do agree that Riker kind of acted like a bitch during that exchange at the end where he basically asks Jellico to beg him to pilot that mission to mine the Cardie ships, that wasn't professional at all.
But you're wrong. Riker's *real* reason for being mad, and this is obvious even if it was never explicitly stated in the episode, was that Admiral Bitchaev (and I'm never going to stop calling her that, because it fits her so well.) put the micro-managing shitty leader, in command of the Enterprise instead of Riker himself.

Mind you, this was mid season 6 TNG. Riker had already more than proven himself capable of being a Captain- He was literally the hero of Wolf 359 and he should have been promoted for this mission. If you absolutely needed a Cardie expert (and I agree, Jellico fits.) then Bitchaev could have just had Jellico be the cardie consultant to acting Captain Riker.
I get what you said, but I think that, at the moment of what looked like imminent war, they wanted to go with a safe bet. Yes, Riker's actions against the Borg were heroic, but Cardassians are a different thing. Blowing up the Borg Cube was the right move, but you can't just blow up a Cardassian ship because that means war. A war is different than an invasion. You need someone who knows them well, who can negotiate with them, and who knows how they operate. At the end, Jellico was victorious and he rescued Picard.

Remember what Data told Worf: it's fine that an officer has reservations about an order, but they can't act like a jerk about it. Riker did. I think this YT comment I found puts it well: "Instead of Riker being the epitome of confidence and efficiency as a first officer, we see him sidelined and tripped up by his new CO’s standards. Troi’s counsel is tone deaf and unwelcome, and- many years before Admiral Clancy did it less diplomatically- we see the venerable Jean Luc Picard being told to essentially shut the fuck up and mind his business. And, we see Data as the only one who can relate to the new Captain precisely because he has no ego or feelings to get hurt."

Riker had all the right to disagree with Jellico and even tel him so, but at the end, his job was to obey his captain, even if he wasn't happy about it.
 
I get what you said, but I think that, at the moment of what looked like imminent war, they wanted to go with a safe bet. Yes, Riker's actions against the Borg were heroic, but Cardassians are a different thing. Blowing up the Borg Cube was the right move, but you can't just blow up a Cardassian ship because that means war. A war is different than an invasion. You need someone who knows them well, who can negotiate with them, and who knows how they operate. At the end, Jellico was victorious and he rescued Picard.

Remember what Data told Worf: it's fine that an officer has reservations about an order, but they can't act like a jerk about it. Riker did.
That.. is not what Data told Worf about being second in command. Like at all.
Data's main problem was that Worf openly questioned him *in front of the crew*. He even acknowledged that Worf was correct when he said that it is the duty of the second in command to offer alternatives... But let me remind you what you're saying is totally fine-
Even if you think Riker was in the wrong for telling Jellico that he was wrong for *lying* and telling the cardies that Picard was acting without Federation authorization, (even though he was totally following Federation orders) Riker *still* didn't even really question Jellico *in front of the crew*. The only other person there at the time was Deanna. (And her opinion meant fuck all, and rightfully so.)
Riker was 100% relieved of duty because he wasn't ok with Jellico lying to the Cardies about Picard's mission being sanctioned by the Federation:
RIKER: I'm not suggesting you trade an entire star system for one man's life, but you've got to acknowledge that these were Federation orders and he is a prisoner of war.
JELLICO: No.
RIKER: He will have the protection of the Seldonis Convention.
JELLICO: That would play right into Gul Lemec's hand. He's just waiting for some sign of weakness on our part before he starts making more demands.
RIKER: I can't believe you're willing to sacrifice Captain Picard's life as a negotiating tactic.
TROI: Will! Captain, we're all concerned about
JELLICO: Are you questioning my judgment, Commander?
RIKER: As First Officer, it is my responsibility to point out any actions that may be mistakes by a commanding officer. sir.
JELLICO: Then maybe it's time you found other responsibilities. You're relieved. Don't make me confine you to quarters as well.
You know what, after re-watching this 2-parter tonight, I've changed my mind. Jellico can go fuck himself. Riker did nothing wrong. He even had the right to be a little bit smarmy when Captain "let Picard die if we get an advantage with the cardies" was the one running the Enterprise and was asking him to run the mining mission.
 
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RIKER: I'm not suggesting you trade an entire star system for one man's life, but you've got to acknowledge that these were Federation orders and he is a prisoner of war.
JELLICO: No.
RIKER: He will have the protection of the Seldonis Convention.
JELLICO: That would play right into Gul Lemec's hand. He's just waiting for some sign of weakness on our part before he starts making more demands.
RIKER: I can't believe you're willing to sacrifice Captain Picard's life as a negotiating tactic.

Except Nechayev is to blame for the situation, not Jellico. He's just trying to do the job he was assigned.

It was Nechayev who decided to send a skinny, middle aged starship captain (who would be a high value prisoner) on a dangerous, rushed and half-assed special ops mission along with a willowy, middle aged ginger woman and Worf. The script tries to justify it through backstory handwavium, but none of these people are even remotely qualified for black ops. Even Worf is basically a glorified security guard and Holodeck MMA enthusiast.

So Admiral Girlboss' plan is to have three unqualified people - two of them who look like they can't take a punch - spelunk into some dangerous caves on a hostile planet and then break into a secret Cardassian military facility to destroy illegal bioweapons. And before they even get there, Crusher is forced to masturbate some sketchy Ferengi dude's ears in exchange for help getting to the planet. There are toothless hillbilly crystal meth dealers in Florida with better planning skills than this.

They're also dressed in Archer's favorite tactical turtlenecks instead of Starfleet uniforms, which is the kind of trick that usually gets people tortured and killed as spies if they're caught. And they're famous Starfleet officers, at least two of them with critical intelligence about Starfleet tactics, technology and security.

This is a bad plan, because it's high risk for little reward and the potential downside is huge. Even if they were to succeed, the Federation probably isn't intending to make its findings public (hey guys, so we did some space terrorism against a species we're officially at peace with and you'll never believe what happened next...), and presumably in the best case scenario the Cardies could just relocate their WMD program to another planet or something.

So, eh, why not just send some MAKOs in, or Section 31, or even just some tough but expendable redshirts from the enlisted ranks, in a stealthed runabout instead? Or hire some alien mercenaries through a cutout? Because that wouldn't make for as good a story, obviously.

Back to Jellico.

Before the exchange above with a visibly emotional and openly contemptuous Riker, the Cardassians hinted that admitting to Picard's mission would be a declaration of war.

That's why Jellico is here, to prevent a war, or at least win one if it comes to a fight. The Federation is seriously worried about the Cardies invading a disputed system, something that probably wouldn't stop there - with the Cardassians also demanding the Federation vacate other "clearly Cardassian" planets. The fate of entire worlds is literally at stake in the negotiations Jellico is tasked with, and Riker is yelling at his boss because he isn't prepared to put one man - who might already be dead for all he knows - ahead of untold numbers of Federation citizens.

What would happen if Jellico fesses up? Riker seems to think the Cardies are fans of the honor system, but they enjoy torture a whole lot. There's no actual reason to believe they'll just let Picard go even if the Federation does claim him. Lot of regrettable accidents can happen in secret detention facilities run by fascist states.

It's not even Jellico's decision whether or not to admit to the Cardies that Picard was doing their bidding. It's Nechayev's. Jellico is just passing it up the chain of command with his recommendation - which is vindicated by later events.

And then it's Jellico who saves Picard. None of the Enterprise senior crew likes his idea to mine the Cardassian fleet. Jellico shows his usual devotion to duty by setting aside his personal feelings and asking Riker to pilot the shuttle - which Riker reacts to with smug petulance.

And then Jellico's plan works and gives him the leverage to get Picard freed immediately. War averted, the Cardies sent home with taspar egg all over their faces, Jean-Luc alive and back on his ship. The guy walked into a bad situation, does everything that's asked of him - and more - and is rewarded for it by being hated by just about everybody except Data and LaForge.

You're welcome.

Redecorate.jpg
 
The more I think about it the sillier the fish argument is. You might as well say "he didn't say 'make it so', which the crew was soooo used to by that point. He was messing with the smooth operation of the ship!".

These border on microaggression allegations.
 
The more I think about it the sillier the fish argument is. You might as well say "he didn't say 'make it so', which the crew was soooo used to by that point. He was messing with the smooth operation of the ship!".

These border on microaggression allegations.

Maybe the fish removal was an action to make them all aware that Picard was gone and he was now in charge. A message to remind them he was their new captain (even if only a few days).

Remember that, at first. Riker didn't want to let go Picard when he was first kidnapped by the Borg. And after their plan failed (because Picard knew of it), his priority was still rescuing Picard. He never let go and they all were lucky.

I wonder if the Federation sent Jellico PRECISELY for that reason. Starfleet sent Shelby because she knew a lot about the Borg and I'm sure they expected she could help Picard as a First Commander. They were expecting Riker to leave and get his own ship. He accepted her with reluctance once he was made the Captain.
 
Not to be dick but math tells me that 1kg of anti-matter at 100% conversion would only be about 1.8×10 to the 17th joules. That's only about 43 megatons if you convert it to Americano.

Just to be precise.
TOS wisely never stated what the exact amount of antimatter in a Photon Torpedo was, that was provided in the supplemental materials. This is another reason I don't take the technical manuals seriously.

TBH, I was never comfortable going to pet stores and looking at schools of fish trapped in a Ziploc bag. But I'm guessing that Livingston had all the perks a fish could possibly have.
I have to admit, I grew up in a household with home aquariums and it didn't really take me a very long time to realize that any fishtank is orders of magnitude tinier than the pond/lake/river/entire fucking ocean that a fish would naturally live in. The idea of keeping a creature adapted for such environments in a confined space like that still sort of unsettles me, even though I greatly appreciate the beauty of even a modest aquarium.

Current Year culture is warming up to this a little; just about everyone knows that goldfish are actually carp and not suited to live in a regular tank let alone a fishbowl. Same with Betas absolutely not being adapted to survive in a cup or vase.

The justification for letting this carry on is "fish are stupid". To which I say, well, I hope they are, because otherwise it would be impressively cruel to keep them in the conditions we do.
 
Now that I'm looking at this specific frame, Jellico is actually a family man used to dealing with petulant children. The only reason to frame those kinds of drawing is because his kids made them (probably years ago).
Jellico has real children. He doesn't need to be anyone's father. Not the case of Picard.
 
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