Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[moocow]

Jellico, they may have written him a little too well: he makes Riker look like a petulant bitch.

Jellico is one of my favorite guest TNG characters. No-nonsense hardass who knows his shit and gets the job done. Ronny Cox did a great job with the role. It was nice to see him in a "good guy some people don't like" role versus the "evil-relishing bad guy" role he often got typecast into.

 

[Starscreams Cape]

Now that I'm looking at this specific frame, Jellico is actually a family man used to dealing with petulant children. The only reason to frame those kinds of drawing is because his kids made them (probably years ago).

I noticed that too. It's like the more you examine this guy the better he gets.

 

[UnKillFill]

Except Nechayev is to blame for the situation, not Jellico. He's just trying to do the job he was assigned.

It was Nechayev who decided to send a skinny, middle aged starship captain (who would be a high value prisoner) on a dangerous, rushed and half-assed special ops mission along with a willowy, middle aged ginger woman and Worf. The script tries to justify it through backstory handwavium, but none of these people are even remotely qualified for black ops. Even Worf is basically a glorified security guard and Holodeck MMA enthusiast.

So Admiral Girlboss' plan is to have three unqualified people - two of them who look like they can't take a punch - spelunk into some dangerous caves on a hostile planet and then break into a secret Cardassian military facility to destroy illegal bioweapons. And before they even get there, Crusher is forced to masturbate some sketchy Ferengi dude's ears in exchange for help getting to the planet. There are toothless hillbilly crystal meth dealers in Florida with better planning skills than this.

They're also dressed in Archer's favorite tactical turtlenecks instead of Starfleet uniforms, which is the kind of trick that usually gets people tortured and killed as spies if they're caught. And they're famous Starfleet officers, at least two of them with critical intelligence about Starfleet tactics, technology and security.

This is a bad plan, because it's high risk for little reward and the potential downside is huge. Even if they were to succeed, the Federation probably isn't intending to make its findings public (hey guys, so we did some space terrorism against a species we're officially at peace with and you'll never believe what happened next...), and presumably in the best case scenario the Cardies could just relocate their WMD program to another planet or something.

So, eh, why not just send some MAKOs in, or Section 31, or even just some tough but expendable redshirts from the enlisted ranks, in a stealthed runabout instead? Or hire some alien mercenaries through a cutout? Because that wouldn't make for as good a story, obviously.

If you want to put some of the blame onto Admiral Bitchaev, I'm all in favor of that. As you've already more than explained, her plan was retarded from the beginning, and sending Picard and Crusher to carry it out was such a bad call that I do truly wonder if she wasn't purposely trying to give them over to the cardies.
So alright, if you want to say what happened to Picard, even the refusing to admit that he was working under Starfleet orders, was also entirely her fault I'll even give that one to you. But that still doesn't change my biggest problem with Jellico.

Back to Jellico....

Bitchaev didn't tell Jellico to completely fuck around with pretty much every aspect of the Enterprise (Jellico is not an engineer, what makes him think he's qualified micromanaging... well anything, let along everything, on a ship he's been on for about 10 minutes total?)

JELLICO: I want you to install a bypass between the main phaser array and the secondary generators. I also want to run the main deflector pathway through the warp power grid and the auxiliary conduits through the lateral relays. You may have to reconfigure the transfer interface.
DATA: Sir, the transfer interface was not designed for that configuration. It will take seven hours to make those changes.
RIKER: Sir, you may not be aware that our normal interface already routes auxiliary power through three separate relays.
JELLICO: I'm aware of your current design system. It's not good enough. If these negotiations fail, we could find ourselves in a war zone and if that happens I want to be loaded for bear.
RIKER: I'll get right on it.
JELLICO: Good. Now these stations should be devoted to damage control and weapons status from now on. See that they're manned at all times.
RIKER: Aye, sir.

It only gets worse when not long after (before his initial changes are completed, and he keeps coming up with more) he decides to arbitrarily transfer staff around to the point where Geordi (who actually does know a thing or two about the Enterprise, you know, because he's the chief engineer) is clearly frustrated that he doesn't have the manpower to carry out Jellico's orders.

No matter how you look at it, this level of micro-managing isn't just terrible leadership, it's also absurd. If it's so damn important that the crew enact your arbitrary changes, the least you can do is give them the manpower to carry out your orders. Why the fuck do you even need so much more security? The cardies aren't here yet... And when they do show up, you only let 3 on board anyway.

If you take everything he says throughout the course of the episodes into account, he's clearly taken the lesson of "I need to be the alpha wolf so they respect me," he learned dealing with the cardies the first time to the extreme and decided to apply it towards his own crew in some misguided attempt to show his dominance over them.

If anybody in the crew actually 'hated' Jellico, I missed it. Everybody, even Will, was clearly just trying to keep with his absurdly hands on leadership style, and what a prick he was when you couldn't.
Hell, the reason why Riker and Jellico first came to blows was because Jellico expected Riker to pull an entire new shift out of his ass in a matter of hours. I'll admit I've never had to do that before, but it doesn't seem like it would be as easy to do as Jellico expected.
Now that I think about it, none of the arbitrary changes that Jellico ordered really ended up mattering, did they? The were all just him pissing on his own crew to show that yes, he was the alpha wolf.

Speaking of Jellico's need to be the alpha wolf- Not telling the crew *why* he was going to his ready room instead of directly meeting with Gul Lemec, (preferably far ahead of time) was absurdly stupid. The tactic itself wasn't stupid... against Gul Lemec at least. But once again, he was also exerting dominance against his crew, making Deanna come ask him what the fuck? There was no reason for him to do this, and things could have gone very wrong if they misunderstood and sent Lemec into the ready room by mistake.

And the fact that his plan to mine the cardies ship worked doesn't change the fact that he was a shitty leader. Getting Picard free was the least he could have done, but I will admit he did actually do it so I guess that counts for something. Still a shitty captain though.

 

[draggs]

If you want to put some of the blame onto Admiral Bitchaev, I'm all in favor of that. As you've already more than explained, her plan was retarded from the beginning, and sending Picard and Crusher to carry it out was such a bad call that I do truly wonder if she wasn't purposely trying to give them over to the cardies.
So alright, if you want to say what happened to Picard, even the refusing to admit that he was working under Starfleet orders, was also entirely her fault I'll even give that one to you. But that still doesn't change my biggest problem with Jellico.


Bitchaev didn't tell Jellico to completely fuck around with pretty much every aspect of the Enterprise (Jellico is not an engineer, what makes him think he's qualified micromanaging... well anything, let along everything, on a ship he's been on for about 10 minutes total?)

JELLICO: I want you to install a bypass between the main phaser array and the secondary generators. I also want to run the main deflector pathway through the warp power grid and the auxiliary conduits through the lateral relays. You may have to reconfigure the transfer interface.
DATA: Sir, the transfer interface was not designed for that configuration. It will take seven hours to make those changes.
RIKER: Sir, you may not be aware that our normal interface already routes auxiliary power through three separate relays.
JELLICO: I'm aware of your current design system. It's not good enough. If these negotiations fail, we could find ourselves in a war zone and if that happens I want to be loaded for bear.
RIKER: I'll get right on it.
JELLICO: Good. Now these stations should be devoted to damage control and weapons status from now on. See that they're manned at all times.
RIKER: Aye, sir.

It only gets worse when not long after (before his initial changes are completed, and he keeps coming up with more) he decides to arbitrarily transfer staff around to the point where Geordi (who actually does know a thing or two about the Enterprise, you know, because he's the chief engineer) is clearly frustrated that he doesn't have the manpower to carry out Jellico's orders.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ug03nVQTuo8:220
No matter how you look at it, this level of micro-managing isn't just terrible leadership, it's also absurd. If it's so damn important that the crew enact your arbitrary changes, the least you can do is give them the manpower to carry out your orders. Why the fuck do you even need so much more security? The cardies aren't here yet... And when they do show up, you only let 3 on board anyway.

If you take everything he says throughout the course of the episodes into account, he's clearly taken the lesson of "I need to be the alpha wolf so they respect me," he learned dealing with the cardies the first time to the extreme and decided to apply it towards his own crew in some misguided attempt to show his dominance over them.

If anybody in the crew actually 'hated' Jellico, I missed it. Everybody, even Will, was clearly just trying to keep with his absurdly hands on leadership style, and what a prick he was when you couldn't.
Hell, the reason why Riker and Jellico first came to blows was because Jellico expected Riker to pull an entire new shift out of his ass in a matter of hours. I'll admit I've never had to do that before, but it doesn't seem like it would be as easy to do as Jellico expected.
Now that I think about it, none of the arbitrary changes that Jellico ordered really ended up mattering, did they? The were all just him pissing on his own crew to show that yes, he was the alpha wolf.

Speaking of Jellico's need to be the alpha wolf- Not telling the crew *why* he was going to his ready room instead of directly meeting with Gul Lemec, (preferably far ahead of time) was absurdly stupid. The tactic itself wasn't stupid... against Gul Lemec at least. But once again, he was also exerting dominance against his crew, making Deanna come ask him what the fuck? There was no reason for him to do this, and things could have gone very wrong if they misunderstood and sent Lemec into the ready room by mistake.

And the fact that his plan to mine the cardies ship worked doesn't change the fact that he was a shitty leader. Getting Picard free was the least he could have done, but I will admit he did actually do it so I guess that counts for something. Still a shitty captain though.

Yeah yeah we know Star Trek has a warped perspective on war unless James Tiberius Kirk is around

In real navies captains usually leave the hands on hardass micromanaging of officers to their XO. That's his job. He's the asshole. Jellico can't do that, the XO is William Riker. Jellico has been thrown into a situation where he has to go on a really badly planned stupid mission and he has no allies among the officers, they're all being whiny bitches. The Federation flagship might be at the razor's edge of a real war at any moment. He knows what to do and he does it and if the fee fees of the super speshul Enterprise crew are hurt, too fucking bad. If he wants Geordi to call him massuh, get to it boy. If he wants to keep his own counsel and practice a little military thing called information control, aka need to know, which he is the sole judge of in this situation, too fucking bad if the Enterprise's officers fee fees are hurt over it. If he wants to go to six hour shifts instead of eight, fucking do it. That's more of a wartime shift rotation. I don't know what it is now, but in both world wars it was a four-hour rotation in the US Navy. Four on, four off, if you were expecting a scrap coming.

Literally everyone on this mission except Jellico fucked up and they almost lost the captain of the Federation flagship to a hostile power because they fucked up in an extremely complex and sensitive situation. The Cardassians would have been justified in going to war if Picard didn't get rescued and they said hey we got this Federation captain here we caught committing an act of war against us now we're gonna kick some Federation butt. Jellico got Picard back and extricated the Enterprise and the Federation from that dangerous ass situation. Based Jellico is a literal god and a throwback to the stock character of the hardass officer who shows he cares for his men by keeping them the fuck alive. I mean Jesus the last thing he says to them "It's been an honor serving with you." He isn't being an asshole just to be an asshole.

 

[Captain Syrup]

Jellico is one of my favorite guest TNG characters. Ronny Cox did a great job with the role. It was nice to see him in a "good guy some people don't like" role versus the "evil-relishing bad guy" role he often got typecast into.

TNG had a habit of casting 'heavies' in benign or heroic roles.

Jonathan Frakes is one example, as his career up to that point had been almost entirely villain roles. Others included:

1. Harry Groener as Tam Elbrun. ("Tin Man")
2. John Vickery as Andrus Hagan ("Night Terrors"). You might recognize him as Neroon from Babylon 5. He'll be back in DS9, as Damar's co-conspirator who winds up betraying Kira and getting shot ("The Changing Face of Evil", "Tacking Into the Wind").
3. Christopher McDonald as Richard Castillo ("Yesterday's Enterprise"). He eats pieces of shit like you for breakfast!
4. Paul Sorvino as Worf's brother Nikolai ("Homeward").
5. Robert Knepper as Wyatt Miller ("Haven"). He would return as the bad guy in "Dragon's Teeth" (VOY). I never watched Prison Break, but I hear he was memorable as T-Bag. People are under a lot of stress.
6. Spencer Garrett as Simon Tarses ("The Drumhead"). He would later play one of the killer holograms in VOY's "Flesh and Blood".

 

[Sexual Chocolate]

Bitchaev didn't tell Jellico to completely fuck around with pretty much every aspect of the Enterprise (Jellico is not an engineer, what makes him think he's qualified micromanaging... well anything, let along everything, on a ship he's been on for about 10 minutes total?)

JELLICO: I want you to install a bypass between the main phaser array and the secondary generators. I also want to run the main deflector pathway through the warp power grid and the auxiliary conduits through the lateral relays. You may have to reconfigure the transfer interface.
DATA: Sir, the transfer interface was not designed for that configuration. It will take seven hours to make those changes.
RIKER: Sir, you may not be aware that our normal interface already routes auxiliary power through three separate relays.
JELLICO: I'm aware of your current design system. It's not good enough. If these negotiations fail, we could find ourselves in a war zone and if that happens I want to be loaded for bear.
RIKER: I'll get right on it.
JELLICO: Good. Now these stations should be devoted to damage control and weapons status from now on. See that they're manned at all times.
RIKER: Aye, sir.

Idk if telling other people to make changes happen counts as micromanaging, it seems to be the opposite of that to me.

Lot of technobabble in that dialog, but what does it actually convey?

* Jellico is in a hurry
* He's driven by making his mission succeed, not by getting people to like him
* He believes the Enterprise isn't ready to fight a war (debatable, but having crew dedicated to damage control and weapons doesn't sound crazy)
* He has an authoritarian style of leadership, which isn't always the best way, but can be effective if it's matched with competence - for example, in a war zone

It only gets worse when not long after (before his initial changes are completed, and he keeps coming up with more) he decides to arbitrarily transfer staff around to the point where Geordi (who actually does know a thing or two about the Enterprise, you know, because he's the chief engineer) is clearly frustrated that he doesn't have the manpower to carry out Jellico's orders.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ug03nVQTuo8:220

Geordi finds out from Data that he can make those changes, if his guys work around the clock. Nobody likes crunch time, but it's in response to a war situation developing fast (Starfleet seems to have been caught with its unitard down on this one). And we saw Kirk make impossible demands of Scotty all the time.

Everybody, even Will, was clearly just trying to keep with his absurdly hands on leadership style, and what a prick he was when you couldn't.
Hell, the reason why Riker and Jellico first came to blows was because Jellico expected Riker to pull an entire new shift out of his ass in a matter of hours. I'll admit I've never had to do that before, but it doesn't seem like it would be as easy to do as Jellico expected.
Now that I think about it, none of the arbitrary changes that Jellico ordered really ended up mattering, did they? The were all just him pissing on his own crew to show that yes, he was the alpha wolf..

New leaders often shit test their staff if they're sent in to effect change. Putting a bit of pressure on people you might have to trust beside you in combat in just a few hours isn't necessarily arbitrary.

Seeing how they react can be valuable information, as well as shaking them up from any complacency that might be there from being comfortable under the old boss. It's not as if Jellico had time to get to listen to Riker's jazz band or pet Spot's cat, they were literally flying into a crisis.

And the fact that his plan to mine the cardies ship worked doesn't change the fact that he was a shitty leader. Getting Picard free was the least he could have done, but I will admit he did actually do it so I guess that counts for something. Still a shitty captain though.

But you're not a shitty captain if you achieve everything that you set out to do, without a single loss of life. If Jellico had fucked about and bungled his mission, he'd be an asshole.

Because he succeeded brilliantly in a situation that could easily have turned violent, that makes him a magnificent asshole.

 

[Captain Syrup]

It's not as if Jellico had time to get to listen to Riker's jazz band or pet Spot's cat

Come on, Cohaagen, you got what you want! Give these people "Autumn Leaves"!

 

[UnKillFill]

I don't think we're going to agree on this, but that's fine.

 

[Uranus Pink]

Given there is WWII history books including the US Navy's Pacific compaign. Berman, Braga the TNG writers could have easily stroll over to a few libraries and bookstores to pickup copies. Damn the USN had criminally incompetent admirals to gotten men under their command needlessly killed who they could have based Jellico off of. Instead they inadvertently wrote him a man who got shit done and zero tolerance for bitch ass sandy vagina insubordination.

 

[Captain Syrup]

inadvertently wrote him a man who got shit done and zero tolerance for bitch ass sandy vagina insubordination.

I see Jellico as one of those periodic attempts to modernize Trek; make it more believable. Like the MACOs on Enterprise.

 

[naaaaiiiiillllll!!!]

I seem to recall there was some controversy surrounding the fish. Patrick raised the point that holding "Livingston" captive was antithetical to the show's values.

Ah, liberals.

TBH, I was never comfortable going to pet stores and looking at schools of fish trapped in a Ziploc bag. But I'm guessing that Livingston had all the perks a fish could possibly have.

I have to admit, I grew up in a household with home aquariums and it didn't really take me a very long time to realize that any fishtank is orders of magnitude tinier than the pond/lake/river/entire fucking ocean that a fish would naturally live in. The idea of keeping a creature adapted for such environments in a confined space like that still sort of unsettles me, even though I greatly appreciate the beauty of even a modest aquarium.

Current Year culture is warming up to this a little; just about everyone knows that goldfish are actually carp and not suited to live in a regular tank let alone a fishbowl. Same with Betas absolutely not being adapted to survive in a cup or vase.

The justification for letting this carry on is "fish are stupid". To which I say, well, I hope they are, because otherwise it would be impressively cruel to keep them in the conditions we do.

Minor saltwater aquaria ‘sperging, but while they have “the entire ocean” to live in, many fish only live in tiny specific regions (coral reefs are literally ultra-crowded city-islands in the mostly lifeless ocean desert) AND many species are extremely territorial. While some swimming/schooling fish travel large distances, Livingston is a Lionfish, which is one of those solitary territorial fishies that live/hover-swim in their own bubble in the ocean (solitary and ambush hunt any fish/crustacean that fits in it’s mouth). While I personally think Livingston’s tank is a bit too small, he’s more or less living the dream Lionfish life (if his tank was bigger, I’d give his setup a 10/10).

It’s extra funny too because Lionfish are an invasive species in much of the Atlantic and are actively being culled. This would make Livingston a rescue fish which lines up with Picard’s recent libtard re-imagining (doesn’t he have rescue Pibble dogs in ST : Picard by Stewart’s request?).

 

[ProfDongs]

Two things I'm thinking about in Enterprise, one is when T'pol is getting convinced to be married to the Vulcan guy he says "I just want you to be happy" which is especially goofy considering they are on Vulcan. The other is at the end of the Brent Spiner episode when he switches interest to cybernetics and says "I doubt I'll finish the work myself" I really expected him to say "maybe, The Next Generation™", probably been said many times before though.

 

[ZMOT]

Two things I'm thinking about in Enterprise, one is when T'pol is getting convinced to be married to the Vulcan guy he says "I just want you to be happy" which is especially goofy considering they are on Vulcan.

works for me tho, I always assumed vulcans have those emotions to some degree, just don't get influenced by it (hence being overly logical to be super sure), leading to them not acting on them in general (as in "I'm horny I wanna fuck" and suppressing that to a degree it bursts out at some point for the sake to propagating the species).

 

[Captain Syrup]

I really expected him to say "maybe, The Next Generation™"

He did say that. Soong's last line was, "That would take Generations."

It's almost as bad as Archer wishing aloud for a directive...which is prime!

 

[ProfDongs]

He literally said that. Spiner's last line was, "That would take Generations."

That's almost as hilarious as Archer wishing aloud for a directive...which is prime!

I know it's the same thing, I just expected it to be way more on the nose.

 

[Captain Syrup]

I know it's the same thing, I just expected it to be way more on the nose.

Soong spent his life trying to rehab the Augments and then he just shrugs off their deaths; like someone who's just cum and is faced with closing a dozen PornHub tabs.

Stuff like that is oddly alienating to watch, and why I will probably never revisit Enterprise.

 

[Flexo]

Yet at the same time Ferengi men can be fiercely protective of their mothers to the point where they made a whole rule of acquisition forbidding insulting another Ferengi's mother.

The legends of the ferengi book listed how the rest of that rule went:

…insult something he cares about instead.

It was literally one of his first orders, (after changing the duty roster so there would be less personnel at a time to carry out any of his seemingly arbitrary/petty orders) and he made it even more forcefully than most of the other orders he gave at the time. It was clearly a priority for him.
If the Cardassians were going to be spending even a moment inside of the Captain's ready room (and spoiler, they didn't, that would just be retarded) then I could understand it being a priority. As it was, it just came off as Captain "I'm the alpha wolf" Jellico, pissing on the ship to mark his territory, even after he had already spread personnel unnecessarily thin to carry out his orders at that point.


If that was actually his intention (and for the record, there is no reason to believe it was) Then he's an even shittier leader than I gave him credit for being. That is not the mark of a good leader. It's already explicitly shown that Jellico is a micro-manager to the extreme.
As far as leadership styles go, that one rarely works to inspire loyalty or morale among your underlings, especially when the things you are micro-managing are just petty bullshit to show your new crew that you're the "alpha wolf" (Jellico's own words more or less, just not about himself.)

It's also particularly telling that Jellico didn't even bother telling his underlings what his strategy was when meeting with the Cardies, (i.e. making Gul Lemec wait for him, just to show who the 'alpha wolf' was.) That apparently wasn't a bad strategy... but why the fuck didn't he tell the crew about it until Deanna came to ask him why he was sitting on his ass doing nothing? All the more damning, given how hands on was for literally everything else. What if Deanna hadn't come in to ask Jellico what the fuck he was doing? His plan seemed dependent on that... So he's literally counting on his crew questioning his (as far as they know) stupid orders? That's a shitty Captain.

You know, I don't even think Jellico is even remotely this bad, but from what I just said, he does remind me of another shitty leader from a more modern sci-fi property...
View attachment 2235794


Nobody's saying that they shouldn't follow orders, but calling the Federation "basically the military" is almost as ridiculous as the people who insist that Gene's apparent vision that "no they aren't the military all, similarities be damned".
There is obviously some overlap, but Starfleet's primary mission is clearly one of exploration. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, they're mostly a bunch of fucking science nerds.

I get that isn't quite so cut and dry. Jellico himself is clearly a military man (presumably by necessity) but I don't remember any other main character in Trek being explicitly stated to have fought in the Cardie war besides O'Brien.

I'm guessing that Jellico was at least a decent war time captain against the Cardies, he clearly understood their general psychology well enough, but I wouldn't have put him in charge of the ship negotiating with the cardies during supposed *peace time*. He could have just as easily been brought in as a special consultant to the captain. (And I'll be right back to that in a second.)

I do agree that Riker kind of acted like a bitch during that exchange at the end where he basically asks Jellico to beg him to pilot that mission to mine the Cardie ships, that wasn't professional at all.
But you're wrong. Riker's *real* reason for being mad, and this is obvious even if it was never explicitly stated in the episode, was that Admiral Bitchaev (and I'm never going to stop calling her that, because it fits her so well.) put the micro-managing shitty leader, in command of the Enterprise instead of Riker himself.

Mind you, this was mid season 6 TNG. Riker had already more than proven himself capable of being a Captain- He was literally the hero of Wolf 359 and he should have been promoted for this mission. If you absolutely needed a Cardie expert (and I agree, Jellico fits.) then Bitchaev could have just had Jellico be the cardie consultant to acting Captain Riker.


He still did a really shitty job of it. I've already said, most of his orders were arbitrary bullshit. Even in the (2 part) episode itself, none of his orders made any difference. Overall, he was just different to mix it up... But at the end of the day, there were 4 lights, so nothing ended up changing. Even the fucking fish came back to the ready room by the end of it.

Well........... you're right to an extent and wrong to an extent. I will say Jellico is heads and shoulders above Holdo.

 

[Drag-on Knight 91873]

Vulcans have emotions, but they are deeply afraid of them. Especially when the Ark of the Covenant forced them to learn to control their spergery.

 

[Kornula]

I used to fucking hate Star Trek. I was forced to watch it as a child, and absolutely disregarded it. Now that I am older, wiser, and nerdier, I can say that I am beginning to have more interest in the franchise. I have begun watching Enterprise on netflix... Where do I go from there? Is there some sort of primer for Trek or should I just watch whatever I feel like watching?

Scrub every image of "Enterprise" from your soul.. start over with the Original Series... In particular; "Return of the Archons"

 

[L50LasPak]

Scrub every image of "Enterprise" from your soul.. start over with the Original Series... In particular; "Return of the Archons"

That's, really goddamn far into the series to start. The Naked Time, Enemy Within, The Corbomite Maneuver, Balance of Terror, Conscience of the King, Shore Leave and Arena are all classics.