Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

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Worf and Dax. Was way better than Worf and Troi.
I never cared for Dax as a character but God I wish she could have stayed on for one more season and lived happily ever after with Worf instead of sudden Ezri & Bashir.

O'Brian and the she devil. When I think of couples that's the only one that seems organic rather than "who can we get together that would draw more interest?"
Their relationship felt more like an exploration of what it would be like to get married and start a family on a starship rather than the romantic drama and will-they-won't-they of the other characters. Congrats to them on getting their shit together early.

Surprised nobody has mentioned Riker and Troi.
If it weren't for Troi explaining it in one of the episodes I would have had no idea that they were supposed to be exes who still harbored feelings for each other or whatever their dynamic was. Seemed like they only got back together and married because of a lack of other options.
 
That's because TOS hired hotties for the flings of the week and William Shatner had chemistry with all of them.
Shatner eventually stopped giving AF about his love scenes. He got into a spat with an Orion slave girl ("Whom Gods Destroy") because her makeup rubbed off on his toupee. True story.

When you look at the scripts, he and Nimoy had ample reason to be angry.
I was fuckin destroyed when he recreated the original enterprise and sat down, the man just wants to be in his ship
faw9z89ic6s11.jpg
 
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The harbinger of doom is when Shatner stopped giving AF about his love scenes. He got into a spat with an Orion slave girl ("Who Gods Destroy") because her makeup rubbed off on his toupee.

Of course, when you look at the scripts, he and Nimoy had ample reason to be angry.
No kidding? Where did you hear this?
 
No kidding? Where did you hear this?
The actress talks about it in an interview.

Edit: Ah, I found it:
“He wasn’t as warm a person. He was tired of the green makeup because it was marking up his clothes. We were supposed to shoot a love scene, and he was getting pissy that I wasn’t allowed to touch him because he didn’t want any makeup on his costume. And I’m thinking, ‘Oh my God, how am I going to do a love scene with him if I can’t touch him?’ So, I figured I would just play with his hair a little— surely the makeup wouldn’t show up in his hair. One night, I go in to say goodnight to everyone and Shatner is standing there with his hair in his hand— I didn’t know he wore a toupee! And I’m thinking, ‘Damn! Now, he won’t let me touch his hair either!'” - Yvonne Craig, Starlog
 
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Going back to the subject of couples.

Quark gives an economics lesson to a Klingon widow.
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I just love how Klingon Academy, the game, is basically a prequel to Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.

Oh remember Star Trek games that were not Mobilecrap or MMOs?
Starfleet Command and Elite Force was really nice.
 
Fave couples:
No real opinion, I liked whatever they put actual work into. Even Keiko & O'Brien. Definitely Dax over Troi for Worf.

As I said before, Shinzon needs Picard's body in order to survive and beat the clone degeneration. He likely wouldn't have gone after him in the first place otherwise, but his calm measured approach starts to break down as the movie progresses. Then he starts getting more and more unhinged. I really like the make up that depicts him slowly falling apart throughout the film.
Yes, I know what excuses the writers put in to make the story work. They had at least some bare-bones competence at the time. That doesn't make the story any better or compelling. Kahn being on the cusp of victory yet unable to grasp it because he must turn back, he HAS to have his revenge on Kirk, THAT is compelling. THAT is gripping storytelling.

Shinzon, "I have to chase after Picard because I need that kidney, dammit!" is shallow and trite. Then at the end, "he's going to use the super weapon to hit earth!" Why? He's not going to use it on Romulus? You know the place that's filled with the people who abused him??

You can perform a little experiment a friend taught me once. The "remove/replace" test. That is, if you remove/replace a character, detail, plot point, etc, how much of the story has to change to "fit" the new version? Easy version: Replace Kahn with another TOS villain. Well everything about the movie has to change to the point it all falls apart. You have to invent whole new reasons and circumstances for said villain to have the drive to hunt Kirk. Now, let's replace Shinzon with what someone suggested earlier: Sela. Not as much has to change save some conversational details in the scenes. She has a personal connection and history with Picard so she would request the Enterprise. Would even give them an excuse to bring the crew together as she might request the members her mother knew. She could have a compelling drive to hunt him after what Picard did to her mother. You can drop the Remans completely (please) or even still include them with Sela's backstory which was only ever lightly fleshed out in the show.

Hell, forget B4 (who is only necessary for one escape sequence), make the nemesis of the movie Lore. Have Data's brother return and be hell bent on revenge. THAT would not only be more entertaining, but we could get to see Spiner ham it up on the big screen.

That's by far one of the biggest flaws of Nemesis (Insurrection too). You can remove/replace whole chunks of the movie (i.e. Why the dune buggy sequence? what does it add?) and it would either be improved, or lose nothing from the change. It doesn't hang together tightly as an interconnected story, it just... putts along like a cold computer program.

Worse much of it's failings continue on to the 3 kelvin movies which all fail in almost exactly the same ways as far as story structure goes.
 
Remember when Star Trek was about looking outwards, new civilizations and strange new worlds, and exploring how the Federation (us) would deal with all the wonders and oddities and dangers of the final frontier?

Now Star Trek is all about navel gazing.
 
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Now Star Trek is all about navel gazing.
I remember catching an episode of The Orville. Robert Picardo debunked the sci-fi equivalent of the Wakefield Study, and some fanatics tried to kill him.

Daaamn, son. Whatever your personal beliefs are, this sort of thing isn't common: Messy truths laid out for viewers to chew over and discuss. Those days are long gone; it's all a little self-congratulatory now.
 
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Shinzon, "I have to chase after Picard because I need that kidney, dammit!" is shallow and trite. Then at the end, "he's going to use the super weapon to hit earth!" Why? He's not going to use it on Romulus? You know the place that's filled with the people who abused him??

It was always part of the plan to hit earth. Because no matter how shitty Shinzon's life may have been, he does consider the Romulans to be his people on some level. He wants the satisfaction of ruling them, and have them admire his leadership. Plus if he blows them up he'll start a civil war between the Romulans and Remans that he cant win. War with the federation provides a rallying cry to cement his leadership.


It legit would be been interesting to have Sela and Lore do a tag team against the enterprise, but I appreciate Nemesis for what it is.



(I enjoyed the dune buggy scene, but why the hell did they bring back that alien for 2009 trek?)
 

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Fave couples:
No real opinion, I liked whatever they put actual work into. Even Keiko & O'Brien. Definitely Dax over Troi for Worf.


Yes, I know what excuses the writers put in to make the story work. They had at least some bare-bones competence at the time. That doesn't make the story any better or compelling. Kahn being on the cusp of victory yet unable to grasp it because he must turn back, he HAS to have his revenge on Kirk, THAT is compelling. THAT is gripping storytelling.

Shinzon, "I have to chase after Picard because I need that kidney, dammit!" is shallow and trite. Then at the end, "he's going to use the super weapon to hit earth!" Why? He's not going to use it on Romulus? You know the place that's filled with the people who abused him??

You can perform a little experiment a friend taught me once. The "remove/replace" test. That is, if you remove/replace a character, detail, plot point, etc, how much of the story has to change to "fit" the new version? Easy version: Replace Kahn with another TOS villain. Well everything about the movie has to change to the point it all falls apart. You have to invent whole new reasons and circumstances for said villain to have the drive to hunt Kirk. Now, let's replace Shinzon with what someone suggested earlier: Sela. Not as much has to change save some conversational details in the scenes. She has a personal connection and history with Picard so she would request the Enterprise. Would even give them an excuse to bring the crew together as she might request the members her mother knew. She could have a compelling drive to hunt him after what Picard did to her mother. You can drop the Remans completely (please) or even still include them with Sela's backstory which was only ever lightly fleshed out in the show.

Hell, forget B4 (who is only necessary for one escape sequence), make the nemesis of the movie Lore. Have Data's brother return and be hell bent on revenge. THAT would not only be more entertaining, but we could get to see Spiner ham it up on the big screen.

That's by far one of the biggest flaws of Nemesis (Insurrection too). You can remove/replace whole chunks of the movie (i.e. Why the dune buggy sequence? what does it add?) and it would either be improved, or lose nothing from the change. It doesn't hang together tightly as an interconnected story, it just... putts along like a cold computer program.

Worse much of it's failings continue on to the 3 kelvin movies which all fail in almost exactly the same ways as far as story structure goes.
You said no less than 5 separate things that I agreed with in this post. In real time as I was reading, you worked your way up from a simple agree to semper fi. And you didn't stop being right after I stopped counting.
 
I will never understand the hate that movie gets. I fucking love every moment of that film and legit consider it the best one of the TNG movies.

The last time Star Trek was good.
I'm apologetic towards Nemesis because I don't find it as intellectually offensive as Insurrection or anywhere near as boring. First Contact fans will rage, but I put First Contact and Nemesis on about the same level of quality. I consider them both big action movies that approach the level of capeshit in how bombastic their plots are, and they both bend the characters as the plot requires, and both of them have very drawn-out action sequences that, while fairly good on a technical level, are ultimately derivative of other action stuff at the time.

Shinzon is the weak link of the movie though. I certainly agree that more time should have been spent on his background and his buildup. Infact, I would have eliminated the scene where he assassinates the Romulan Senate altogether and had them killed offscreen in an exposition dump, just to give Shinzon more time onscreen. I'd also have revealed him as human before Picard even meets him and change the mystery of "Who is this Shinzon guy?" to "Why is a human leading the Romulans/Remans?". I'm not talking a short intro either, I'm thinking a full 15-20 minutes of the movie devoted to setting up Shinzon, setting up the state of the Romulan Empire, and setting up his plan and why he wants to do it. Then at about the 35 minute mark have him and Picard meet and get into the clone backstory.

While I do like the idea of Shinzon, I would also mess with the clone idea a little. Perhaps there was an imperfection in the cloning technology that caused some latent Romulan features to come through. Something to make him more than just some dude. I'd also focus on making his strengths more like Picard's. Instead of being a warrior, show sequences of him winning battles and pulling political deals just by talking it out with his adversaries. Make him more overtly cunning, more scheming. In the movie itself he comes off as just too brutish and quick to resort to force to solve a situation a keen speaker (like we would expect a Picard clone to be) could solve with words.

Additionally, he just does some fundamentally irrational things, like waiting around on going through with the procedure, leaving Picard tied up in a room with only one guard (if he had a problem seeing Picard die because he felt kindred to him or something, maybe show that more directly), letting B4 roam around on his ship without supervision when he knows Picard has an identical android, and especially mind-raping Troi which blatantly served no purpose and instantly made Picard and the Enterprise turn against him. How pent up do you need to be to go after a middle-aged woman anyway? You mean to tell me he could have his pick of any concubine in the Romulan Empire, probably including humans (Sela was the daughter of a human prisoner after all, I'm sure the Empire has at least some they've captured for various reasons) but he mindfucks a random Starfleet officer at the worst possible time? Come on.

Tom Hardy's performance is excellent though. I have to wonder how the man doesn't go crazy with all of the shittily written roles he keeps getting stuck with. He sells the character pretty well.

Nemesis problem was that they expressly and obviously tried to rip off Wrath of Khan.
Nemesis does, but it feels less like a ripoff and more of a homage to me.
Believe it or not I disagree with this. I don't think that a Star Trek story having a clear badguy who wants power automatically makes them a Khan ripoff. Is that a storytelling cliche in general? Of course it is, but its not like Star Trek literally invented that with Khan. Hell, even having an enemy that wants revenge on the main character is a cliche as old as Greek myth.

Now Star Trek is all about navel gazing.

Its been there from the start. Calling Nu-Trek navel-gazy is kind of giving it too much credit honestly; that assumes that it has anything going on in its head at all.
 
Believe it or not I disagree with this. I don't think that a Star Trek story having a clear badguy who wants power automatically makes them a Khan ripoff. Is that a storytelling cliche in general? Of course it is, but its not like Star Trek literally invented that with Khan. Hell, even having an enemy that wants revenge on the main character is a cliche as old as Greek myth.
It's not the revenge story, it's all the little things on top of it. Like the emotionless, highly popular second character of the show sacrificing themself to save the day. Or that both had a doomsday weapon which had been invented for just that movie.

You could probably have a lot of fun looking at Shinzon as David Marcus going full villain but that's too autistic even for me.
 
Believe it or not I disagree with this. I don't think that a Star Trek story having a clear badguy who wants power automatically makes them a Khan ripoff. Is that a storytelling cliche in general?

That's a good point.

I think that one of the big problems with NuTrek is that it's done by people who don't "get" Star Trek. They're saying, "Wrath of Khan is the most popular film? That means Star Trek is about people trying to get revenge on the Federation. So let's make three films with that plot!"

I'm not convinced this was the same thinking that went into Nemesis, but it's sort of there, the way you can point to the bad parts of Return of the Jedi and realize the same thing dominated the prequels.
 
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