🐱 ‘Star Wars’ Spotlights Trans Non-Binary Jedi Characters

Android raptor · Apr 4, 2021

Antipathy said:
I understand full well what the term Mary Sue means, even though it is a nebulous and somewhat difficult to define term considering how often it has been used and misused in discourse. Stop slandering me as a retard, a sexist, a bigot, or whatever. Either you can show me an instance of Rey not being a Mary Sue, or you cannot. I've demonstrated why Luke and Anakin are not Mary Sues/Gary Stus (namely their repeated failures, people not liking them and not being portrayed as stupid or evil for doing so, their naivete or ego as character flaws that get them into genuine trouble, respectively), and I've demonstrated, ad nauseum, why Rey is.

Already mentioned tons of times she fucks up. Shit, at least half her scenes in TLJ are her fucking up somehow or people not liking her. Though unlike you I'm not autistic enough to retype a giant wall of text of shit I already said.

And yeah, you are a retard. Everyone on Thunderdome is, myself including. A&H is the highest concentration of retardation on an already extremely retarded forum.

TowinKarz · Apr 4, 2021

The totality of the Empire Strikes Back could be retitled Luke Learns Being A Jedi Takes More than 15 Minutes given how easily Darth Vader mops the floor with him (after he runs off to fight him against the advice of TWO of his mentors) and only stops when he's CUT OFF AN ARM.

Cross-posting, Superman's kinda an interesting take on how to make a functionally invulnerable character NOT fall into the Sue trap..... because most of the "conflict" in a story comes from the fact that for all his power, he can't really solve things like human poverty or crime.... because his inner moral code means, like Batman, just killing the bastards that CAUSE such things isn't an option. He can ensure the planet survives in the face of Galactic-level threats, but he ultimately is powerless to prevent kids from joining gangs and druggies from robbing banks for a fix....

Antipathy · Apr 4, 2021

Android raptor said:
Already mentioned tons of times she fucks up. Shit, at least half her scenes in TLJ are her fucking up somehow or people not liking her. Though unlike you I'm not autistic enough to retype a giant wall of text of shit I already said.

And yeah, you are a retard. Everyone on Thunderdome is, myself including. A&H is the highest concentration of retardation on an already extremely retarded forum.

Did you and I watch the same movie, or are you headcanoning shit again? Because there is one moment where Rey is actually in danger, and that's swiftly ended by Kylo displaying an irrational obsession towards her, and sabotaging himself in order to give her another benefit. The goal of her mission was to turn Kylo and she made him kill Snoke and destabilize the leadership of the First Order, sowing a ton of doubt into him considering his breakdown. That's a pretty overwhelming success, not a failure, not a fuckup. The cave scene meant nothing, because nothing came of it. Hitting Luke Skywalker meant nothing, because nothing came of it. Abandoning her "training" from a horrendously twisted out of character Luke Skywalker meant nothing, because nothing came of it. These are things, informed flaws, that do not actually result in negative consequence, and thus aren't actually flaws.

Bear in mind, at the midpoint of the PT and OT, Anakin and Luke got their hands cut off and almost died due to overconfidence when they disregarded their instructors and ran off to face a Sith. When Rey disregarded her instructor and ran off to face a Sith in the midpoint of the Disney Trilogy, it resulted in a dead Sith and another deeply questioning his motives. How is that, by any rational definition, a fuckup?

A hallmark of the Mary Sue is to do things that would obviously result in injury, death, or some other negative consequence, and then not having that consequence happen, and Rey demonstrates this repeatedly. Everyone likes her in that movie, too. Snoke has a strange interest in her, Kylo's in love with her, the entire Rebellion Knockoff loves her and trusts her to the point of undertaking dangerous, high value alone missions without any help, and she casually saves them by doing shit on the magnitude of what Palpatine was doing while fighting for his life in Revenge Of The Sith. Bear in mind, she did this all untrained.

TowinKarz said:
The totality of the Empire Strikes Back could be retitled Luke Learns Being A Jedi Takes More than 15 Minutes given how easily Darth Vader mops the floor with him (after he runs off to fight him against the advice of TWO of his mentors) and only stops when he's CUT OFF AN ARM.

Cross-posting, Superman's kinda an interesting take on how to make a functionally invulnerable character NOT fall into the Sue trap..... because most of the "conflict" in a story comes from the fact that for all his power, he can't really solve things like human poverty or crime.... because his inner moral code means, like Batman, just killing the bastards that CAUSE such things isn't an option. He can ensure the planet survives in the face of Galactic-level threats, but he ultimately is powerless to prevent kids from joining gangs and druggies from robbing banks for a fix....

See above. Mary Sue is not and has never been a level of absolute power, but a manner of power relative to setting, and how people act and react towards the character. Superman, for instance, often fights things like Darkseid, or Doomsday, who can beat the shit out of him if he isn't careful, even killing him in a few comics. He also fundamentally can't just fix every problem in front of him, and people (like Batman) sometimes dislike him, and aren't shown as evil for doing so.

I must reiterate, I know what a Mary Sue is, I know what the term means, and I am applying it here, properly, because it is a term that can and should be applied to badly written characters, such as Rey.

Android raptor · Apr 4, 2021

Antipathy said:
Did you and I watch the same movie, or are you headcanoning shit again? Because there is one moment where Rey is actually in danger, and that's swiftly ended by Kylo displaying an irrational obsession towards her, and sabotaging himself in order to give her another benefit. The goal of her mission was to turn Kylo and she made him kill Snoke and destabilize the leadership of the First Order, sowing a ton of doubt into him considering his breakdown. That's a pretty overwhelming success, not a failure, not a fuckup. The cave scene meant nothing, because nothing came of it. Hitting Luke Skywalker meant nothing, because nothing came of it. Abandoning her "training" from a horrendously twisted out of character Luke Skywalker meant nothing, because nothing came of it. These are things, informed flaws, that do not actually result in negative consequence, and thus aren't actually flaws.

Bear in mind, at the midpoint of the PT and OT, Anakin and Luke got their hands cut off and almost died due to overconfidence when they disregarded their instructors and ran off to face a Sith. When Rey disregarded her instructor and ran off to face a Sith in the midpoint of the Disney Trilogy, it resulted in a dead Sith and another deeply questioning his motives. How is that, by any rational definition, a fuckup?

A hallmark of the Mary Sue is to do things that would obviously result in injury, death, or some other negative consequence, and then not having that consequence happen, and Rey demonstrates this repeatedly. Everyone likes her in that movie, too. Snoke has a strange interest in her, Kylo's in love with her, the entire Rebellion Knockoff loves her and trusts her to the point of undertaking dangerous, high value alone missions without any help, and she casually saves them by doing shit on the magnitude of what Palpatine was doing while fighting for his life in Revenge Of The Sith. Bear in mind, she did this all untrained.

I'm not reading all that shit lol

Rey basically causes Kylo to become the leader of the First Order because she thought mailing herself to his tiddies was a brilliant idea and she was sure she could turn him back to the light. She was right about zero of those things and the entire resistance paid the price. She fucked up bigtime.

And you're still a retard (we all are)

Antipathy · Apr 4, 2021

Android raptor said:
I'm not reading all that shit lol

Rey basically causes Kylo to become the leader of the First Order because she thought mailing herself to his tiddies was a brilliant idea and she was sure she could turn him back to the light. She was right about zero of those things and the entire resistance paid the price. She fucked up bigtime.

And you're still a retard (we all are)

Guess what happened when she did that? Kylo killed Snoke and became emotionally unstable. That plan worked. The Resistance paid no price for that whatsoever, she wasn't injured, a Sith died, and a far less competent individual took command. That was an overwhelming success, not a fuckup.

You're not even reading my arguments anymore, and are thus arguing in bad faith.

CaesarCzech · Apr 4, 2021

Hollywood Hulk Hogan said:
Is that how you guys are coping now days?

Lacking self delusion and accepting your flaws is now a flaw ? A coping mechanism ? You Californians arent even human. You are Savages, Savages.

Android raptor said:
We're posting in a thread about Star Wars on an autistic shitposting forum. We are all retards.

Though nah, I wasn't calling him sexist, just a retard that has no fucking clue what a Mary Sue actually is and only knows the term from people bitching about Twilight almost 10 years ago.

That said, this is a forum where I see "islam is right about women" posts on at least a weekly basis along with all the other usual thunderdome hatred of Jews and black people and whatever. It's A&H. Half the people here are rejects from /pol/ who wandered in for the Christchurch thread and never left. Trying to say there are no sexists here is even more retarded than sperging about fictional space wizards.

Okay I read your post about what this forum is. And i dont see anything wrong with it. Perhaps you will tell me what exactly is wrong with this forum.

asr · Apr 4, 2021

I'm personally leaning towards her being a Mary Sue myself. Although I'm not much of a star wars fan or a movie person in general. I think I would have enjoyed a more gritty take on Rey, with character development and actual struggle, growth, and loss shown.

Watching the movie it seemed like any struggle she had was hand waved away or not given due justice and shown to the audience more to drive it in. Like for example her being abandoned on that desert planet, why not actually show more of that perhaps her growing up in it, struggling? Yet we don't.

This seems to be a trend I've noticed very few stories in media seem to be character or narrative driven now. I just want good stories where I can get emotionally invested in characters again (:_(

Android raptor · Apr 4, 2021

Antipathy said:
Guess what happened when she did that? Kylo killed Snoke and became emotionally unstable. That plan worked. The Resistance paid no price for that whatsoever, she wasn't injured, a Sith died, and a far less competent individual took command. That was an overwhelming success, not a fuckup.

You're not even reading my arguments anymore, and are thus arguing in bad faith.

Kylo was unstable long before he met Rey. Like that's kind of his whole thing (and why he's a great character), he's a retarded unstable edgelord. Rey's plan was to drag Kylo and his tiddies back to the light. Idk where you're getting this bullshit about destabilizing leadership or whatever but that sure as fuck wasn't part of her plan.

The Resistance got their ass handed to them by the end of the movie and Luke is the one that ultimately saved the day. Rey was just kind of in the background in that battle. Her actions might not have been directly why they got their ass handed to them so badly, but it sure as fuck didn't help since it led to Kylo tardraging everywhere and Luke sacrificing himself to wrangle him.

Antipathy · Apr 4, 2021

Android raptor said:
Kylo was unstable long before he met Rey. Like that's kind of his whole thing (and why he's a great character), he's a retarded unstable edgelord. Rey's plan was to drag Kylo and his tiddies back to the light. Idk where you're getting this bullshit about destabilizing leadership or whatever but that sure as fuck wasn't part of her plan.

The Resistance got their ass handed to them by the end of the movie and Luke is the one that ultimately saved the day. Rey was just kind of in the background in that battle. Her actions might not have been directly why they got their ass handed to them so badly, but it sure as fuck didn't help since it led to Kylo tardraging everywhere and Luke sacrificing himself to wrangle him.

No they didn't and no he didn't. Luke basically stalled for five minutes and it was Rey who got everyone out of the stupid hole bunker, after singlehandedly clearing the skies over it. Kylo destabilized the leadership of the Not Empire by killing the Not Emperor, and he only did it because Rey was there. Just because she didn't instantly win at her stated objective doesn't mean it wasn't a massive success.

Are you capable of understanding cause and effect? You're not even trying to argue that Rey's massive grab bag of powers or the fact that everyone either instantly loves her, or is portrayed as stupid, didn't happen either. Now it's you headcanoning consequences that didn't happen for actions that succeeded.

You might as well say Luke blowing up the Death Star was a failure because Vader and the Emperor lived.

Android raptor · Apr 4, 2021

Antipathy said:
No they didn't and no he didn't. Luke basically stalled for five minutes and it was Rey who got everyone out of the stupid hole bunker, after singlehandedly clearing the skies over it. Kylo destabilized the leadership of the Not Empire by killing the Not Emperor, and he only did it because Rey was there. Just because she didn't instantly win at her stated objective doesn't mean it wasn't a massive success.

Are you capable of understanding cause and effect?

Space wizard lifted rocks oh no she's the worst character ever

Damn too bad Rey isn't a middle aged spy that is somehow magically able to always have the most awesome gadgets and beat all the bad guys and bang all the chicks and get away with pretty much everything.

Antipathy · Apr 4, 2021

Android raptor said:
Space wizard lifted rocks oh no she's the worst character ever

Damn too bad Rey isn't a middle aged spy that is somehow magically able to always have the most awesome gadgets and beat all the bad guys and bang all the chicks and get away with pretty much everything.

1: Character performing things she rationally can't, and never failing at anything, means Mary Sue.

2: I said James Bond is a little bit of a Mary Sue either way, but since the entire franchise is built around reveling in how cool he is, that's okay. James Bond was also realistically trained by MI6, so his abilities, while insane, aren't vastly disproportionate to his background, unlike Rey.

3: Star Wars is not a franchise built on how cool Rey is, it is a franchise built around fairly archetypal hero stories in space with lasers, robots, and swords.

You've gone from being ignorant, to being insulting, to fabricating things that didn't happen, to being condescendingly reductionist. Shut the fuck up and either argue with me in good faith or accept that a spade is a spade, and a Mary Sue is a Mary Sue.

Android raptor · Apr 4, 2021

Antipathy said:
2: I said James Bond is a little bit of a Mary Sue either way, but since the entire franchise is built around reveling in how cool he is, that's okay. James Bond was also realistically trained by MI6, so his abilities, while insane, aren't vastly disproportionate to his background, unlike Rey.

An entire franchise being built around how cool one(1) single character supposedly is makes them even more of a Sue. Like the character is so important and so special that the entire franchise revolves around them. Like that is a character bending the story and world around them taken to an extreme.

If you don't like Rey there's tons of other characters in SW and shit to focus on instead. If you don't like Bond I'm not sure there's any point to exploring the franchise at all because it is literally all about him.

James Bond isn't just a a little bit of a Mary Sue, he's probably one of the biggest canon Sues of all time. Hell he's one of the go-to examples I see when people discuss male Sues. The franchise exists entirely to be schlocky escapism just like Twilight, and while there's nothing necessarily wrong with that it does look more than a little bit hypocritical to REEEEEEE endlessly about how Rey is supposedly a Mary Sue but have no problem with Bond whose entire 60+ year franchise revolves around what a massive Sue he is.

Troonologist PhD · Apr 4, 2021

Android raptor said:
:autistic screeching:

Your LJ sporkings must’ve sucked ass because you clearly don’t even know what a Sue is. “Mary Sue” is subjective. It’s bad writing. You can make the most the escapist character ever but if s/he’s a well written character then they’re not a Mary Sue. Bella Swan sucks at everything until she becomes a vampire and yet she’s still a textbook Sue.

Antipathy · Apr 4, 2021

Android raptor said:
An entire franchise being built around how cool one(1) single character supposedly is makes them even more of a Sue. Like the character is so important and so special that the entire franchise revolves around them. Like that is a character bending the story and world around them taken to an extreme.

If you don't like Rey there's tons of other characters in SW and shit to focus on instead. If you don't like Bond I'm not sure there's any point to exploring the franchise at all because it is literally all about him.

James Bond isn't just a a little bit of a Mary Sue, he's probably one of the biggest canon Sues of all time. Hell he's one of the go-to examples I see when people discuss male Sues. The franchise exists entirely to be schlocky escapism just like Twilight, and while there's nothing necessarily wrong with that it does look more than a little bit hypocritical to REEEEEEE endlessly about how Rey is supposedly a Mary Sue but have no problem with Bond whose entire 60+ year franchise revolves around what a massive Sue he is.

Paragraph 1: And? That's not relevant to Rey

Paragraph 2: You're not even denying Rey is a Mary Sue anymore. Sure, there's tons of other characters in Star Wars, and maybe three others in Disney Wars that anyone even knows, but that's not relevant to the argument.

Paragraph 3: Stop trying to change the topic. Rey being a Mary Sue and James Bond being a Mary Sue don't mean the same things, because the James Bond franchise was about James Bond being cool from the start, whereas Star Wars was maliciously fucked over for the sake of exalting Rey in her Sueness. Turning Star Wars into schlocky escapism just like Twilight (where an authorial self insert (Look at Kathleen Kennedy) Mary Sue gets the heart of an angsty goth manchild) was a slap in my face and bad writing. Context is key, and you're ignoring context and have given up trying to argue from the impossible position that Rey isn't a Mary Sue.

Android raptor · Apr 4, 2021

Troonologist PhD said:
Your LJ sporkings must’ve sucked ass because you clearly don’t even know what a Sue is. “Mary Sue” is subjective. It’s bad writing. You can make the most the escapist character ever but if s/he’s a well written character then they’re not a Mary Sue. Bella Swan sucks at everything until she becomes a vampire and yet she’s still a textbook Sue.

As is James Bond. Both he and Bella Swan are massive Sues, probably about 100 times as bad as Rey. James Bond might be an enjoyable character for some people (particularly dudes that like to project onto him as wish fulfillment), but he's not a very complex character since he basically begins and ends at "amazing badass that always saves the day and bangs hot chicks". He doesn't have any real flaws or anything. Spergs itt even admitted the entire franchise revolves around how cool he is and nothing else.

Then there's Beowulf, which from what I remember was basically Sonichu but 1000+ years old.

Antipathy said:
Paragraph 3: Stop trying to change the topic. Rey being a Mary Sue and James Bond being a Mary Sue don't mean the same things, because the James Bond franchise was about James Bond being cool from the start, whereas Star Wars was maliciously fucked over for the sake of exalting Rey in her Sueness. Turning Star Wars into schlocky escapism just like Twilight (where an authorial self insert (Look at Kathleen Kennedy) Mary Sue gets the heart of an angsty goth manchild) was a slap in my face and bad writing. Context is key, and you're ignoring context and have given up trying to argue from the impossible position that Rey isn't a Mary Sue.

Yes Rey was totally created solely out of malice to make dudes like you cry and not as a stock everyman protagonist similar to other SW leads that drew on ideas from Lucas himself.

Rey isn't a Mary Sue. James Bond is a massive Sue. And personally, I enjoy the ST much more than the Bond franchise because I think an entire 60+ year old franchise revolving around what a massive Mary Sue some guy is is boring AF. I get it, this guy is the most amazing badass ever and has access to the most advanced technology and lives in the finest luxury and all women immediately drop their panties for him and he has saved the world multiple time yadda yadda. I'd still rather watch the space white trash girl beat up the retarded goth.

Antipathy · Apr 4, 2021

Android raptor said:
As is James Bond. Both he and Bella Swan are massive Sues, probably about 100 times as bad as Rey. James Bond might be an enjoyable character for some people (particularly dudes that like to project onto him as wish fulfillment), but he's not a very complex character since he basically begins and ends at "amazing badass that always saves the day and bangs hot chicks". He doesn't have any real flaws or anything. Spergs itt even admitted the entire franchise revolves around how cool he is and nothing else.

Then there's Beowulf, which from what I remember was basically Sonichu but 1000+ years old.

Yes Rey was totally created solely out of malice to make dudes like you cry and not as a stock everyman protagonist similar to other SW leads that drew on ideas from Lucas himself.

Rey isn't a Mary Sue. James Bond is a massive Sue. And personally, I enjoy the ST much more than the Bond franchise because I think an entire 60+ year old franchise revolving around what a massive Mary Sue some guy is is boring AF. I get it, this guy is the most amazing badass ever and has access to the most advanced technology and lives in the finest luxury and all women immediately drop their panties for him and he has saved the world multiple time yadda yadda. I'd still rather watch the space white trash girl beat up the retarded goth.

>Rey isn't a Mary sue
*All the reasons Rey is a Mary Sue*
>Well, Luke is too!
*All the reasons Luke is not a Mary Sue*
>Rey isn't a Mary Sue because [headcanon] and [things that didn't happen in the movies]
*All the reasons that is bullshit and Rey is a Mary Sue
>You don't know what a Mary Sue is!
*I clearly establish I know what I'm talking about*
>What about Beowulf? What about James Bond! He's a hundred times worse than Rey, who not only is better than everyone at everything, but warps a previously established franchise to do it? I find boring Mary Sue way more interested than fun Mary Sue, and also, it wasn't malicious
Pictured below: Kathleen Kennedy, in charge of Lucasfilm, with some women I can't bother identifying, clearly pushing an agenda:

Rey was made to push an agenda and this is blatantly clear. The Disney Trilogy was meant to push away all those old characters people liked, like Luke Skywalker and Han Solo, and replace them with a more diverse and fresh cast. The problem is that a rampant Mary Sue occurred and it was done in such a sloppy, insulting fashion that years later, it's still the biggest media embarrassment I've ever seen in my life. Rey isn't a stock everyman protagonist, she's a Mary Sue, and you've stopped even bothering to try and argue against this, because all your claims were and still are bullshit. You like it? Fine, live vicariously through the Mary Sue. But don't fucking lecture me about how this wasn't to push an agenda, look at the title of the thread, and understand this would've never happened if it wasn't for Rey Sue and a whipped fanbase consooming product. Don't pretend that this isn't, on the face of it, a Mary Sue created with political intent.

James Bond, Superman, and Beowulf are completely irrelevant to Rey being a Mary Sue, and you can actually argue on levels that the aforementioned three aren't as massive Sues as Rey, because they have at least the decency to be in their own franchise, rather than warping everything around them like awful fanfiction. Because the Disney movies remind me of awful, wish fulfillment fanfiction (and it is from critiques/sporkings of that where I learned the phrase Mary Sue, in case you're curious). I have read better written fanfiction. I have read better written erotic fanfiction.

Your argument for Rey not being a Mary Sue is repeatedly stating it, ignoring my arguments, and fabricating things that did not happen.

Jason Wynn · Apr 4, 2021

Thank God I was never a big Star Wars fan. If this is the kind of autism it generates I dodged a major bullet

Antipathy · Apr 4, 2021

Autumnal Equinox said:
Thank God I was never a big Star Wars fan. If this is the kind of autism it generates I dodged a major bullet

Oh shit, non autists are here? It was even worse a few years back, you could see me going on even longer tirades in the Star Wars Griefing thread before I left.

Just beware a franchise you love doesn't get bought by Disney, or this will happen to you.

(And if you think I'm an autist with Star Wars, just wait until you learn about Warhammer 40,000)

Gravityqueen4life · Apr 4, 2021

the only star wars story i liked was kotor 2 beacuse it was so anti-jedi and anti-force.

why cant they just focus on writing a good story first?

Antipathy · Apr 4, 2021

Gravityqueen4life said:
the only star wars story i liked was kotor 2 beacuse it was so anti-jedi and anti-force.

why cant they just focus on writing a good story first?

Because Disney has a stranglehold over the market and can afford to put diversity hires and political ideologues in charge of big franchises. Because writing is hard and Mary Sue and crying bigot is easy.

If you want big budget and high quality, Disney has to be broken up because they are a near monopoly.

🐱 ‘Star Wars’ Spotlights Trans Non-Binary Jedi Characters

‘Star Wars’ Spotlights Trans Non-Binary Jedi Characters for Trans Day of Visibility

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