Starfield - Bethesda's new space IP: will probably be full of fun and easily trackable bugs

How do you think Starfield will turn out?


  • Total voters
    971
I am a Bethesda a-log since Fallout 4. I got a lot of Schadenfreude from seeing the trash fire 76. I am getting equal enjoyment from Starfield's failure, despite the small hope that I had for the game.

I am glad that criticism of Emil's bullshit writing is becoming more prominent. I don't doubt that Bethesda will just continue with him as lead writer for ES6 though.
 
I think it is genuinely an attempt to force people onto Starfield. You want to just stay playing your old modded games? Fuck you, they're broken now. Go and buy Starfield goy.
The thing is, it really only fucks over PC players and it isn't hard at all to roll back to the last version that worked so that all your mods aren't fuck on PC.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gmax alcremie
Apparently breaking everyone's Skyrim mods wasn't enough so in a couple months they're going to do it for FO4 too.

I don't understand why Bethesda is so intent on burning their studio to the ground. Seemingly for no reason other than spite for their fans
All of these companies that are selling themselves to Xbox and Playstation are on the verge of falling apart, that's why they're cashing out. You can see the same happening with Bungie. They dont give a shit because it's not their problem anymore
 
It's worth remembering that Bethesda seethed so much over New Vegas that they straight up denied Obsidian's plans to make TES spin offs.

1703260773061.png

They might have pretended to be happy at the money and word of mouth popularity boost towards their studio but they didn't care because Obsidian made Todd and gang look like retards by making a far superior Fallout game with leftovers and scrap on a outdated engine with a deliberatly set to fail schedule than their own mainline Fallout made from scratch when the engine was still somewhat current.

The idea of allowing them to then go and do the same with the Elder Scrolls brand was simply unthinkable, no matter the money. It would be too much of a insult.
 
It's worth remembering that Bethesda seethed so much over New Vegas that they straight up denied Obsidian's plans to make TES spin offs.

View attachment 5583930

They might have pretended to be happy at the money and word of mouth popularity boost towards their studio but they didn't care because Obsidian made Todd and gang look like retards by making a far superior Fallout game with leftovers and scrap on a outdated engine with a deliberatly set to fail schedule than their own mainline Fallout made from scratch when the engine was still somewhat current.

The idea of allowing them to then go and do the same with the Elder Scrolls brand was simply unthinkable, no matter the money. It would be too much of a insult.
Is that why there is absolutely no mention whatsoever of the NCR in the Fallout TV show despite it taking place in their territory?
 
It's worth remembering that Bethesda seethed so much over New Vegas that they straight up denied Obsidian's plans to make TES spin offs.
They also have made deals for brand licensing with shirt and clothing companies, board games manufacturers, toy companies, and so on. And told these companies that they cannot reference New Vegas without permission from Bethesda. Meaning if you get the license to make something like "Fallout the Tabletop Game" or "Fallout the Card Game" you can use anything from Fallout 3, 4, or 76 as much as you want. And even talk about or use art from 1 and 2. But not New Vegas. You need to have Bethesda approve of any content referencing that game as they psychotically gatekeep it from being mentioned.
Is that why there is absolutely no mention whatsoever of the NCR in the Fallout TV show despite it taking place in their territory?
Correct. The show is also an opportunity for Bethesda to erase New Vegas from canon. By having the Enclave fight the Brotherhood at the Hoover Dam instead of the NCR, House, or Legion.
 
Starfield felt like a botched MMO pruned into a Single Player game in a panic. Everything fun was behind a gate behind another gate that only made gameplay sense in the context of paying gemstones to remove. Research made no sense at all, to then lock designs behind Skills, and then availability of item behind Player Level too. That's the kind of grindy bullshit bad MMO designers love. The whole experience reminds me of that odd "you could become the best at cooking hamburgers on your server!" Fallout 76 bullshit: you are left uncertain as to whether any of the developers have ever played any videogame, let alone their own. Stuff like that demonstrates a fundamental disconnect between developer focus and gameplay, and with Starfield it tore the game apart.

There is no way "150 employees" played this game from beginning to end and said "I could do that 10 times over and never tire of clearing generic red enemies from industrial facilities to collect a massive pile of secondhand weapons to drop into a kiosk to accumulate credits that I can't purchase anything meaningful with!" No fucking way. They know Starfield is trash, an alpha build at very best.
The outpost system was utterly braindead from a mechanical perspective. You can tell, quite plainly, that they intended to incentivize building outposts by forcing the player to use them to gather Helium fuel, kind of like in Starbound where your jump range is limited by how much fuel you have access to, but they chickened out and decided to turn fuel into a cap on per-jump distance instead. This meant there was basically no reason to build outposts except to obtain huge quantities of crafting materials which were basically useless anyway. You could obtain basically all the mats you needed for weapon and armor upgrades throughout the game by looting or buying them, so there was no reason to go through the pointless chore of manufacturing them.

Starfield's design doesn't scream "abortive MMO". It screams "abortive survival game". They'd obviously intended it to have hunger, thirst, and scarcity mechanics like, oh, Ark, Conan: Exiles, or Rust, but instead, they settled for a half-assed disease system. I'm guessing that they're planning on re-adding it later as a survival mode patch or DLC or something along those lines. Speak of the devil:


The top issues with Starfield, for me, are these:
  • Too much fast travel and loading screen shit breaking things up into granular chunks.
    • Is this fixable? Not really, because it's an engine choice and design problem. Modders could conceivably try and reduce this by messing around with loading screen transition effects, but it doesn't solve the fundamental problem of the gameplay being broken up into little pieces by gating interstellar, interplanetary, and landing/takeoff maneuvers behind a succession of fast travel choices. It is possible to imagine some enterprising modder eventually adding something like "fly towards a planet to trigger a scripted landing", but that, in itself, would require significant gameplay changes, like increasing the base speed of spacecraft so they can even reach the planet to begin with. It would also make it very hard to choose which biome to land in because planetary terrain would still be broken up into procedurally-generated flat plane chunks. It's difficult to imagine modders actually adding full-size spherical-topology planets, simply because NetImmerse would choke on that. It's already choking trying to render what little exists in a typical Starfield surface map.
  • The UI has too many levels to tab through.
    • Modders can fix this. There are already UI mods, and more will come.
  • The constant inventory management really sucks.
    • This is also fixable with mod tools, by tweaking things like item weights, storage capacity in cargo containers, giving vendors more cash to buy your excess loot, et cetera. What isn't exactly fixable is how, just like Skyrim, chests with tons of different items have a great deal of lag. The game's existing limitations serve to keep the player from storing so many items that it bogs down the game itself.
  • The characters are objectively fugly.
    • Fixable with mods. Eventually, there will be craploads of cosmetic/body mods for characters, just as with previous Bethsoft games.
  • The outpost system is basically useless, since most crafting mats can be obtained by looting or buying them, and it's very hard to set up a production line.
    • This is very fixable, by, for instance, giving connected outposts a shared inventory so there's less wiring and messing around with containers.
  • The optimization is very questionable.
    • Modders can kinda-sorta fix this by recompressing textures, optimizing meshes, and so on, but there's only so much they can do.
  • The main quest is very boring and linear and obtaining Starborn powers feels extremely repetitive.
    • This is basically unfixable, except perhaps by quest DLC, player-added quests with AI voice synthesis for existing characters, and a whole lot of elbow grease.
The prognosis here is not particularly good, since it would take literally thousands of man-hours of work to unfuck everything, which presupposes that the underlying game is good enough to hold the attention of players and modders long enough for it to be unfucked. Bethesda's total lack of humility in that department isn't doing them any favors. It would be wise of them to release the tools ASAP before people get completely bored and move on.

Well Todd has been obsessed with creating an endless game since Skyrim at the very least. Radiant quests were the solution at the time. They want to endlessly repeat the Skyrim success by making a game they can milk forever, but they can't because they keep fucking up and misunderstanding the core appeal of that game, and what keeps people coming back.

Rather than creating a game with more depth, more hand crafted content, and even better modding tools, they dumb things down, use proc gen, and delay/sabotage modding at every opportunity.
It's easy to say that Skyrim is a superior game because of this or that, or because of some buzzword like "immersion", but that's not the real reason why Skyrim is objectively better than Starfield. The real reason is consistency. Skyrim doesn't feel like it was the mashed-together product of a billion different contractors. It had a consistent vision, not just aesthetically, but in terms of the totality of all the design elements in the game. Everything fits everything else like a glove. The combat system fits the music, the music fits the environment art, the environment art fits the UI, and so on. Starfield doesn't have that. Starfield may have a single, consistent visual aesthetic, but in terms of how the player actually interacts with the game, everything is disjointed as fuck. Starfield feels like four or five different games mashed together in one of Jeb Bush's guac bowls.

When Skyrim came out, a lot of Oblivion fans thought it was mediocre. Sure, it had cool graphics, but it continued the trend of console-ization and dumbing-down that started with Oblivion. Oblivion removed polearms, medium armor, and physical damage types from Morrowind. Skyrim pared down the formula from Oblivion even more. The game didn't even have individual stats you could raise aside from Health, Stamina, and Magicka, and investing in perk points. It had a UI built around gamepads. People said the facial animations were ugly and wooden and the dialogue was boring. There were a lot of people who'd played New Vegas the year before who were like, "This sucks, Obsidian have better writers". There were people who'd played L.A. Noire earlier that same year who were like, "Why does Bethesda's face tech look so old, stiff, and janky while Rockstar are putting out games that look like movies?"

Skyrim wasn't an immediate success. It had charm, but it also had enormous and highly visible flaws upon release. Then, when the mod tools and DLC came out, the community expanded upon it with literally terabytes of new content. The only reason why people remember Skyrim fondly now is because they play it with 200+ mods enabled at once. ENBSeries, perk mods, alchemy mods, mods that add new spells, texture packs, armor, weapons, titty mods, quest mods representing hundreds of hours of extra playtime, and so on.

The main problem with Starfield is that it's extremely dated right out of the box. As in, Bethsoft have plateaued and released a semi-decent 2013 game with obsolete tech as a very mediocre 2023 one. Nevertheless, this is the regular Bethesda game cycle. When Fallout 3 came out, everyone said it was dog shit. They thought the ending blew chunks (it did) and was complete bullshit (it was), and it wasn't until Broken Steel came out and people modded the hell out of the game until they started insisting it was a masterpiece instead. It's like people just can't seem to recall how Emil Fagliarulo has always been a clinically retarded faggot who writes the most nonsensical and boring plots in gaming. It's as if people develop "Bethesda Amnesia" between releases where they forget just how incredibly shitty Bethesda games always are.

1Qw5u4k.png
 
Is that why there is absolutely no mention whatsoever of the NCR in the Fallout TV show despite it taking place in their territory?
Correct. The show is also an opportunity for Bethesda to erase New Vegas from canon. By having the Enclave fight the Brotherhood at the Hoover Dam instead of the NCR, House, or Legion.

Wait what? Really? The only thing I saw of this TV show so far was Vinesauce having a aneurysm at the massive 72pt font Todd Howard name with the description of "legendery game Dev" followed by a pretty obvious Marvel style joke-followed-by-pause and have been ignoring it, but are they really this fucking petty?

That is next level. Like holy shit.

It's easy to say that Skyrim is a superior game because of this or that, or because of some buzzword like "immersion", but that's not the real reason why Skyrim is objectively better than Starfield. The real reason is consistency. Skyrim doesn't feel like it was the mashed-together product of a billion different contractors. It had a consistent vision, not just aesthetically, but in terms of the totality of all the design elements in the game. Everything fits everything else like a glove.

This is exactly it. Skyrim was a Bethesda game, made by Bethesda people using a Bethesda design philosophy and skills. Not a corposlop soup made by committee following a ESG checklist while cosplaying as a Bethesda game.
 
Is this fixable? Not really, because it's an engine choice and design problem. Modders could conceivably try and reduce this by messing around with loading screen transition effects
The most prominent "fixes" I've seen floated around reddit for load screens is bringing in air lock transitions similar to the elevators back in Fallout 4.

But it's the dumbest fucking fix I could think of since every loading screen is literally like 3 seconds tops where as those airlock/elevators would take even more time. So I really do have to wonder if a lot of people are not playing on SSD to even suggest such a retarded "fix".

Then I've seen people float around the idea of "spaceship flying" transitions for going from planet to planet and I'm like...that's already there?

I'll be honest, a lot of the retarded fixes I've seen fans float for Starfield really make me question if most of the "people" talking about Starfield on reddit are actually bots.
 
it wasn't until Broken Steel came out and people modded the hell out of the game until they started insisting it was a masterpiece instead.
Who the fuck thinks FO3 is a masterpiece besides contrarian clickbait jewtubers and redditors. There are good things about it but a masterpiece it is not, modded or no.
The top issues with Starfield, for me, are these:
Agreed but let me add one more: the NG+ nonsense is unfixable or at the very least, making it not gay is a herculean task, so much so you'd probably be better off making an entirely different game out of it.
 
Agreed but let me add one more: the NG+ nonsense is unfixable or at the very least, making it not gay is a herculean task, so much so you'd probably be better off making an entirely different game out of it.
Make a mod that opens Daggerfall or Morrowind when you finish so people can play an actually good Bethesda RPG. That'd fix both the NG+ bullshit and all the problems with Starfield.
 
Make a mod that opens Daggerfall or Morrowind when you finish so people can play an actually good Bethesda RPG. That'd fix both the NG+ bullshit and all the problems with Starfield.
Daggerfall Unity is so much fun. I highly recommend the Travel Options Mod and Basic Roads mod. It really shows how fast travel can be a dynamic and fun gameplay mechanic instead of just a teleport.
 
Who the fuck thinks FO3 is a masterpiece besides contrarian clickbait jewtubers and redditors. There are good things about it but a masterpiece it is not, modded or no.
I actually played it a few years back with texture packs and thought it was pretty mediocre. Turns out most of my memories of it were heavily slanted by nostalgia because I played it when I was a kid.

New Vegas fucking rules though what a bomb ass game. Shame Obsidian sucks troon cock now and fuck Bethesda for refusing to let them make a sequel back in 2013 when they wanted to.
 
Last edited:
Agreed but let me add one more: the NG+ nonsense is unfixable or at the very least, making it not gay is a herculean task, so much so you'd probably be better off making an entirely different game out of it.
It was a wasted opportunity if I've ever seen one. The climax is a non-climax. At the end of Starfield, when you discover that you're in a Groundhog Day Loop of the events of the game, competing with other immortals to retrieve the artifacts and advance to the next universe, the actual story should be just fucking beginning. The game ends right as it introduces a huge new concept to the story that it does absolutely fuck-all with. Yes, Constellation's makeup can be randomized in the NG+. Yes, some lines of dialogue may be changed around here and there. However, nothing of any real consequence happens in NG+ (aside from, perhaps, saving your best friend in Constellation from the Hunter using your foreknowledge of events). This is why Emil's a complete dumbass. If you're going to have a parallel universe plot like this, then you need to actually do something with it. Did they? Nope. Even after you become a Starborn yourself, the other Starborn are still just random mooks with no actual relationship to the player.

There should have been a whole separate Starborn faction questline that would only be accessible in NG+. There should have been more dimension-sliding shenanigans like in Entangled (arguably the coolest quest in the game). There should have been a whole ten or twenty additional main quest missions about the player character basically making the universe their bitch. Instead, it ends at what should rightly be considered the halfway point of the story.

And, as I've said before, I find it incredibly sad that a game that bills itself as being "a story about exploration" is definitely not that. It's anything but. It's a bog-standard thriller plot.


The universal theme or CONTROLLING IDEA of a Thriller story is:

"Life is preserved when the protagonist succeeds in unleashing their unique gift, but death or damnation triumphs when they fail to do so."

The exploration parts of Starfield have nothing to do with the story at all. Constellation are mostly a bunch of highfalutin urban socialites and posers who disdain the great outdoors, minus the one redneck and the one crazy gay black dude. The "exploration" parts of Starfield are brief sojourns into empty and pointless procedural worlds with quest markers pointing the way to your objective. It's basically a dialogue-free affair. You bring a companion along, they ooh and ahh at the sights, and then you return back to New Atlantis or wherever to turn in the quest. There are radiant quests and repeatable shit you can do, prospecting for minerals for industrial outposts, or going through the agonizing process of completely scanning planets and all their flora and fauna and minerals and turning the data in to Vlad for the reward, but there aren't any story missions that are specifically about exploration. The whole plot centers on pointless human social drama and there is no environment-centric storytelling of any kind. There isn't even a "discoveries" system like No Man's Sky where you can track all the things you've cataloged. Most of the planets you visit have abandoned human outposts on them, so you're just retreading the same ground as others; you aren't even studying or prospecting unknown worlds at all. It's just utterly mind-blowing to me, how shallow the "exploration" part is, in a game that is billed as being about exploration.

Come to think of it, I don't think a lot of people nowadays even know what the fuck exploration is. Real explorers were fucking hardcore as fuck. The guys who tried to reach the South Pole with sled dogs and the climbers who summited Everest before shit like GPS existed all had hilariously gigantic brass balls. Most game developers seem to have this notion of exploration that basically consists of walking around in a public park and touching grass for a few minutes, maybe zooming in on a strange beetle with your smartphone camera. Like, imagine the most milquetoast soyfaggot idea of exploration, and then multiply the faggotry by ten. Where is the sense of danger? Of personal risk? Of actual discovery? Oh no, I’m being chased by another Douglas Adams technicolor insectoid reject. Better empty a whole mag of shotshells into it before it eats me, and then return to New Atlantis for my TerraBrew and hang out with my polyamorous friend Bill Fucknut and his boyfriend. Bethesda don’t know what exploration even is. It’s a buzzword to them. It’s something that backwards and primitive people did, before the world was mapped out to the centimeter. “Our game has exploration, which means you can kinda-sorta recreate the sensations of something our ancestors might have done, we think, maybe, we’re not sure.”

Real explorers had to deal with shit like frostbite robbing them of toes and fingers, starvation, equipment failure, getting caught in avalanches and floods and mudslides, encountering new plants and fungi and wondering if they’re edible or poisonous, being stalked by ravenous animals, having to treat wounds with improvised medical equipment, and having to jury-rig all sorts of shit. Again, where is the sense of exploration? Where is the story about exploration? There’s nothing. It’s land somewhere, walk to quest marker, shoot rando mooks, pick up plot coupon, walk back to the ship. That’s it.

Next to no one will ever voluntarily scan a hundred planets in a row in this game. It just won’t fucking happen. The scanning mechanic is a brief diversion from the meat of the game, which basically consists of talking to clay-faced automaton people or shooting them.

Imagine if there was an entire questline where your objective is to gather plant, microorganism, and animal specimens to look for bioactive compounds for use in drug manufacture, and you have to actually prepare samples in a lab and shit. I mean, this has a real-world precedent; just think of Penicillin, right? It’s even mentioned in passing by one NPC. You don’t even do anything like that. You do very little actual science. You can equip your ship with a science lab, but it’s only used to progress down the tech tree and unlock useless shit like outpost buildings you will never build. I mean, you don’t even do stuff like lug around scientific instruments to various planets to collect seismic or hydrological or weather data or anything. Most of what you actually do in the game is function as a generic murderhobo protagonist who is an explorer, scientist, and prospector in name only.

This shouldn’t be hard for devs to figure out. There are shitloads of diaries and autobiographical accounts of real explorers throughout history to draw on for inspiration. Did they read those? Nope. Instead, they mashed a generic Mil-SF thriller with a generic cyberpunk story and called it a day.

I mean, think about this. Even the Tomb Raider reboot games have more exploration than Starfield. You actually can go off the beaten path to find collectible trinkets with their own distinct lore. What does Starfield have? Another identical POI with pencil holders and coffee mugs with sassy sayings you can loot?

There’s no fucking exploration in a game that’s supposedly about exploration. That’s fucked up.
 
There should have been a whole separate Starborn faction questline that would only be accessible in NG+. There should have been more dimension-sliding shenanigans like in Entangled (arguably the coolest quest in the game). There should have been a whole ten or twenty additional main quest missions about the player character basically making the universe their bitch. Instead, it ends at what should rightly be considered the halfway point of the story.
I'm guessing this is going to be addressed with DLC/Expansions, similar to what they did with Broken Steel.

Which isn't good, because Fallout 3 also had an absolute dog shit ending that I personally never got over even after it was "fixed", but I seem to be in a minority in that particular opinion.
 
At the end of Starfield, when you discover that you're in a Groundhog Day Loop of the events of the game, competing with other immortals to retrieve the artifacts and advance to the next universe, the actual story should be just fucking beginning.
What I really want is something like Edge of Tomorrow in vidya form. Not a roguelite but a mystery - a confined experience with tons of attention to detail. Something Bethesda is completely unequipped to do.
 
There should have been a whole separate Starborn faction questline that would only be accessible in NG+. There should have been more dimension-sliding shenanigans like in Entangled (arguably the coolest quest in the game). There should have been a whole ten or twenty additional main quest missions about the player character basically making the universe their bitch. Instead, it ends at what should rightly be considered the halfway point of the story.
Part of me wonders if somebody offhandedly described how roguelike games work to him, and he thought, "A game where you just do the same thing over and over? That gives me the perfect idea!" I mean, procgen and multiple runs are all you need, right? Why have things like a deep, cross-run progression system or narrative that shifts over time as you unlock new areas and story beats? Just go from square one again, but with a new ship and suit.
I'm guessing this is going to be addressed with DLC/Expansions, similar to what they did with Broken Steel.

Which isn't good, because Fallout 3 also had an absolute dog shit ending that I personally never got over even after it was "fixed", but I seem to be in a minority in that particular opinion.
Fawkes walking through radiation for you an hour earlier only to tell you "It's your destiny to fucking kill yourself, lmao," at the Purifier is still hilarious. Almost as hilarious as them getting Wes Johnson to record new lines for BS where he points out he'll survive the radiation, but not able to bring Perlman back, so they just recycled the old ending slide lines of the narrator calling you a selfish bitch for not killing yourself and sending Lyons in instead, just with new pictures of Fawkes standing there scratching his head as The True Hero.
 
Last edited:
Which isn't good, because Fallout 3 also had an absolute dog shit ending that I personally never got over even after it was "fixed", but I seem to be in a minority in that particular opinion.
Fallout 3's beginning was just as stupid. The Wasteland has somehow been drinking highly dangerous polluted water for 200 years and no one did anything about it? No one noticed that water was killing and mutating everyone? The Brotherhood, Enclave, and other groups just drank filthy poisonous water for two straight centuries?

Fallout 3's entire storyline and world make zero sense whatsoever. Bethesda simply cannot do things like long term world building or choice and consequences. They just make big open sandboxes. Theme parks. And you go from ride to ride or side quest to radiant quest. In world logic and realism don't matter. It's probably why things like the endless loading screens in Starfield didn't bother them. Because the immersion for them is simply completing the next fetch quest or whatever and not 'being' in the world and choosing your own adventure or story.
 
I still don't understand why there's only a pool of like 5 dungeons.

I get that proc generating dungeons could be done back in 1996, but can't be done today (by Bethesda) but you'd think they'd at least have done at least 3 different layouts for those 5 dungeons or something.

Like you got 1000 fucking street shitters working on this game, I'm sure one of them could produce something on the level of a week 1 Skyrim modder.

Edit: Man, was it even 5? I just realized I can only remember 3. Cryo Lab, Listening Outpost, the mines and maybe those docking ports with the big tower? I don't know if I count them though, I don't think those even had loading screens.

Oh wait, I do kind of remember some sort of underground lab too. But that MIGHT have been a story mission I'm misremembering.
 
Back