Steam's two-hour refund policy leads to indie developer quitting game development - $8.99 for 90 minute games

[NerdShamer]

@X Pac Heat

 

[Red Hood]

Maybe create a "Steam Shorts" category with a different length for returns? Basically "if you open it you bought it" but cap the price at one or two bucks?

 

[Illuminati Order Official]

These are the kind of people that are created when society entertains the idea that games can be high art.

I think they can. But writing a lousy short story and making semi-interactive illustrations for it is not the way to do this. I don't even know why people bother to buy and refund walking sims when they can watch a non-commentary walkthrough and all they'll miss is pressing W to move forward.

If I pay $8 for some game, but am able to complete it under the 2 hours with no replayability then damn right I'm refunding that shit.

The problem I have with $1=1h is this: I really love those old point and click adventures (and some new point and click adventures). Being stuck on a puzzle is a part of the experience so there is no objective way to measure how long a game in the genre is.

 

[Milwaukee Macho Man]

I think they can. But writing a lousy short story and making semi-interactive illustrations for it is not the way to do this.

Games can be art, but funny enough they never are when that seems to be the primary focus.

Every game that I can think of that has made me actually stop and think or feel something has typically been something that was very much a game first and the story came secondary.

 

[Illuminati Order Official]

Every game that I can think of that has made me actually stop and think or feel something has typically been something that was very much a game first and the story came secondary.

I think Pathologic 2 does this well. Story is good enough to make you care about what's going on. And then gameplay comes in and makes you fail, and feel miserable because you failed. It's not that you can't succeed but the system is slightly rigged against you - too little time, too little resources, too many things to do. And yet unlike in, say, Telltale games, the choices you make, successes, failures and sacrifices feel organic, integrated into the world.

 

[cummytummies]

The problem I have with $1=1h is this:

The problem with $X=Xh is that developers pad their mediocre games with boring tedious filler so that Jimmy who saved up his allowance on the game doesn't feel like he got a bad deal since he's too young to understand a metric other than "how many hours did I waste on this?"

Any time I see some "you've gotta be level 12 to advance the main questline" message I just know it wasn't an artistic decision, it was a marketing decision, so that some autist who can't comprehend anything more complex than numbers can go "well, I did get twenty hours out of it, so it can't be that bad". Fucking Dota 2 is free and you can get 5000 hours out of it easily. I just don't see the point of trying to compete in the "hours" economy in the modern video game market.

 

[NerdShamer]

I just don't see the point of trying to compete in the "hours" economy in the modern video game market.

Wagies want their money's worth.

 

[Judge Dredd]

I don't know the current numbers but the rule of thumb for publishers used to be that 80% of the lifetime sales could be expected in the first two weeks of launch. This type of thinking can still be seen, if the price of a game is dumped shortly after release it's because it underperformed during the launch window.

In conclusion, who play games at launch? The overwhelming majority.

I'd like to see those current numbers, because anecdotally, my friends are all playing "old" games. Payday 2, Factorio, Ark, Stardew Valley, Final Fantasy 14. Even normie games are things like Among Us and Fortnite. Most, if not all of those games are being updated with new content, so maybe they don't count.

But let's say 80% of people do play games at launch, all that matters to some is the zeitgeist, the discussion, the discourse, or whatever you want to call it. They have to obsess over the popular thing so they aren't left out of the conversation on social media.

 

[WULULULULU]

Anytime I see an indie dev whine and make the rounds on gaming websires I observe with extreme suspicion. I have learned to do so evee since I saw indieshits whine about greenlight (because getting people to vote for your game was too hard), then its removal (now everyone is putting trash on steam and nobody will notice my indie game!) And lastly whined about the 30% cut steam takes and how great epic games store is for offering better rates.
Not to mention the whole thing with indie awards and the like which is controlled by a circlejerk of assholes won't even nominate your game if you are not part of their group or how said circlejerk was secretly friends with game journos who put out great reviews.
Tldr: don't trust indies whenever their sob stories make the news

I think it is safe to say that the indies themselves are also beyond saving, if the mediocre shovelware and overreacting devs are of any concern.

I did see in the Genshin thread that they'd rather put their bets on the Indie market if they want some classic games, but stuff like this has shown that this is no longer the case and I think the savvy people like Yahtzee has warned us way before about indies having the issue that shovelware games of old had: too much of the same, little time for all.

In this modern age however, this includes power-tripping and drama, so even worse than the shovelware before.

 

[Smaug's Smokey Hole]

@Judge Dredd - oh absolutely, but games that can work like R6Siege, Payday 2, Fortnite is a relatively new thing that works in a completely different way. They're not just multiplayer games, they're more games as a service(as opposed to MMORPGs, they're a different beast).

But think of games like RE8, Arkham Knight and The Last of Us 2. There the launch window will tell the publisher if the game did good or if they will have to drop the price and start bundling it with things. As I said, it used to be a rule of thumb and not an exact science, I don't know how arcane their calculations are these days.

https://d-nb.info/1191761983/34

There are exceptions though they are very rare, games that slid out like a stillbirth on release and then became hugely popular later on, like Among Us.

 

[cummytummies]

But think of games like RE8, Arkham Knight and The Last of Us 2. There the launch window will tell the publisher if the game did good

No offense, but it sounds to me like you've exposed your brain to the Twitter, /v/, resetera cloud. That's not the real market for video games.

 

[Smaug's Smokey Hole]

No offense, but it sounds to me like you've exposed your brain to the Twitter, /v/, resetera cloud. That's not the real market for video games.

What? Who is the real market for video games in your opinion? Because if you ask me it's regular people, they make up 98% of the people playing and buying games. They also like hype, that's why so much is spent on marketing and build-up to release.

Just look back at Anthem or Andromeda and how quickly they dropped the price on those because it didn't hit the projected sales target, they knew there was a time and place where they could shift as many copies as possible and that time was close to release. If they believed that any game will not only hold infinite interest but also sell steadily from release and until the heat death of the universe then they wouldn't do that.

You can see a similar thing in movies too, why do you think they're obsessing over box office revenue and the dropoff between one week and the next?

 

[ZMOT]

@WULULULULU
there's so much indie stuff coming out it's easy to skip the crappy ones, for every dramawhore dev there's at least 5 games from people who just want to make a game and maybe make some money from it. there's also a big difference between a 10-15 buck indie game which you can 100% in a few hours and $70 + tip AAA games that wants double or triple digit hour investment. I much rather play "fun" and good looking platformer #372 than being stuck with the same game that drags it out for the sake of playtime, and since the chunk of game is much smaller it's much easier to switch or move onto another one.

 

[cummytummies]

What? Who is the real market for video games in your opinion? Because if you ask me it's regular people, they make up 98% of the people playing and buying games.

Yeah, people who walk in the game store and buy games. Or do so digitally on their couch. Most of them don't give a shit about online chatter.

Just look back at Anthem or Andromeda and how quickly they dropped the price on those because it didn't hit the projected sales target,

Yeah two notoriously bad games. One a new IP, another a new installment into a RPG universe that had emded 5 years ago. As far as I know Andromeda sold alright, too.

 

[Friendly Mudcrab]

That's not length but quality issue. If the game was short and FUN people would keep it. Hotline Miami is very short but I spent quite a lot of time playing it, because it's a good game with good gameplay. If people beat your game and immediately know they will not touch it again and want their money back, then what does that say about your game?

I don't think indie creators will ever understand that just because they made something doesn't mean it's the best shit ever that deserves popularity and money.

 

[murdered meat bag]

sounds a lot like hiphop, break dancers who say the same shit about their art. " i spent years doing this, i had to get surgeries to fix shoulders and elbows and knees for this art, i should at least get paid $500 for a demo". But a 15 year old kid and his friends can do windmills for 50 bucks and everyone will be happy because windmills are cool and spazzing out on stage isn't. They tried to make a dance union too but i don't think it materialized.

these dorks don't understand that people don't have to care about their art. just because they made it doesn't mean it's worth anything. nothing lost if they stopped making games or paintings or dancing.

 

[Judge Dredd]

As far as I know Andromeda sold alright, too.

By what standard? Pallets of unsold copies were dumped in goodwill, making it the modern day equivalent of burying unsold ET carts in a landfill. The sequels and DLC were cancelled (rip season pass owners).

 

[Love Machine]

There is no reason why a game should be less then 2 hours period.

 

[ZMOT]

I don't think indie creators will ever understand that just because they made something doesn't mean it's the best shit ever that deserves popularity and money.

there's a bit of a difference, someone pouring their heart into something but falls short due to ability or circumstances isn't anywhere near LOOK AT MY PRETENTIOUS ART PIECE YOU JUST DON'T GET IT NOW PAY ME!!!. sure it sucks but the difference is the mindset behind it, even a bland corporate "product" game is less egregious since it's clear they just want your money (and these days they can't even manage to do that, just look at the whole saints row debacle).

imo their days are numbered anyway, feels like everywhere I look I see outright great looking indies made by asians who finally managed to add good gameplay, not just 10/10 visuals with the most brain draining gameplay that is "style over substance" personified.
I mean look at stuff like this:

Save 35% on ANNO: Mutationem on Steam

ANNO: Mutationem is an action-adventure game with RPG elements set in a cyberpunk world, featuring a unique mix of pixelated 2D & 3D graphic style with a rich, dark and bizarre plot.

store.steampowered.com

added bonus: hardly any woke shit

 

[moocow]

Maybe create a "Steam Shorts" category with a different length for returns? Basically "if you open it you bought it" but cap the price at one or two bucks?

That'll just end up being a magnet for no-effort shovelware. Then again maybe a containment category would help clean up the rest of the storefront.