Stormgate - A thread for people who know the difference between right clicking and a-clicking

[Abbadon's Gate]

For those not in the know, Stormgate is a Real Time Strategy game in the same vein as Starcraft and Warcraft made by a shitload of ex devs from both games hoping to bring back the magic of RTS.

The game will be free to play with optional skins for units as well as it seems paid story content for people who care about lore. Its focus seems to be spread out between its cooperative 3v3 and mission modes as well as competitive 1v1 and 3v3s. Figured this would be a good place to talk about it. So I'm gonna do that.

I really, really, really, really, really cannot express enough how much I don't want killing neutral creeps and hero units to be involved in 1v1 competitive play. I really like grinding ladders, and nothing is more lame to me than getting potentially beat by an opponent who got an edge not by outplaying anyone, but by killing NPCs.

I understand that there is strategy to clearing creep camps, maintaining map control, and a presence on the map, I do. I just don't think the additional effort of having to be out and killing creeps, levelling a hero unit, etc. actually adds to the RTS experience in any meaningful way.

I mean on one hand, yeah it does promote being active in the map. On the other hand, neutral creeps are NPCs that anyone can kill easily, regardless of skill and if they provide much benefit to anyone they could make balance a nightmare.

I mean fuck I think back to WoL and HoTS and think "Man you know what would have made the 12 minute max roach even better? If the 200 Supply Roach army also had the Baron Buff from league of legends."

Speaking of Toss, I really l want to see what Stormgates version of the Protoss is gonna be. As a Protoss main, it is more interesting to me than the Terran counter part (although I do like the look of the Human Vanguard more than the Terran), or the Infernal Horde. I'm assuming thematically it'll be some kind of Angellic race.

 

[Muttley]

I'm pretty sure Stormgate is gonna suck but I'm a big FAF and Steel Division fag so I'm posting so hopefully this topic doesn't just die immediately.


Hello niggers

 

[Lemmingwiser]

I felt bad for the devs that they were working so hard on something that is going to bomb so hard, making a game that takes no real risks and instead opts for tried and true methods such as inoffensive storywriting, predictable abilities, uninspired factions.

I also felt bad for RTS gamers as like adventure gamers, they're fossils wishing for something that wouldn't even really make them all that happy. This whole thing is double fine adventure over again and it's going to make even less of an impact than broken age or the new age of empires game did.

I felt bad for all of them, until I read this post. Reading things like "I want to see what stormgate's version of protoss is" and

I really, really, really, really, really cannot express enough how much I don't want

as if anyone cares about anyone's expression (including this post) about what should or shouldn't be in a game. This is the stormgate audience then.

Gamers are niggercattle and what you deserve is more micro and macrotransactions. People are starting to pin hopes on stormgate and it's going to blow up in your faces because these people are has-beens. The people with talent aren't the ones that were squeezed out by blizzard for yearsand are now old and rusty, they're the young minds that are coming out of school. And the games they make will be with crafting mechanics because they grew up on minecraft.

As for games for the boomers like you and me, we'll keep preferring old games over new ones.

 

[Abbadon's Gate]

I'm pretty sure Stormgate is gonna suck

For everything I see that I like I see another thing that makes me skeptical. I think RTS was a better genre than fucking MOBAS and certainly had more fun with it, so I would like if it come back.

Still their design decisions have me worried. Putting so much emphasis on 3v3, reliance on hero characters and creep farming, etc. All that shit leans for a more and more casual experience and RTS is not a casual genre.

It really seems like RTS looks at League of Legends and then does the same shit that got the MMORPG genre in the same state its currently in. They see Riot's player counts and go "If we can emulate this and put our own spin on it, we could be the next Riot." and that shit never works.

People who like RTS don't necessarily like MOBAs. And for those of us that like RTS and absolutely hate MOBAS, adding MOBA elements to my RTS just makes me not want to play the RTS because its an inferior product.

Also its really, really, hard to ignore that a lot of what made SC2 popular was when it came out, and the fact it had a strong community presence. Day9, Huskystarcraft, Artosis, Tasteless, iNcontroL, IdrA, HuK, TLO, Totalbiscuit, Maximus Black, Apollo, etc.

Day9 is basically a Magic the Gathering player who gets wheeled out once or twice a year by the PC Gaming Show. Husky not only destroyed his channel but completely sold out to be the run of the mill standard faggot LA fuckboy. Artosis has left Korea and is moving on with his life. Tasteless is probably still gonna be ride or die. iNcontroL is dead. IdrA quit gaming. Huk runs an Overwatch team or something. TLO is actually involved with the game, so that's cool. TB died, Maximus Black moved on, no idea what the fuck Apollo's up to these days.

 

[Evil Peter Griffin]

Might be good. Here is another free RTS

https://www.beyondallreason.info

 

[Lemmingwiser]

All that shit leans for a more and more casual experience and RTS is not a casual genre

Every genre is a casual genre. In the sense that if you can't attract the casual audience, you won't get the diehard/tryhard audience, or at least, not a critical mass of one to sustain a population.

RTS gaming died because moba's were a more casual implementation and people slowly but steadily migrated. Easier to play, easier to watch.

Also its really, really, hard to ignore that a lot of what made SC2 popular was when it came out

Most people who bought the game don't even follow these people. And SC2 was a success, because blizzard hadn't lost their reputation yet and starcraft brood war was still big after decades and SC2 had a massive marketing budget. Even then, it did fail in the bigger picture. SC2 died before brood war did. Starcraft 2 made less money than a single purchasable mount in WoW.

Starcraft 2 with all it had going for it should have been genre defining, but instead is already mostly forgotten.

 

[draggs]

Stormgate looks like "we wanted to make Brood War but we can't just copy Brood War entirely," even though copying Brood War entirely is the only way you're going to get a really good RTS ever again. AOE2/4 are good games don't get me wrong but Brood War still easily the best and that's probably never going to change. It is making a decent comeback in South Korea and the global competitive scene which is great. Sorry Stormgate, Brood War forever. I'll still check Stormgate out when it's completed. I'm not paying for lore missions unless the gameplay is close to Brood War quality though

The only MOBA that wasn't shit was the original DotA maps (once IceFrog took over developing it) for War3 Frozen Throne. Fuck MOBAs except that one

 

[Evil Peter Griffin]

I know some of these guys worked for Blizzard but come the fuck on with these designs. The factions are not Diablo, not Space Marines and unknown third which I'm going to guess is not Horde.

 

[Abbadon's Gate]

The factions are not Diablo, not Space Marines and unknown third which I'm going to guess is not Horde.

My money is thematically not the Angels from Diablo. They will mechanically be the Protoss equivalent as the Host is Zerg and the Vanguard is Terran.

 

[Muttley]

Every genre is a casual genre. In the sense that if you can't attract the casual audience, you won't get the diehard/tryhard audience, or at least, not a critical mass of one to sustain a population.

RTS gaming died because moba's were a more casual implementation and people slowly but steadily migrated. Easier to play, easier to watch.


Most people who bought the game don't even follow these people. And SC2 was a success, because blizzard hadn't lost their reputation yet and starcraft brood war was still big after decades and SC2 had a massive marketing budget. Even then, it did fail in the bigger picture. SC2 died before brood war did. Starcraft 2 made less money than a single purchasable mount in WoW.

Starcraft 2 with all it had going for it should have been genre defining, but instead is already mostly forgotten.

MOBAs really aren't easier to play though if you stop and think about it.
I'm going to presume most of us are good with computer, have a decent wpm, decent apm in game, are quick with a mouse. And I dont mean fast, just decent. 80-100 apm.
You can start playing a new RTS with people... I'd say... after maybe 3 matches? That's literally how many I played vs AI coming from starcraft to COH2 and I killed it.
Especially if you have the convenience of grid hotkeys, you just have to kind of familiarize yourself with the new game pieces real quick like a board game

Learning a new MOBA requires months of research and dozens of hours of in game time and until then you'll just be getting chewed out by everyone.
You gotta learn what fucking items to buy and when is a good time to TP and buy them and all that shit is like dynamic and really hard to read and takes way more practice.
RTS is build unit and go attack the enemy. You'll have different builds but there's no esoteric game knowledge to acquire, generally speaking.

You can start being a part of the RTS competitive scene for a new game today
Good luck trying to play league of legends for the first time today in 2023, I promise you it wont be fun
You'll be lost in a see of people who suck, and without facing people who are better than you, you never improve.
You never learn the meta, never git gud, and youre just as gatekept as with high level brood war or starcraft 2 play.

You can put in the work and surmount this challenge, but it's going to be just as much work, if not more, than learning a new RTS.

 

[Muttley]

For everything I see that I like I see another thing that makes me skeptical. I think RTS was a better genre than fucking MOBAS and certainly had more fun with it, so I would like if it come back.

You could always check out Forged Alliance Forever
Age of Empires 2 is still huge, and COH2 is still huge.
I really like Steel Division 2. It's like shitty COH but bigger

 

[I'm Retarded?]

The game will be free to play with optional skins for units

uuuuuggghhhhhhh

paid story content for people who care about lore

just make a fucking game and charge up front for it like normal. if it's good, people will buy it. these alternative monetization strategies are sus as hell because they always open the door for dev time to be dominated by making more gay cash shop shit to milk the players for money. remember when dev time was spent on making actual content and features?

View attachment 5546228 View attachment 5546231
I know some of these guys worked for Blizzard but come the fuck on with these designs. The factions are not Diablo, not Space Marines and unknown third which I'm going to guess is not Horde.

this looks astoundingly gay.

 

[Abbadon's Gate]

ust make a fucking game and charge up front for it like normal. if it's good, people will buy it.

I think they want to make the multiplayer free because when they did that SC2's population doubled in size or something. I think that's not a bad way to do RTS. Its already hard enough to get people willing to learn a complicated 1v1 game, but if you can make it free to start you'll attract more people.

 

[Lemmingwiser]

Learning a new MOBA requires months of research and dozens of hours of in game time and until then you'll just be getting chewed out by everyone.
You gotta learn what fucking items to buy and when is a good time to TP and buy them and all that shit is like dynamic and really hard to read and takes way more practice.
RTS is build unit and go attack the enemy. You'll have different builds but there's no esoteric game knowledge to acquire, generally speaking.

You really don't need to know that shit that well and can just fuck around a bit.

You don't have to simultaneously think about build orders, scout enemies, balance micro and macro. The whole game isn't an exponential formula where minute skill differences quickly avalanche out of control. The teamplay in moba's ensure that even scrubs get their wins and pro's get their lossea because each player's contribution only counts for 10% of the match result. It's an ingenious way to obfuscate to people how shit they are and that's good for scrubs. These games are full of people that think they're doing well when they're not. That's the same type of delusion that single player games are sold on.

 

[The Bovinian Derivative]

That music team they put together is top tier, but the 2 snippets of tracks they released on their soundcloud is pretty lackluster. Brandon just slapped together some generic C&C Generals/Modern Warfare background tune and Klepacki just uploaded some random jam session of his.

 

[Abbadon's Gate]

You can start being a part of the RTS competitive scene for a new game today

I disagree. People like Day9 entirely got their careers out of explaining how to RTS well to normal people and most people couldn't even get out of gold league in SC2.

MOBAs require less APM, Less Situational Awareness, less micromanagement, less micromanagement, less scouting information, and most importantly, less requirements to take responsibility for your fuckups. I know in League for a long time it was considered very important to call "MIA" anytime someone you were laning against fucked off for any reason, because its too much for League players to be expected to pay attention to the minimap.

The very idea that in a game of starcraft, it was your allies job to tell you what was going on in the map is laughable. Your job is to fucking pay attention and make these decisions for yourself. Plus in a 1v1 Environment (which I would argue is the primary gamemode for RTS) you don't even have a team there to rely upon. It is entirely up to the player themselves if they win or lose.

Further, I can go online and google any fucking League Build and be able to get the items and they do what they're supposed to do. It takes all of five minutes. Even if you look up a build order for a game like Starcraft, actually being able to get the timings down is difficult and that's supposing you don't get rushed, or cheesed, or all-in'd at an earlier rate. Most players spend the first several months, sometimes years playing strictly off of professionally made build orders. Even fewer ever get to where they understand the game and the timings well enough to actually play freestyle, and of those that play freestyle even fewer can get their styles down and be successful enough to do anything with it.

 

[Muttley]

I disagree. People like Day9 entirely got their careers out of explaining how to RTS well to normal people and most people couldn't even get out of gold league in SC2.

MOBAs require less APM, Less Situational Awareness, less micromanagement, less micromanagement, less scouting information, and most importantly, less requirements to take responsibility for your fuckups. I know in League for a long time it was considered very important to call "MIA" anytime someone you were laning against fucked off for any reason, because its too much for League players to be expected to pay attention to the minimap.

The very idea that in a game of starcraft, it was your allies job to tell you what was going on in the map is laughable. Your job is to fucking pay attention and make these decisions for yourself. Plus in a 1v1 Environment (which I would argue is the primary gamemode for RTS) you don't even have a team there to rely upon. It is entirely up to the player themselves if they win or lose.

Further, I can go online and google any fucking League Build and be able to get the items and they do what they're supposed to do. It takes all of five minutes. Even if you look up a build order for a game like Starcraft, actually being able to get the timings down is difficult and that's supposing you don't get rushed, or cheesed, or all-in'd at an earlier rate. Most players spend the first several months, sometimes years playing strictly off of professionally made build orders. Even fewer ever get to where they understand the game and the timings well enough to actually play freestyle, and of those that play freestyle even fewer can get their styles down and be successful enough to do anything with it.

yes yes soy and resigned to not try just like everyone else

I didnt give you a different perspective on the issue for you to turn around and make excuses
it was to encourage you (not literally you, but whoever might be considering trying out an rts game)

everything you just complained about is muscle memory, it's literally just practice, and that's why you don't wanna do it.

 

[blablabla]

genre peaked with red alert 2, there is no need for more rts games

 

[sadrefrigerator]

I was listening to the new tasteless interview. He does a very good explainatiob of why sc2 failed

 

[Lemmingwiser]

most people couldn't even get out of gold league in SC2.

most chess players cant reach a rating of 1400 either but that says nothing about popular the game is or how much it is played.

If anything the competitive scene destroyed RTS, not because they weren't interesting to watch, but because as people learned how to play RTS well in general, it just reduced massively the variety in opponents you would face. The more people try to to their best, the more they copy top players.