Subverting Expectations: The Megathread - Or How Baby Dick Creators ‘Sort of Forgot’ What an Anti-Climax Is

[StarkRavingMad]

I've never watched Sex In The City because I'm a heterosexual man, but I noticed it was a red flag 20 years ago. Every (then-) twenty something woman I knew who liked it turned to be some kind of emotionally unstable narcissist with chlamydia. I guess their audience has now aged into the bitter wine aunt demographic and the showrunners are just giving them what they want.

#NotAll, lol.

Lots of women who watched this show back in its prime just viewed it as it was: A raunchy sitcom about living an unrealistic lavish life in the big city while wearing runway clothes. Like I said in one of my posts: Escapist girly entertainment. The original series had an air of self-awareness to it as well. The show wasn't afraid to have their main characters have karma bite them in the ass every so often when it was called for, and whenever it did, it was pretty funny. Not saying the show was a masterpiece or anything, but it was likable enough for me back in the day. It became a "just turn my brain off and have fun while I'm taking a break from studying" kind of show for me.

Now, if you come across a girl who's like "Carrie is SO me!" or "I'm such a Miranda!" then yeah, those are the type of people who are red flags. Run away, don't walk.

From what I've seen with the overall "fan reception," though, people are absolutely hating the new series so far-- even the bitter wine aunts. Lots of fans are coming to the defense of many of the male characters that are constantly being shit on by this new series, and are hating on the new characters and the old characters who are acting detestable, surprisingly.

The original series' demographic was for single women, and the show made no mistakes about that. This new series was obviously made with only the "woke" crowd in mind, as it was all written by millennial woke people, and a bunch of the fans (who are women) are pissed with how the series has turned out so far. Fans wanted something like a lighthearted reunion series, and the series turned out to be all about death, preaching, and doing horrible stuff to your partner. To top it all off, one of the main four characters (and arguably the most popular one) isn't even in the series, and the explanation behind her absence is pathetic. And the outfits are hardly even interesting to look at, which is a really bad thing for a series that was known for its costuming/fashion.

Woke milennials over the recent years have vocally called Sex & The City "outdated." A lot of its humor was politically incorrect and very outdated for Current Year (tm). This new series feels like it is trying to "fix" the original show, hence why I consider it to be yet another subversion of expectations.

Sex & The City in 1998: "I don't believe in the Republican Party or the Democrat Party ... I just believe in parties."

Sex & The City in 2021-2022: "I proudly wore my pink pussy hat 5 years ago and quit being a lawyer because I didn't want to become part of the corrupt system that harms people of color! That's why I'm back in college to major in social justice!"

 

[AnOminous]

Woke milennials over the recent years have vocally called Sex & The City "outdated." A lot of its humor was politically incorrect and very outdated for Current Year (tm). This new series feels like it is trying to "fix" the original show, hence why I consider it to be yet another subversion of expectations.

I'm not sure if it's a genuine subversion of expectations when "take over an IP and turn it into pure wokeshit" is just a cancerous practice and, like cancer itself, essentially mindless. For instance, when Rian Johnson raped the shit out of Star Wars, as badly as it was executed, I think he was actually intending a subversion of expectations, not just to crap on the source material or push some soy-filled agenda.

Outright SJWs actually hate the source material and its fans. Johnson's bullshit in Star Wars was almost as bad, though, because he was indifferent to the source materials, and it was obvious he didn't really care.

 

[EmpireOfTheClouds]

Oh that was definitely also an angle they were going for. The blind man also literally "can't see color" which is something insufferable people say. If you really aren't a bigot you don't need to say you don't care what the color of a person's skin is. Actions speak louder than words. I mean you can say it but it feels like someone is defending themselves if they do.

All in all I like it because it's just a pretty solid horror movie. Also the girlfriend not wanting the cop to question the main black character was foreshadowing that she didn't want the authorities to know where he is. Fun little tidbit I read a while back.

The movie in general bashed leftists more than it did right wingers. The message was basically "stop trying to convince us you know how we feel, you don't." The entire point was that false empathy is just as bad as outright racism, if sometimes worse.

So I rewatched Looper. A Rian Johnson ‘joint’ that I remembered as a good execution of a simultaneously neat/dumb premise.

And looking back it is pretty good. Very layered. Good visual and audio storytelling. All of which have some obvious payoff. You can miss them and know what’s happening, just not all of what’s happening and how it all melds together.

There’s a scene where the main character has time with a hooker girl he’s sweet on. She doesn’t really like him. So it starts with her checking her time-piece, with an ambiguous look on her face, putting on her makeup, and then walking down a mirrored hallway. Acting and directing decisions coming together to tell you she isn’t really into this well before she outright says she’s not interested in being with Joe directly to him. This all happening when our main character is questioning his lifestyle, undergoing ennui and weariness with it. All of that. This too is another fake, unsatisfying thing.

What’s funny is that there is no subversion. At least not in the way he’s become notorious for. Jeff Daniels explains that he knows Joe the main character so well that he can manipulate him just by promising to take some of his savings away. This to coerce him into surrending his friend. Joe agrees, albeit with his arms tied, because he is a selfish guy. And by the end he kills himself to close his own loop because he has clarity on the damage he is causing. Pretty much a stock, servicable anti-hero story and ending.

All of these suggestions, both in the A plot and the little asides, are set up then payed off. They feel surprising because the plot moves quickly enough that you forget there was a set up until it's paid off. Because the story is actually confident in itself.

I think it's pretty clear that Johnson succeeds when he is doing his own thing. Knives Out was pretty great. The Last Jedi wasn't.

 

[StarkRavingMad]

I'm not sure if it's a genuine subversion of expectations when "take over an IP and turn it into pure wokeshit" is just a cancerous practice and, like cancer itself, essentially mindless. For instance, when Rian Johnson raped the shit out of Star Wars, as badly as it was executed, I think he was actually intending a subversion of expectations, not just to crap on the source material or push some soy-filled agenda.

Outright SJWs actually hate the source material and its fans. Johnson's bullshit in Star Wars was almost as bad, though, because he was indifferent to the source materials, and it was obvious he didn't really care.

The first episode of this new series ended with a "shocking" death of one of the main characters.

To me, that is a hallmark signature of "subverting expectations" with writing these days.

 

[AnOminous]

The first episode of this new series ended with a "shocking" death of one of the main characters.

To me, that is a hallmark signature of "subverting expectations" with writing these days.

When done well, it's very pleasing. It's something that was unexpected and surprising, but when you go back, it was already signaled and was essentially inevitable. If you had actually already figured it out in advance from the clues, you get to feel really smart, but if you didn't, it doesn't make you feel like a dummy.

Doing it successfully implies you know and care what your audience actually wants more than they do, and when you pull your bait and switch, the audience will be so charmed by the switch that the bait is forgiven.

"Randomly kill someone" is rarely an inventive plot twist. It's subverting expectations, but not in a very interesting way.

 

[Kramer on the phone]

So I rewatched Looper. A Rian Johnson ‘joint’ that I remembered as a good execution of a simultaneously neat/dumb premise.

And looking back it is pretty good. Very layered. Good visual and audio storytelling. All of which have some obvious payoff. You can miss them and know what’s happening, just not all of what’s happening and how it all melds together.

There’s a scene where the main character has time with a hooker girl he’s sweet on. She doesn’t really like him. So it starts with her checking her time-piece, with an ambiguous look on her face, putting on her makeup, and then walking down a mirrored hallway. Acting and directing decisions coming together to tell you she isn’t really into this well before she outright says she’s not interested in being with Joe directly to him. This all happening when our main character is questioning his lifestyle, undergoing ennui and weariness with it. All of that. This too is another fake, unsatisfying thing.

What’s funny is that there is no subversion. At least not in the way he’s become notorious for. Jeff Daniels explains that he knows Joe the main character so well that he can manipulate him just by promising to take some of his savings away. This to coerce him into surrending his friend. Joe agrees, albeit with his arms tied, because he is a selfish guy. And by the end he kills himself to close his own loop because he has clarity on the damage he is causing. Pretty much a stock, servicable anti-hero story and ending.

All of these suggestions, both in the A plot and the little asides, are set up then payed off. They feel surprising because the plot moves quickly enough that you forget there was a set up until it's paid off. Because the story is actually confident in itself.

That and Rian's other films show he does subvert expectations he just does them well. Honestly i have a theory that TLJ is just him combining bits from some script for a SciFi adventure that never got picked up. Most of the concepts of TLJ are sound from an imaginative concept. Its just that its a bad Star Wars movie. Just like Looper would be a fucking awful Quantum Leap and Knives Out would be an awful Dynasty film and Brick an awful Filmore movie.

If there was a movie called "Space Battles" where they examine the people behind the war (who's financing our destruction) and the kid heroes say "fuck that" to fighting that ultimate good v evil battle people expect, and the Han Solo type doesn't have a heart of gold and the entire conflict revolves around fuel and logisitics (stuff that is arguably decides war than battles themselves) It would be extremely well liked. Everything about that sounds fucking awesome. Hell even that conflict with the chain of command is sort of neat, its just bullshit when you shove it in a Star Wars film.

Looper is a film all about the subversion of expectations. Think about the plot, every time travel meme is about killing baby hitler; Well how would people realistically act if you tried to kill a child irregardless of how evil he'll become (AKA SUBVERSION). Just the future too, Looper was at the near start of the dystopia trend in films (you know what i mean) the future looked awful, the cars and motorcycles were relatively nice but most people were homeless or struggling, only the murderers were doing well. no cool future tech either. guns degraded to the point that outside of not needing ammo they were shit at 5 yards out. those cool physic powers we all imagine in the future are little more than parlor tricks that even the women at the bars thought were played out. Relationships and dating culture has degraded so much that a rich JGL buys hookers rather than tries to get laid the old fashion way. Even his goals and passions aren't the typical ones that protagonists hold on to, his boss tells him France is fucked and to go to china and he does. Hell just the concept of work/capitalism ultimately leading to you killing yourself in the end is quite the subverted idea. For fucks sake Rian doesn't even allow a final battle, much like TLJ, there's a copout solution to the 3rd act. Rather than try to fight himself, JGL just offs himself instead.

Looper is hardcore subversion. Another film of his is Brick, which subverts the idea of adult themes and storylines dumbed down to high school. And does the opposite, everyones a teenager but they act like noir characters in their 30s from the 30s. Unless you're a tard you have to see how Rian subverts all the fucking time in his films. For fucks sake Knives out is a murder mystery were the murderer is actually the good girl. its the only murder mystery i know where the murderer is portrayed in an amazing light.

 

[Übertroon]

That and Rian's other films show he does subvert expectations he just does them well. Honestly i have a theory that TLJ is just him combining bits from some script for a SciFi adventure that never got picked up. Most of the concepts of TLJ are sound from an imaginative concept. Its just that its a bad Star Wars movie. Just like Looper would be a fucking awful Quantum Leap and Knives Out would be an awful Dynasty film and Brick an awful Filmore movie.

If there was a movie called "Space Battles" where they examine the people behind the war (who's financing our destruction) and the kid heroes say "fuck that" to fighting that ultimate good v evil battle people expect, and the Han Solo type doesn't have a heart of gold and the entire conflict revolves around fuel and logisitics (stuff that is arguably decides war than battles themselves) It would be extremely well liked. Everything about that sounds fucking awesome. Hell even that conflict with the chain of command is sort of neat, its just bullshit when you shove it in a Star Wars film.

Looper is a film all about the subversion of expectations. Think about the plot, every time travel meme is about killing baby hitler; Well how would people realistically act if you tried to kill a child irregardless of how evil he'll become (AKA SUBVERSION). Just the future too, Looper was at the near start of the dystopia trend in films (you know what i mean) the future looked awful, the cars and motorcycles were relatively nice but most people were homeless or struggling, only the murderers were doing well. no cool future tech either. guns degraded to the point that outside of not needing ammo they were shit at 5 yards out. those cool physic powers we all imagine in the future are little more than parlor tricks that even the women at the bars thought were played out. Relationships and dating culture has degraded so much that a rich JGL buys hookers rather than tries to get laid the old fashion way. Even his goals and passions aren't the typical ones that protagonists hold on to, his boss tells him France is fucked and to go to china and he does. Hell just the concept of work/capitalism ultimately leading to you killing yourself in the end is quite the subverted idea. For fucks sake Rian doesn't even allow a final battle, much like TLJ, there's a copout solution to the 3rd act. Rather than try to fight himself, JGL just offs himself instead.

Looper is hardcore subversion. Another film of his is Brick, which subverts the idea of adult themes and storylines dumbed down to high school. And does the opposite, everyones a teenager but they act like noir characters in their 30s from the 30s. Unless you're a tard you have to see how Rian subverts all the fucking time in his films. For fucks sake Knives out is a murder mystery were the murderer is actually the good girl. its the only murder mystery i know where the murderer is portrayed in an amazing light.

It's still kinda boring if your whole shtick is to subvert expectations. Especially as subverting themes and ideas is where the true meat of subversion lies, while the former is a rather shallow thing.

This is why Kotor 2 will forever haunt the franchise. Not because it was the best Star Wars story, or the worst, but because it took the core of Star Wars and highlighted flaws and alternate perspectives to its major ideas. Defeating the evil empire doesn't make all problems go away. There might have been legitimate reasons for why the war began in the first place. The force seeking balance can cut both ways. Decades of war will leave a lot of people damaged and angry. The galaxy is doomed if your choice is between apathetic protectors and self destructive psychopaths. Etc.

I don't think there is a single moment in The Last Jedi that I would consider clever. Unless Rian Johnson reveals years from now that he intentionally wrote the story into a dead end to spite Disney for giving him garbage to work with.

 

[Berrakh]

To be fair, copying KOTOR II would have played worse to general audiences. KOTOR II was disliked when it first came out. Maybe it would be worth it given hindsight. But it would not make TLJ a better initially received movie at all.

 

[AnOminous]

That and Rian's other films show he does subvert expectations he just does them well. Honestly i have a theory that TLJ is just him combining bits from some script for a SciFi adventure that never got picked up. Most of the concepts of TLJ are sound from an imaginative concept. Its just that its a bad Star Wars movie. Just like Looper would be a fucking awful Quantum Leap and Knives Out would be an awful Dynasty film and Brick an awful Filmore movie.

He also directed "Ozymandias," the best episode of Breaking Bad and, by implication, the best single episode of a television show ever aired. Of course it was also written by Moira Walley-Beckett, maybe the best writer on the show.

I can manage to forgive him for TLJ, as much of a giant steaming turd as he delivered. He had contempt for the material and it showed.

 

[Juan's Sombrero]

in another life, tareeq nasheed would have gotten an academy award for making this movie.

Instead of his subtle coming out party in "Buck Breaking". Ever notice how he keeps having issues with faggotry in the black community? I know most of them aren't fans of the alphabets (both kinds), but I started noticing it after he dissed a gay couple adopting black children that there might be something under the radar there.

Jordan Peele is a one trick pony that ran out of ideas in his first outing.

Everything he has done since Get Out has tried to replicate its appeal and failed miserably. Us is a fucking mess in every way possible, its narrative and themes make no fucking sense whatsoever. In less than a decade the man has reduced himself to a race grifter that makes shitty IdPol remakes of beloved classics.

The fact that he gets praised as a "modern master of horror" by journoscum and movie snobs is proof we live in clown world.

Peele lol

View attachment 2605841

Jordan Peele and his bitchmate, Key, went from self-aware racial comedy to, "White people being normal? We can't have that! There's gotta be some subtle race grievance we can grift from that."

 

[King Dead]

That and Rian's other films show he does subvert expectations he just does them well. Honestly i have a theory that TLJ is just him combining bits from some script for a SciFi adventure that never got picked up. Most of the concepts of TLJ are sound from an imaginative concept. Its just that its a bad Star Wars movie. Just like Looper would be a fucking awful Quantum Leap and Knives Out would be an awful Dynasty film and Brick an awful Filmore movie.

If there was a movie called "Space Battles" where they examine the people behind the war (who's financing our destruction) and the kid heroes say "fuck that" to fighting that ultimate good v evil battle people expect, and the Han Solo type doesn't have a heart of gold and the entire conflict revolves around fuel and logisitics (stuff that is arguably decides war than battles themselves) It would be extremely well liked. Everything about that sounds fucking awesome. Hell even that conflict with the chain of command is sort of neat, its just bullshit when you shove it in a Star Wars film.

Looper is a film all about the subversion of expectations. Think about the plot, every time travel meme is about killing baby hitler; Well how would people realistically act if you tried to kill a child irregardless of how evil he'll become (AKA SUBVERSION). Just the future too, Looper was at the near start of the dystopia trend in films (you know what i mean) the future looked awful, the cars and motorcycles were relatively nice but most people were homeless or struggling, only the murderers were doing well. no cool future tech either. guns degraded to the point that outside of not needing ammo they were shit at 5 yards out. those cool physic powers we all imagine in the future are little more than parlor tricks that even the women at the bars thought were played out. Relationships and dating culture has degraded so much that a rich JGL buys hookers rather than tries to get laid the old fashion way. Even his goals and passions aren't the typical ones that protagonists hold on to, his boss tells him France is fucked and to go to china and he does. Hell just the concept of work/capitalism ultimately leading to you killing yourself in the end is quite the subverted idea. For fucks sake Rian doesn't even allow a final battle, much like TLJ, there's a copout solution to the 3rd act. Rather than try to fight himself, JGL just offs himself instead.

Looper is hardcore subversion. Another film of his is Brick, which subverts the idea of adult themes and storylines dumbed down to high school. And does the opposite, everyones a teenager but they act like noir characters in their 30s from the 30s. Unless you're a tard you have to see how Rian subverts all the fucking time in his films. For fucks sake Knives out is a murder mystery were the murderer is actually the good girl. its the only murder mystery i know where the murderer is portrayed in an amazing light.

I mean, that's basically the plot of the OG Mobile Suit Gundam. You have the "good guys" Federation and the "bad guys" Zeon, but as the series progresses and you learn more about why the war started to begin with, it starts to make you rethink how clear those lines are. Not every Feddy is good, and not every Zeon is bad; a lot of people are caught up in this war that they don't really agree with but have to fight anyway. Hell, some characters even walk away from the whole conflict because they just can't take it anymore, or because they've found something more important they need to protect. And along the way, you have characters trying to figure out how to get supplies they need, political intrigue, military officers getting into fights over the proper course of action, and a whole lotta slapping.

But as you said, that works if the series is designed for that from the get go. Star Wars is not the place to soapbox about the military-industrial complex. When one side is led by an evil old man in a cloak that shoots lightning out of his hands, I'm sorry, but there's no bothsidesism you can do to convince me that the Rebels are anywhere near as bad.

 

[Berrakh]

I think Del Toro’s character, idk his name, was trying to tempt Poe with a cowardly outlook (live free, don’t join) so Poe might run but that was never a plausible threat. It would have maybe worked for a fake-out on a young Han Solo but not Poe, a huge follower by nature.

 

[Zbk3VmLfujjzjxBd43tL]

But as you said, that works if the series is designed for that from the get go. Star Wars is not the place to soapbox about the military-industrial complex. When one side is led by an evil old man in a cloak that shoots lightning out of his hands, I'm sorry, but there's no bothsidesism you can do to convince me that the Rebels are anywhere near as bad.

I don't know about that when Star Wars is all about redeeming the evil old man's second-in-command who's into torture and mass murder whenever he needs to make a point. And of course the Prequel Trilogy did have much more in the way of shades of grey where even the Jedi have no idea if what they're doing is right. The EU did subversions like that all the time, most famously KOTOR 2. Point is, it could work as a stand-alone Star Wars movie or even the focus of its own trilogy, it just absolutely doesn't work as a sequel to a trilogy that was decided to be nothing but a cash-in on nostalgia.

 

[Pokemonquistador2]

#NotAll, lol.

Lots of women who watched this show back in its prime just viewed it as it was: A raunchy sitcom about living an unrealistic lavish life in the big city while wearing runway clothes. Like I said in one of my posts: Escapist girly entertainment. The original series had an air of self-awareness to it as well. The show wasn't afraid to have their main characters have karma bite them in the ass every so often when it was called for, and whenever it did, it was pretty funny. Not saying the show was a masterpiece or anything, but it was likable enough for me back in the day. It became a "just turn my brain off and have fun while I'm taking a break from studying" kind of show for me.

Now, if you come across a girl who's like "Carrie is SO me!" or "I'm such a Miranda!" then yeah, those are the type of people who are red flags. Run away, don't walk.

From what I've seen with the overall "fan reception," though, people are absolutely hating the new series so far-- even the bitter wine aunts. Lots of fans are coming to the defense of many of the male characters that are constantly being shit on by this new series, and are hating on the new characters and the old characters who are acting detestable, surprisingly.

The original series' demographic was for single women, and the show made no mistakes about that. This new series was obviously made with only the "woke" crowd in mind, as it was all written by millennial woke people, and a bunch of the fans (who are women) are pissed with how the series has turned out so far. Fans wanted something like a lighthearted reunion series, and the series turned out to be all about death, preaching, and doing horrible stuff to your partner. To top it all off, one of the main four characters (and arguably the most popular one) isn't even in the series, and the explanation behind her absence is pathetic. And the outfits are hardly even interesting to look at, which is a really bad thing for a series that was known for its costuming/fashion.

Woke milennials over the recent years have vocally called Sex & The City "outdated." A lot of its humor was politically incorrect and very outdated for Current Year (tm). This new series feels like it is trying to "fix" the original show, hence why I consider it to be yet another subversion of expectations.

Sex & The City in 1998: "I don't believe in the Republican Party or the Democrat Party ... I just believe in parties."

Sex & The City in 2021-2022: "I proudly wore my pink pussy hat 5 years ago and quit being a lawyer because I didn't want to become part of the corrupt system that harms people of color! That's why I'm back in college to major in social justice!"

I had assumed that Sex & the City was, like The Golden Girls, a series about a bunch of sex-hungry gay men played by women in order to get the series premise past the censors. And now it seems that angry dangerhairs have taken over the series, aiming it towards their fellow dangerhairs and leaving its original fans in the lurch.

But as you said, that works if the series is designed for that from the get go. Star Wars is not the place to soapbox about the military-industrial complex. When one side is led by an evil old man in a cloak that shoots lightning out of his hands, I'm sorry, but there's no bothsidesism you can do to convince me that the Rebels are anywhere near as bad.

The Original Star Wars was never intended to be a serious look at war or future society. It's just a whizz-bang adventure serial with some Heroes Journey 101 stuff thrown in. If you really think about it, the structure of the Empire probably doesn't hold up to scrutiny, their technology is silly (why put a shield generator OUTSIDE the shield you're trying to protect?) and a lot of the weapon/ vehicle designs aren't practical. (Easily trippable legs on walking tanks.) There's also the problem of the Androids, who are basically treated as a slave race (if they're actually sentient,) or have no minds and only mimic intelligent behavior (so the audience's concern for their welfare is unwarranted.) There's nothing wrong with having a non-realistic space adventure that's just there to entertain an audience and inspire some kids' creativity, but you have too many StopHavingFunGuys who need to pretend that everything they watch is serious and scholarly, so their dads will stop calling them faggots.

EDIT: This isn't to say that you can't have serious Star War spinoffs that take a much more serious look at the material. The Hobbit is in the same universe as LOTR and the Silmarillion, after all. But each work in the series needs to define which audience it is for and stick to its own tone and purpose.

 

[Berrakh]

Subversion is a narrative tool but not content in of itself. The thing should make sense on its own merits, and just be presented in a misleading manner (and presented like that for a reason, not just as a surprise). That way something is always added, or “brought back” to continue the Inception reference in the OP

 

[Doctor of Autism]

I know I am bumping up a dead thread but I want to address something that is annoying when it comes to the topic of subversion.

I may be a fool if it was addressed already but the idea of "You're just mad because it didn't go the way you wanted it too"

That argument is a common one fans use to strawman people into whining babies for not liking the thing they like. There are many issues with this fallacy that I want to bring up.

1. The story leads you onto expect things so of course it would be annoying if the subversion makes the story go in the way that the audience didn't expect which leads into the next point:

2. If the subversion leads to something inferior to what was expected, then of course it would piss someone off, to use food analogies it's like replacing a good meal with a lower quality one.

3. It is also natural to have expectations going into watch something, to get rid of the idea of expectations and just accept content just for the sake of it is fundamentally not human.

 

[starborn427614]

I know I am bumping up a dead thread but I want to address something that is annoying when it comes to the topic of subversion.

I may be a fool if it was addressed already but the idea of "You're just mad because it didn't go the way you wanted it too"

That argument is a common one fans use to strawman people into whining babies for not liking the thing they like. There are many issues with this fallacy that I want to bring up.

1. The story leads you onto expect things so of course it would be annoying if the subversion makes the story go in the way that the audience didn't expect which leads into the next point:

2. If the subversion leads to something inferior to what was expected, then of course it would piss someone off, to use food analogies it's like replacing a good meal with a lower quality one.

3. It is also natural to have expectations going into watch something, to get rid of the idea of expectations and just accept content just for the sake of it is fundamentally not human.

I sort of agree with this, but on the other hand expectations aren't static. Some people overly hype things up in the heads and this is where I'd say it's fair to imply they're being unreasonable with said expectations. Either way, it's not a hard or fast thing. Media is meant to be entertaining first and foremost and if you didn't enjoy it, you're not automatically in the wrong for expressing a negative opinion.

 

[Doctor of Autism]

I sort of agree with this, but on the other hand expectations aren't static. Some people overly hype things up in the heads and this is where I'd say it's fair to imply they're being unreasonable with said expectations. Either way, it's not a hard or fast thing. Media is meant to be entertaining first and foremost and if you didn't enjoy it, you're not automatically in the wrong for expressing a negative opinion.

Yeah that is perfectly fair. If expectations are extremely unreasonable and baseless, then yeah it is your fault when they aren't met.

 

[Berrakh]

I know I am bumping up a dead thread but I want to address something that is annoying when it comes to the topic of subversion.

I may be a fool if it was addressed already but the idea of "You're just mad because it didn't go the way you wanted it too"

That argument is a common one fans use to strawman people into whining babies for not liking the thing they like. There are many issues with this fallacy that I want to bring up.

1. The story leads you onto expect things so of course it would be annoying if the subversion makes the story go in the way that the audience didn't expect which leads into the next point:

2. If the subversion leads to something inferior to what was expected, then of course it would piss someone off, to use food analogies it's like replacing a good meal with a lower quality one.

3. It is also natural to have expectations going into watch something, to get rid of the idea of expectations and just accept content just for the sake of it is fundamentally not human.

As someone who does like some things that got hate-trained by (other) autists I sort of understand the opposing sentiment.

But the answer is to challenge their expectations as inferior, not to hide behind a thought-terminating cliche.

 

[Kari Kamiya]

I know I am bumping up a dead thread but I want to address something that is annoying when it comes to the topic of subversion.

I may be a fool if it was addressed already but the idea of "You're just mad because it didn't go the way you wanted it too"

That argument is a common one fans use to strawman people into whining babies for not liking the thing they like. There are many issues with this fallacy that I want to bring up.

1. The story leads you onto expect things so of course it would be annoying if the subversion makes the story go in the way that the audience didn't expect which leads into the next point:

2. If the subversion leads to something inferior to what was expected, then of course it would piss someone off, to use food analogies it's like replacing a good meal with a lower quality one.

3. It is also natural to have expectations going into watch something, to get rid of the idea of expectations and just accept content just for the sake of it is fundamentally not human.

It honestly does depend on the media in question. There are just some people who literally cannot be pleased with the creator's/director's vision no matter what, and they may-or-may-not be able to articulate their thoughts on the matter so the best you'll get out of them is "It just sucks, okay????"

Like to this day, there's some One Piece fans out there who are still butthurt over Luffy's Gear 5 and hate what it is instead of seeing it as Oda having fun with his manga. It's not a "subversion" because despite there being some serious moments, Luffy himself is not someone who would become edgy and dark with his power-ups, yet quite a number of people were literally expecting him to go all broody and edgy-dark like how the other big shounen titles have.

Spoiler: plot twist spoilers, sorry