Subverting Expectations: The Megathread - Or How Baby Dick Creators ‘Sort of Forgot’ What an Anti-Climax Is

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

You know what would be a great subversions of my expectations?

Not having some faggot bring up Kimba every time the Lion King is Mentioned.

WE ALL KNOW ABOUT IT, AND NOBODY FUCKING CARES.

 

[Oats12345]

Hate to be that guy but Lion King didn't take much from Kimba. This autist literally watched all Kimba content to find comparisons

If a two hour video is not worth your time, the too long didn't watch version is that basically the only things Lion King and Kimba have in common is that they are about royal lions, take place in Africa, and many animals are used in both but that's because those animals are common in Africa.

Really Lion King takes more from Shakespeare while Kimba is more of it's own brand of weirdness with weird episodes such as Elephants being genocided en-masse for being dicks, constant use of Kimba's father's corpse as a disguise, and a sadomasochist warthog. The themes are very different as well, and most of these comparisons came from lots of misinformation.

But back on topic, I find it really annoying how Disney nowadays tries to be subversive by constantly making fun of tropes they have done before as though they are ashamed of their old movies. It feels pretty disrespectful and makes Disney feel insecure about it's past.

I hate Disney lately as they seem to be ashamed of things that made them who they are today. I hate how their latest animation movies don't have fun villains anymore.

 

[AnOminous]

You've reversed cause and effect. Mamet made interesting theatre in part of his family's fun with dialogue. Both his movies and theatre had this kind of labyranthine dialogue that was honed over the years by the linguistic games his family played on daily basis.

I think the genetic origin is that Mamet influenced well, nearly everyone who wrote dialogue, but it went through Aaron Sorkin, who adopted this general dialogical theme to television, and then Whedon picked it up from there. He wasn't actually bad at it, and I think he unfairly gets a lot of blame for the whole vapid snarky dialogue that now dominates pop culture, but he sort of was the source of it at least in low level pop culture, especially with Buffy. I never really shared the enthusiasm many people seemed to have for that, but it wasn't actually bad.

You know what would be a great subversions of my expectations?

Not having some faggot bring up Kimba every time the Lion King is Mentioned.

WE ALL KNOW ABOUT IT, AND NOBODY FUCKING CARES.

I don't know, any time I can talk about what absolute shit, what stingy thieves, Disney are, is fine with me. I didn't do it this time, but seriously, they stole that shit. It should be brought up at every available opportunity.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Kimba's creators' own family doesn't think the Lion King stole from Kimba, a localizer dude is behind the controversy

I think you have to read between the lines when you read a japanese business statement. When his son days he doesn't want to sully his father's legacy with such accusations, it is a very polite way of saying that there is something to these accusations. The guy's father is known as the japanese disney. They have little to gain from a mudflinging contest.

It's a cultural thing. Just like an american company does the PR thing to lie and say they knew nothing, because it's a litigous country and admitting fault/inspiration is a legal risk, so a japanese company knows it reflects badly on them if they start such a fight, even when justified.

 

[Doctor of Autism]

I hate Disney lately as they seem to be ashamed of things that made them who they are today. I hate how their latest animation movies don't have fun villains anymore.

Yeah this is especially annoying. Disney just seems to go out of their way to make every villain boring whether it's remakes of their good movies or their new movies where they try hard to subvert the audience's expectations by always making some rando the main villain in the last act.

 

[AnOminous]

It's a cultural thing. Just like an american company does the PR thing to lie and say they knew nothing, because it's a litigous country and admitting fault/inspiration is a legal risk, so a japanese company knows it reflects badly on them if they start such a fight, even when justified.

You can easily look at the two products and see one was stolen from the other. Japanese reticence can't contradict what is obvious to the sight. The fact they didn't pick a fight about it makes it no less obvious. It's embarrassing and Disney should at the very least have apologized for it.

 

[Oats12345]

Yeah this is especially annoying. Disney just seems to go out of their way to make every villain boring whether it's remakes of their good movies or their new movies where they try hard to subvert the audience's expectations by always making some rando the main villain in the last act.

Hell Soul didn't even have a villain. I really hope that doesn't start becoming normal

 

[Doctor of Autism]

Hell Soul didn't even have a villain. I really hope that doesn't start becoming normal

I mean that movie worked without one and didn't really need one

 

[Oats12345]

I mean that movie worked without one and didn't really need one

The animation was nice. But it wasn't my cup of tea saddly. I just wish Disney would make more villains that are fun to watch like Hades or Jafar

 

[Lemmingwise]

I just wish Disney would make more villains that are fun to watch like Hades or Jafar

Seems like disney is mostly interested in trying to rehabilitate villain types. Doesn't seem to work all that well.

I think the overbearing mother in tangled kinda worked tho.

You know what would be a great subversions of my expectations?

Not having some faggot bring up Kimba every time the Lion King is Mentioned.

WE ALL KNOW ABOUT IT, AND NOBODY FUCKING CARES.

Considering it was part of my rant on why subversions of expectations is a poor way to make something memorable, it was thematically the right choice to bring up kimba.

Eternal truths over momentary misdirections.

 

[Xerxes IX]

Yeah this is especially annoying. Disney just seems to go out of their way to make every villain boring whether it's remakes of their good movies or their new movies where they try hard to subvert the audience's expectations by always making some rando the main villain in the last act.

I wonder if this is because they got so much flak for their fun or interesting villains being "queer-coded".

I hate Disney lately as they seem to be ashamed of things that made them who they are today. I hate how their latest animation movies don't have fun villains anymore.

Disney is ashamed to be Disney in a way that feels completely ingenuine. Reminds me of those narcissists who are ex-edgelords and now woke who swear up and down that they have repented and are on the morally good path now. Except outsiders can see all they're doing is jerking themselves off about how good they are now and fishing for praise.

 

[Berrakh]

The animation was nice. But it wasn't my cup of tea saddly. I just wish Disney would make more villains that are fun to watch like Hades or Jafar

Hades was entirely James Woods being high in a funny mood during the audition

 

[Dang Woodchucks!]

Let's talk about subverting expectations that aren't there to begin with, and seeing Disney just loves setting themselves up to be the punching bag, we'll keep the looking glass on them.

What the fuck is it with these "villain"-centric perspective-flip retcons? They handwave shit as it being "alternate continuity" (for now) but you just know there's more than a handful of Grima Wormtongue-looking chucklefucks that would love to make these "the real thing" even at the expense of the classics.

Maleficent was alright, but even people that like it prefer to just watch and not question anything, especially how the fae named Maleficent was duped, taken advantage of, and perhaps even bamboozled by the big bad mansplainer. The petty evil bitch that turned into a fucking dragon is really just another victim of … ugh, (white) men.

I haven't checked out the sequel, but the utter lack of "YAAAS KWEEN SLAY" bullshit that the first one's release was surrounded by never materialized for the sequel, so I don't take that as a good sign.

And here we have the most recent shitshow. Cruella. They're actually going to give a backstory to a character even pettier than Maleficent. And the high point of that film is... Cruella's mom (or stepmom? I really don't care.) gets dropkicked by a Dalmatian off a cliff, because the plot demanded it be so, and by God, I had yet laughed at something so hard as I did at those CGI dogs being accessories to murder.

I can at least, infer that Maleficent is at least when played by Angelina Jolie, kinda hot, got that MILF thing going for her. I see why some people simp for her, and there's the no end of fanfiction that goes "BUT WHAT IF GOOD PERSON BAD AND BAD PERSON GOOD?!?" that inevitably was the real catalyst for this. But as for everything else, why'd you need her to be a victim to some fuckwit? You end up taking away everything that made Maleficent interesting to start with!

If we get a Scar movie, will he be a glorious Nazi Commander who didn'du nuffin? I hope so!

 

[Calandrino]

What the fuck is it with these "villain"-centric perspective-flip retcons? They handwave shit as it being "alternate continuity" (for now) but you just know there's more than a handful of Grima Wormtongue-looking chucklefucks that would love to make these "the real thing" even at the expense of the classics.

It's wokeness (and the Jews) of course. Aladdin is about PoC, Lion King is set in Wakanda and has a Nazi villain, Beauty and the Beast already had a "strong female lead" and a toxic male villain, so in those cases straightforward remakes are acceptable. Sleeping Beauty is about a knight in shining armour saving a passive female protagonist from an evil female antagonist with a nonconsensual kiss. Not much you can do with that, other than turn the whole thing upside down: the knight is basically useless, and Maleficent only became edgy and goth because a Nice Guy metaphorically raped her. Notwithstanding the word "maleficent" being a real word that basically means "evil"; what were her parents thinking?

Incidentally (and not especially relevant to Maleficent) the need for white women to forgive themselves for being awful people who have done horrible things is a theme I notice fairly often in current media. They seem to like to be told that they're terrible but it's actually everyone else's fault and they have an unbreakable inner strength if only they would believe in themselves. I can't tell where the brainwashing ends and the wish-fulfillment begins.

So probably we're not getting a perspective-flipped Chernabog movie, sadly.

 

[BScCollateral]

What the fuck is it with these "villain"-centric perspective-flip retcons?

Started with Wicked, I think.
And ... I like the idea. Villains are often more interesting than the heroes (The hero in Universal's Dracula, Black Cat, and The Mummy were all played by the same guy, but nobody thinks of those as "David Manners Films" instead of "Lugosi and Karloff" films.

 

[Dang Woodchucks!]

Started with Wicked, I think.
And ... I like the idea. Villains are often more interesting than the heroes (The hero in Universal's Dracula, Black Cat, and The Mummy were all played by the same guy, but nobody thinks of those as "David Manners Films" instead of "Lugosi and Karloff" films.

I don't mind having villains as protagonists. What I despise is people trying to retcon the villains into retroactive victims of the big meanie world. And I'm not saying there aren't villains that have valid excuses to do what they do, but when the backstory changes and and the new narrative contradicts everything already established (Silly Aurora, turns out the evil fae that cursed you to sleep forever is just misunderstood and really, really loves you as a mother... really!) they aren't adding anything new, they just want to break down the original and put their fanfic as the "troo and honest" story.

I dunno if it's because they're shit writers or because they're using the wrong characters to retroactively rehabilitate. I guess what I mean is if a Scar movie ever came out, I don't want to see Mufasa stuffing his brother into a locker and fucking his girlfriend in front of him. I do want to seejust what makes him grow into the ruthless manipulator that usurped his brother's throne.

If he has a valid excuse like maybe their father always preferred Mufasa to an unreasonable degree, maybe Mufasa likeSimba was at one point a gullible fuck-up and Scar never let it go, making him erratic and think "If anyone ends up screwing him off the Pride, might as well be me and not some other schmuck!"

I dunno. Maybe they're just movies and I should really just lol calm down.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

I guess what I mean is if a Scar movie ever came out, I don't want to see Mufasa stuffing his brother into a locker and fucking his girlfriend in front of him.

Speak for yourself, I 100% want a movie of Mufasa bullying the shit out of Scar.

 

[Berrakh]

For me there’s a certain insecurity in making the villain a victim or whatever else exculpates a similar or greater level of guilt. They can’t explore why villainy appealed to someone in a compelling way apparently.

 

[Bunny Tracks]

I don't care if this is me bringing up AoT again, I'm just gonna say it:

I did not see Eren turning into a tree at the end, let alone him being the one that killed his mom, and that he only did that, and basically everything he does in the entire series, including genociding 80% of the world, because he couldn't nut up and tell Mikasa he loved her.

I know I made a joke about the latter in the thread, but I didn't think for one second that I was gonna be right, or that he went that fucking far with it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not mad about it. I actually love it, and think it's the funniest thing in anime history, but fucking hell, I'm still in shock that it actually happened.

 

[Doctor of Autism]

I don't care if this is me bringing up AoT again, I'm just gonna say it:

I did not see Eren turning into a tree at the end, let alone him being the one that killed his mom, and that he only did that, and basically everything he does in the entire series, including genociding 80% of the world, because he couldn't nut up and tell Mikasa he loved her.

I know I made a joke about the latter in the thread, but I didn't think for one second that I was gonna be right, or that he went that fucking far with it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not mad about it. I actually love it, and think it's the funniest thing in anime history, but fucking hell, I'm still in shock that it actually happened.

The funniest part about that whole shit to me is that somehow was the justification to Eren that the future was set in stone despite the fact he literally did jack shit to change his own fate. Apparently changing your own fate is too much effort but guess Eren really is the CWC of Shounen protagonists