Suicide shouldnt be percieved as something bad

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I guess that sounds cool but this idea often manifests in mass shootings and other criminal behaviour since they have nothing left to live for and are mentally ill
I would heavily disagree. What you're referencing is psychopathy, sociopathy, which are generally characterized by anti-social behaviors such as a lack of empathy, impulsivity, and a tendency towards manipulation. Those types of mental conditions lead to depression, but I don't think there is evidence to believe that depression in itself would directly lead to any of these other mental conditions. On the contrary, depression generally leads to feels of apathy and a loss of interest, which is why while I think suicidal people would be in a better position to do cool things, they are often held back from doing anything by depression.
 
I get the "suicide is selfish" argument.

But if I am living in some sort of agony that I can't find my way out of, I'm not placing potential triggering other's stigmas around death above my own pain and autonomy. Maybe if we stopped trying to make everyone happy and cushion their feelings we could take better care of ourselves and feel more authentic, and less suicidal.
 
If you had the capacity to derive a lot of subjective, even ephemeral pleasure from your life by going on "adventures" and doing "awesome" things, you probably wouldn't be contemplating suicide in the first place.

That seems intuitively obvious and I've never understood why people think stuff like this is useful advice - nobody ever killed himself because he forgot to do all the stuff that that would've otherwise made living enjoyable.
 
Unless you are at an endgame scenario, suicide is just a stupid option. I'm not gonna argue the OPs point because he's right, it is indeed an option.
But there are so many that choose this option because of convince.
They can see the consequences of their actions in the immediate future, but not the long term consequences of fighting through criticism and learning to be better, because that takes work.

You break everything in an instant, but to build it back up takes an eternity.

You have to work, in order for things to get better. And they don't want to do that work
 
It depends on how you value life, or if you attach any sort of meaning to life. Numerous philosophers advocated for the act of suicide, however many of them were 19th and 20th-century philosophical pessimists and nihilists. Some philosophers like David Hume viewed suicide as an outright insult to God. Maybe suicide can be a moral act if you are sacrificing yourself to save many lives, or you are sick and want to be rid of the pain of going through years of treatment. But the only issue is it all comes down to subjectivity.

Let's say there's a man—in his mind, he is sacrificing himself to save his family the grief of dying of cancer. However, he doesn't tell them and just kills himself. Well, now you have a grieving family with a dead father AND they later find out he had cancer and didn't tell them. Also, what is sick? Maybe someone feels a little sad and they kill themselves because they are "sick" with grief.

I would always encourage people who have suicidal thoughts to seek help or talk to someone about them.

Edit: unless you're a pedo or rapist, then yeah you should absolutely self-immolate yourself
What exactly did David Hume say? My understanding is that he was an atheist, openly so too.
 
If you had the capacity to derive a lot of subjective, even ephemeral pleasure from your life by going on "adventures" and doing "awesome" things, you probably wouldn't be contemplating suicide in the first place.

That seems intuitively obvious and I've never understood why people think stuff like this is useful advice - nobody ever killed himself because he forgot to do all the stuff that that would've otherwise made living enjoyable.
I was about to harp on this point.

Like you said, suicidals don't have properly functioning emotions in the first place. They're not all that stereotypical "oh i'm sad i'm going lay around all day" types, but they don't enjoy life to begin with, are often very sad, very low energy, maybe constantly anxious. Not in an emotional state suitable to volition or one where they would expect (though it may not be true)

At the same time, you said you don't understand why people think it's helpful, and I think the intention is more to talk the person down. Try to cheer them up. It's not going to work, of course, but it's usually someone that has no experience feeling that way and so their understanding of it is a little shallow. Same as dipshits that think a depressed person can just will themselves to be happy. (Or dipshits that believe anybody can will themselves into any emotional state.)


SECULAR REASON NOT TO KILL YOURSELF
Suicide is extremely cruel to inflict on friends and family; regardless of the bullshit that suicidals talk themselves into, most people's family and friends (and even other people you may not consider friends but who are in your life) are deeply effected, often traumatized. If you know anyone that has suffered a sudden death in their circle like that you know how much it fucks them up. (Unless it's happened to you and that's why you're suicidal, in which case I'll give you a pass on that part.) That is an incredible cruel thing to casually force on someone else for causes that are almost always temporary.

Suicide is like throwing a grenade into a big social web far bigger than yourself. You end your own suffering but you multiply it, several times over, in all the people you harm, prick.

Also, you don't want to be a pussy bitch, do you?

RELIGIOUS/SPIRITUAL REASONS NOT TO KILL YOURSELF
You were created with reason for the (primary) purpose of cultivating virtue and flourishing, which is exercised in large part by serving others (which I'd include nature as part of). Most people, myself included, are terrible at this. Struggle and turmoil is a necessary part of this, including grief, the most intense form of suffering a person can know, as it involves a sort of miniaturized experience of death.

Your life does not belong to you, at least in that sense that people normally think. Your right to life is inalienable. You cannot give it away or surrender it because it goes against the very nature of what you were created for and your true nature as a human being. It is an offense to God and the nature of creation itself to engage in a selfish act of self-obliteration, and in its finality it closes off any hope of reconciliation. I am not convinced that suicides go to Hell, in fact I have a hard time believing that. But I can absolutely believe that it closes off some better, ideal state.


The only grounds on which you can possibly defend suicide are in situations where there is a reasonably high probability that death is the ultimate outcome, like a suicide attack in war, suicide in defiance, mercy-killing and self-mercy-killing of a terminally injured/sick person, and so on. Note that most of these are of a military nature and/or are foregone conclusions that the suicide merely fulfills.
 
If you had the capacity to derive a lot of subjective, even ephemeral pleasure from your life by going on "adventures" and doing "awesome" things, you probably wouldn't be contemplating suicide in the first place.

That seems intuitively obvious and I've never understood why people think stuff like this is useful advice - nobody ever killed himself because he forgot to do all the stuff that that would've otherwise made living enjoyable.
There are some people with more manic psychological predispositions who make stupid and rash decisions. KF gets blamed regularly for the one fucking idiot troon who set themselves on fire because they were bent out of shape over something or another.

And they aren't forgetting to do things that make life enjoyable, they feel trapped by expectations, routine, etc. without taking into account that expectations and routine aren't god. Like that one 24 y/o Japanese chick who jumped off a building because she was being overworked (extremely seriously, to be fair. Allegedly 10 hours of sleep a week) instead of just, you know...quitting her job.

People kill themselves all the time to escape the oppressiveness of their life. Changing your frame of reference can be really helpful (especially for younger people), although imo a bit of occasional memento mori is a good thing for everyone. It helps put things in perspective and remind you the experience is what's really important.

SECULAR REASON NOT TO KILL YOURSELF
My secular reasoning is that you've got an eternity to be dead and a very short while to be alive, so it's sort of dumb not to see it through.

Also your reasoning only works if someone's actually got family and friends.
 
OP is a faggot.

Suicide is the most selfish thing in the world. The pain you leave behind when you commit it is immeasurable and I have no sympathy. I feel bad for the friends and family.
 
You wanna die, so who cares.
After recovering from suicide ideation after trauma/mental health issues, I basically adopted this view and did things I wouldn't have ever seen myself doing a year before. I've gotten my grades up, made new friends, made money and will be travelling soon, and a bunch of other stuff. Hell, a year ago driving freaked me out to the point of trembling, and a month ago I got my license and now I drive daily - because knowing that the worst that can happen is just dying isn't as offputting as it was before
Dying and not dying is just 0 and 1 - like others here have said, a gun to the roof of your head and a freak BMX accident are both dying, one's just more fun.
I feel like depression comes about from a lack of agency, ie feeling like you can't really do or change what you want to and feeling powerless. Remembering that you can just break from everything to do what you want is wholly reassuring
Fuck what your therapist might think, it's better to be reckless than to not be at all. It takes some self reflection and thinking outside the box but I feel like 95% of people can get over it
:feels:
 
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There are some people with more manic psychological predispositions who make stupid and rash decisions. KF gets blamed regularly for the one fucking idiot troon who set themselves on fire because they were bent out of shape over something or another.
That is true, for some people/situations it is mania that drives the impulse. Like they have a huge amount of energy but underneath there is something still sick inside of them.

People kill themselves all the time to escape the oppressiveness of their life.
Very good way of putting it.

The suicidal generally doesn't want to die, they just want to not exist. And that's a distinction that's often lost on people that haven't experienced it, but it's meaningful. Life is putting them under a great deal of stress, they are trapped in it, they often don't really want to kill themselves (suicide is perceived with a great deal of fear) but it's like jumping from a tall building to escape a fire.

I had a while, some two years ago, where I was like that. Some of it I don't really want to talk about even on here, with the anonymity, but I was having a really intense anger, and anxiety and sadness cycle. I'd be extremely sad, like feeling groggy/drunk, on the verge of bursting into tears, unable to do anything, drained. Then it's like my body would rally itself to anger - try to fight it out - and I mean extreme anger. Want to curbstomp someone, fistfight strangers. Rage attack. And then that would freak me out and the anxiety attack (like wanting to flee) would kick in, a sort of deep fear. I felt completely out of control. A good day meant I was just deeply unhappy/sick instead of being on the verge of hyperventilating all day, wake up, suffer, go to bed feeling dread at the idea of having to wake up and do it again. When I got a gaming desktop I just sat on that all day long, for a time, and as bad as that may sound I credit it for me pulling through that whole semester.

Now imagine living like that every day for months on end. You do it solely for other people, and those other people are dicks. They don't give a shit. Don't care. Don't take it seriously. Blame you for going through something that you don't understand, is scaring the hell out of you, and that you're only suffering through for their ungrateful sakes. I did have a friend who showed a concern for my wellbeing, in a very friendly/unintrusive way, and it (obviously) did not escape my notice or my estimation of his quality as a person.

The only thing that fixed it was a change of position (different job, same workplace). Removed me from my main stressors, gave me something that felt meaningful (and had positive human connection, in its own way) every day, and by giving me some relief it allowed me to kind of normalize. By about half a year in I had undergone what I think might be described as a spiritual/internal transformation.

Which might sound absurd for as much of a cunt as I can be on here, but it is true. Started to have these epiphanies all the time, revelatory insight into something that I'd later learn was a philosophical/theological position someone far smarter and better-spoken than myself had figured out long ago. Much happier and with a sense of purpose, both personal and divine. Happy on most days. Stressors don't bother me remotely like they used to. Able to touch other people in meaningful ways, like helping to heal someone else (young woman, in fact) with a similar problem. Feeling old hatreds start to break down.

It was a gradual process but I feel like most of it can symbolically be traced to an experience I had. When I describe this, it was not like some schizophrenic hallucination, it was basically a very vivid daydream. A fancy. But I could sense that the magnolia trees, which at the time were in bloom, were alive and were sort of tittering among themselves, in a state of excitement, anticipating the new world and a sort of healing of society and the land (a distinct entity from the tree), which especially meant a lot to me as it changed my perspective on a place that I had otherwise grown to hate. Sort of a reconciliation with the land. I don't know how to explain it other than that it was like a daydream (came from within the mind, like a knowing, rather than the senses) but felt absolutely real, which is how it went with the other stuff.

The strangest thing about the bad period is that nowadays I can almost barely relate to myself. Like it just seems surreal looking back on it. The shit that was bothering me seems so incredibly petty that I'm almost at a loss to explain it. But it was very real to me at the time.

Also your reasoning only works if someone's actually got family and friends.
If a person really wasn't going to leave behind any damage that would remove most of the secular grounds for opposing it. At that point your argument would come down to some paternalist thing that they're not enjoying their life properly. I'd hate to see someone who's all alone kill themself, as I think it can be turned around, but it would be only to their detriment.

Depending on age it MAY NOT turn itself around. A huge chunk of suicides are lonely old people, and it's the fact most people don't know that that just goes to prove their predicament.
 
On the hand of cases where a person isn't suffering from some horrible terminal illness or condition then sure, if an adult truly hates their life so much and constantly talks about it and no amount of support or help has made them stop, then drive them to the nearest cliff or tallest building and let them decide for themselves

on the other hand, suicide is the most extreme option in any case, and almost every survivor, especially those who survived jumping off of high places, always say as soon as they do it they immediately are filled with regret and realize every problem in life can be mitigated but dying cannot
and as always with this sort of stuff, I put more blame on the society and culture for this sort of shit than the individual
who would of thought that having so much nihilistic media that glorifies how pointless life is and needing to be worried about the affairs of everyone except those around you and yourself isn't good
 
Suicide indicates a weak mind and weak genes if it isn't cancer/chronic illness related. Let the cattle cull itself instead of forcing generational misery on people.
 
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