Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

[Ghostse]

the game is set in 1920's Portland and the Klan has already made itself the bad guys

sorry to hear your game is gay & woke.

Does anyone have any suggestion for a system that would be good for playing semi-historical 16th/17th century adventures without overwhelming pirate focus and higher power level. Think French Wars of Religion/Three Musketeers rather than Captain Blood.

The options I have considered:
7th Sea 1e: Would require way too much reskinning even after throwing out the setting and magic. It also might be a bit too lethal. Could be okay if I just rename the nations and cities and use a map of Europe?
7th Sea 2e: Easier to reskin, but leans way too much into narrative game.
Miseries and Misfortunes: Should be exactly what I want, but it's low-powered OSR. It has saving throw vs. artillery though.
Helveczia: Also close to what I want, but it's also fairly low-powered OSR and has too many fantasy elements. It does have cool national stereotypes and priest magic though.
HERO 6e: The tools are there, but I'd have to build the entire game myself.

I would speculate WHFRP could be modified to your ends.

Sadly the only games I think about in that time period are super gay.

 

[The Ugly One]

Well I didn't know that so I've learned something. Cheers. But I'll note that @Henri Barbusse said he was setting this in 16th/17th century and referenced The Three Musketeers as an inspiration. I've a feeling ship cannon in this era were solid shot. But I could be wrong.

One of the first known uses of explosive shells in Europe was by the Republic of Venice in the 14th century. France used carcass shells in the 17th century. I can't seem to find any evidence of bombs being used on 16th century vessels...too unreliable at the time, the fuses had to be lit first, and you really only seem find them being used with mortars.

 

[Glory To Arztotska]

I looked it up and Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden implemented canister shots in his army in early 17th century which is explosive enough.

Isn't that more like a cannon-scale shotgun shell, though?

 

[Overly Serious]

One of the first known uses of explosive shells in Europe was by the Republic of Venice in the 14th century. France used carcass shells in the 17th century. I can't seem to find any evidence of bombs being used on 16th century vessels...too unreliable at the time, the fuses had to be lit first, and you really only seem find them being used with mortars.

Thanks. I was aware mortars existed by then but my mental image of ship cannon at that point is just solid shot. And I don't know I'd model canister shots as explosives. I thought they were more like a packed load of shrapnel. But in any case, in Hero 6e I think this is all just a Blast Area effect. I don't recall that being so onerous. You roll to place the area accurately (miss and it deviates), roll once for damage, apply to everyone in the affected area. Or am I missing something? In any case, is firing cannon at people going to be a regular occurrence? For 16/17th naval warfare I'd just treat it as a normal - if rather powerful - single ranged attack weapon and point it at a ship.

 

[Henri Barbusse]

Thanks. I was aware mortars existed by then but my mental image of ship cannon at that point is just solid shot. And I don't know I'd model canister shots as explosives. I thought they were more like a packed load of shrapnel. But in any case, in Hero 6e I think this is all just a Blast Area effect. I don't recall that being so onerous. You roll to place the area accurately (miss and it deviates), roll once for damage, apply to everyone in the affected area. Or am I missing something? In any case, is firing cannon at people going to be a regular occurrence? For 16/17th naval warfare I'd just treat it as a normal - if rather powerful - single ranged attack weapon and point it at a ship.

Cannons in bases (and I guess vehicles) are statted up as multipowers with regular Ranged Killing Attack against walls and similar targets; line AoE, No Range, Ranged Killing Attack if shooting forward (For people unfamiliar with HERO, No Range means that the target point has to be adjacent to the user, so the line area of effect would effectively start at the cannon and extend from there); and Explosive AoE Ranged Killing Attack for modelling all types of shots that are explosive/shrapnel etc.

The issue isn't that AoE is onerous, the issue is that specifically Explosive AoE is onerous. The Explosive modifier on AoE makes the attack only have full power at the point of impact and then it loses 1 Damage Class for every 2m of distance from there. So a 4d6 RKA would do 4d6 at the point of impact, 4d6-1 2m away, 3d6+1d3 4m away, 3d6 6m away and so on. That's just way too tedious to calculate. It's simpler when calculating normal, not killing damage, but it still takes too much time.

 

[Overly Serious]

Cannons in bases (and I guess vehicles) are statted up as multipowers with regular Ranged Killing Attack against walls and similar targets; line AoE, No Range, Ranged Killing Attack if shooting forward (For people unfamiliar with HERO, No Range means that the target point has to be adjacent to the user, so the line area of effect would effectively start at the cannon and extend from there); and Explosive AoE Ranged Killing Attack for modelling all types of shots that are explosive/shrapnel etc.

Bases and vehicles are the same rules with a base just being a vehicle that doesn't move so that part yes, will be the same whether the canon is in a fort or on a ship. As to the rest, I think the best question is what do you want them to be? Is it going to be a common occurrence for cannon to be shooting people rather than ships? How much weight to your decision do you want cannon firing at people to be? I found Hero 6e to work well for both realistic and semi-realistic normal scale people and combat.

That said, anyway:

The issue isn't that AoE is onerous, the issue is that specifically Explosive AoE is onerous. The Explosive modifier on AoE makes the attack only have full power at the point of impact and then it loses 1 Damage Class for every 2m of distance from there. So a 4d6 RKA would do 4d6 at the point of impact, 4d6-1 2m away, 3d6+1d3 4m away, 3d6 6m away and so on. That's just way too tedious to calculate. It's simpler when calculating normal, not killing damage, but it still takes too much time.

You're overcomplicating this and I think you may also have dropped a partial DC in there based on the +1d3. Here's how I would do it and how the book recommends:

I'll do a normal blast first for explanatory purposes. Someone hurls a small keg of gunpowder onto the ship's deck at the feet of some hapless sailor. Lets say it does 6d6 base damage.

I roll to hit. I succeed and the explosive lands exactly where I want. It does 6d6 Normal Damage. I roll and get: 1, 3, 4, 5, 5 and 6. The hapless sailor at ground zero is going to take all of that which is 24 STUN damage and 6 BODY damage. (For everyone reading along, you just add up the results to get Stun and you count the dice for body damage, with 6's counting double and 1's not counting).

There are a couple of sailors standing 3m away and another standing 5m away. According to the Explosion rules, you remove the highest dice first, reducing by 1 for every 2m. So the two soldiers at 3m away take 1, 3, 4, 5 and 5. No re-rolling. And the maths is easy - you just deduct the result of the removed die. The both take 18 STUN and 4 BODY. And the soldier at 5m away takes 1, 3, 4 and 5. So that's 13 STUN and 3 BODY.

It's two dice rolls no matter how many people you hit. Yeah, you technically have to add the numbers up for each range zone with people in it but if the first result was 20 and I've just removed a 4, then that's 16. All in all, pretty quick.

Now if you're the argumentative sort you might be reaching for your keyboard about to tell me your example used Killing Damage. I just wanted to use the simplest example as we're not the only two reading this thread. But to convert this to Killing damage is only a minor change. The explosive rules in the book just say to choose one of two approaches. To reduce it by one die per 6m instead of 2m. Or to just full on remove a static 2 points of damage per 2m.

Honestly, killing damage is actually less maths to do than normal damage.

Hope that helps.

 

[ZMOT]

The problem I face in Britbong land is nowhere has these. Some book and comic shops might carry mainstream WotC stuff, but otherwise I'm limited to the FLGS next town over, and they are a small local chain so it's not really a place where you can talk shop and get special orders in. I could try I guess, but I doubt it'll work. Even Amazon doesn't help. Just today I tried buying Alien RPG. It's marked as sold out on FLGS site and Amazon doesn't have it.

there must be some mailorder-stores in the uk left, I distinctly remember pre-covid ordering stuff from there.

This I knew about going in. Supposedly the best way to get a fantasy mini collection is to buy a board game.

https://www.reapermini.com/ when they have a kickstarter. otherwise they might have good prices during a sale.

however even it makes me sound like a broken record, source someone near you (or who does mail order) with a printer and none of all that matters anymore.

 

[Judge Dredd]

there must be some mailorder-stores in the uk left, I distinctly remember pre-covid ordering stuff from there.

They likely exist. I've not looked into it too deep.

It's not like America though where this thread talks as if you walk into any book shop and find a bunch of RPGs. There aren't really second hand book shops any more, at least where I live. Even dedicated nerd shops have an inconsistent collection. Just yesterday I was at FLGS with a big shopping list. Tales of the Valiant, Malidum, Alien RPG, some Manga, and more. All I walked out with was four (two blister packs) Wizkids DnD minis. Fuck, even amazon UK just shrugs half the time when you go outside DnD and Pathfinder.

In contrast, it seems almost any esoteric war game. Xenos Rampant, Stargrave, Frostgrave, This Quar's War, etc. is widely available, and cheap too.


That reminds me. Is there any good DnD stuff post woke? Asking because I only just heard of Dragons of Icespire Peak and Candlekeep Mysteries. They didn't get the hate Infinite Staircase and Radiant Citadel got, but that's not exactly a high bar.

 

[The Ugly One]

Is there any good DnD stuff post woke?

Not from WotC. It's all clown world crap now.

 

[Overly Serious]

there must be some mailorder-stores in the uk left, I distinctly remember pre-covid ordering stuff from there.

You can look up Leisure Games. They have a store in London but also do mail order.

 

[ZMOT]

There aren't really second hand book shops any more, at least where I live.

that's just how retail works. if there aren't enough local buyers to make the business feasible, they either go under or adapt to customer demand (which is usually mtg/pokemon and warhammer and/or (in case they don't want to get fucked over by gw) other wargames. stores in bumfuck america will have the same issue, if they still exist at all.
some businesses extend it to online since then they don't have to depend on local shoppers alone.

go on amazon, check who actually sells the book, and most of the time it's just marketplace offers from those stores. then you can either buy it from them via amazon, or look them up directly if they have an online store.
for example the alien rpg starter has 3 sellers, the last can be ignored (it's 118 quid), the other two are game stores:

https://www.gameslore.com

https://www.taleandtoken.com

and that's just via amazon, took me less than 5 minutes. if you know a shop closer but not worth driving there just ask them if they do a custom mail order, most of them will be more than happy to (probably more expensive but it's pretty much impossible to beat amazon prices as retail).

EDIT: not throwing shade, just pointing it out.

 

[p1138]

It's not like America though where this thread talks as if you walk into any book shop and find a bunch of RPGs. There aren't really second hand book shops any more, at least where I live. Even dedicated nerd shops have an inconsistent collection. Just yesterday I was at FLGS with a big shopping list. Tales of the Valiant, Malidum, Alien RPG, some Manga, and more. All I walked out with was four (two blister packs) Wizkids DnD minis. Fuck, even amazon UK just shrugs half the time when you go outside DnD and Pathfinder.

I don't know about that. If we're talking about actual book stores(and used book stores) the amount of nerd game shit on the shelves is miniscule. Half Price Books is a fairly large chain(100+ stores) but the TTRPG section will be tiny, and any of the big retail chains will generally only have D&D, Pathfinder, and maybe something else when it gets a release/re-release like VTM or something and then they don't bother to order it again. The actual mom and pop book stores usually won't bother because thanks to consoomer culture, the shit all has a shelf life before interest plummets and it just sits collecting dust for a decade till it finally gets written off and thrown into a shredder. Off the top of my head, I can think of more game stores within a reasonable drive than book stores that would sell gaming stuff.

Honestly my mind is still not able to process when you mentioned dice being hard to come by in the UK, when social media makes it seem like there's some equivalent to Mirfield(I know why I know this place exists, but it shouldn't be something I just remember off the top of my head), Element, Wayland, etc. within an short drive from anywhere in the country.

 

[Anonymus Fluhre]

In contrast, it seems almost any esoteric war game. Xenos Rampant, Stargrave, Frostgrave, This Quar's War, etc. is widely available, and cheap too.

Stargrave, Frostgrave and Xenos Rampant are Osprey Games is a company own by Osprey Publishing, a British company. I would expect the Britshits to carry it. While they are British company, the make some really good military books and even their modeling books aren't too bad. Canada can be equally bad for TTRPG books at times. Old city was bad for anything to do with the hobby except for one whole store out of over a dozen in the area. Everyone else just carried Pathfinder and D&D. New city has been pretty decent for all things tabletop but then again the city is massive so I'd expect more players looking into different aspects of the hobby.

I don't know about that. If we're talking about actual book stores(and used book stores) the amount of nerd game shit on the shelves is miniscule.

The one used book store franchise here in Canada has been good for AD&D books and some older 3rd Edition and Pathfinder stuff. Sometimes you'll find some Tunnels and Trolls books for the more obscure stuff and some Battletech and Palladium books whenever someone dies and the family offloads their collection.

Does anyone have any suggestion for a system that would be good for playing semi-historical 16th/17th century adventures without overwhelming pirate focus and higher power level. Think French Wars of Religion/Three Musketeers rather than Captain Blood.

Have you checked out Miseries & Misfortunes? It's set in 1648 France. d20 based system if that matters.

 

[Judge Dredd]

Honestly my mind is still not able to process when you mentioned dice being hard to come by in the UK, when social media makes it seem like there's some equivalent to Mirfield(I know why I know this place exists, but it shouldn't be something I just remember off the top of my head), Element, Wayland, etc. within an short drive from anywhere in the country.

It was mostly a me problem I think, or a local issue.

I did get my dice. Don't know if I mentioned it here. But to recap. I tried dice from Amazon but it was all chinese shit. A relative, who had amazon prime, got very different results, and I had my dice the next day. I guess with prime, they don't show chinese bullshit because it has to be there in a day or two. My most recent visit to FLGS had some dice in stock. Basically a bin sold by weight.

There is stuff that exists in the country, but getting to it and finding results is another matter. A great example is a local model shop. "It's only a half hour drive" sounds good if you have a car. Public transport isn't viable because, even though google maps says it'll take an hour, it's 3 different busses. Even my "FLGS" is a £7 trip. Again, not a lot in the grand scheme, but as mentioned, just the other day I headed there with a big shopping list of games, models, paint, and manga, only to find basically 4 minis.

Stargrave, Frostgrave and Xenos Rampant are Osprey Games is a company own by Osprey Publishing, a British company. I would expect the Britshits to carry it.

I never thought of that. Now I feel stupid.

It makes complete sense though. It might explain why RPG groups are very rare, but wargaming stuff is. ...well, it's rare, but it exists.

 

[Anonymus Fluhre]

It makes complete sense though. It might explain why RPG groups are very rare, but wargaming stuff is. ...well, it's rare, but it exists.

The UK and lesser extent, the EU has a lot more tabletop wargaming companies than roleplaying companies compared to North America where I find it's the opposite. Its hard to find wargaming clubs here nowadays. You're better off just finding a group and figure out a day to play, or find a game with some bugs in it so you can convince your girlfriend/ wife to play like I did. They always seem to like creepy crawlies in games over other races yet can't stand them in real life. The last wargaming club I was in was over a decade ago.

 

[Judge Dredd]

I was watching a video about DnD 4e stuff. They mentioned the Monster Vault and RedBoxsets. Supposedly this wasn't DnD 4e, but it was a simplified, compatible game called DnD Essentials. Doesn't go into it, but I was wondering what is that version of the game like?

You're better off just finding a group and figure out a day to play, or find a game with some bugs in it so you can convince your girlfriend/ wife to play like I did.

I'll pitch Starfinder. Tell her she can play as a Shirin.

This is why I'm hopeful my orginization with Mr Autism will pan out. He knows a guy coming off an RPG, and bunch of model and historic re-enactment people. I want to go for an all phyisical set up this time. No VTT or Discord server. It's tough finding a game that is fun, affordable, and available.

the EU has a lot more tabletop wargaming companies than roleplaying companies compared to North America where I find it's the opposite.

I'm also looking into RPG-like board games or narrative heavy wargames as gateway for that reason. Malidum, Hero Quest, Gloomhaven, that kind of thing. Descent would be perfect but appears to be out of print. I was eyeing up Zombicide games at the FLGS, and supposedly new editions offer campaign play, and Arkham Horror 3 seems to be out of print.

Crusade is likely out of the question, but been eyeing up Gaslands, Frostgrave, Stargrave, and Five Parsecs. Same reason.


I know it annoys people, but my current shortlist for games so far.

Most likely

• 5e. I own this. Would like Tales of the Valiant or some other compatible to avoid the baggage of 5e. Wildly available, but is mostly woke era shit now.
• PF2. Cheap (due to pocket editions) and widely available. Might be too complex, but might appeal to wargaming sensabilities.
• Starfinder. I own the base game. Wide availability and cheap. Might be too complex, especially space combat. Not tried enhanced or 2e. Paizo shit the bed with adventures.
• Board games. Expensive one time purchase, but comes with everything, means potentially cheaper in the long run. DnD gateway game.

Less likely but still considering.

• Twilight 2000. Dry historical setting. Available at FLGS for cheap. All in one box. Minis available soon™ and many proxies available. Potentially limited content?
• Savage Worlds. Best game. Might be too esoteric for people to understand. Limited availably (requires US import)
• Alien RPG. Player is a fan of the IP. Very limited availably.
• Wargames. Cheap. Wide availably. Requires minis, terrain, etc.

 

[Acrid Alchemist]

I was watching a video about DnD 4e stuff. They mentioned the Monster Vault and RedBoxsets. Supposedly this wasn't DnD 4e, but it was a simplified, compatible game called DnD Essentials. Doesn't go into it, but I was wondering what is that version of the game like?

Essentials is just 4e. People try to count it as a partial edition like 3.5 but it's not. Its the same rules. Its the same game with the only major difference was changing the philosophy of class design. Essentially Martials go back to basic attacking every turn instead of having powers and everyone gets class features as they level instead of being frontloaded with features at level 1 and then with your Paragon Path and Epic Destiny.

Monster Vault 1 is essentially a redux of Monster Manual 1 but with the updated math so it was a hard replacement. MV Threats to Nentir Vale is essentially Monster Manual 4 but more focused on Heroic (levels 1-10) play.

As a 4e fan Essentials was ass except the Monster Vaults. The classes were mostly bland, boring and weaker than their original counterparts, there was some crazy feat power creep and the books were formatted like dogshit because they were physically smaller than your standard D&D manual. It also added goof shit like Pixies as a playable race and vampires as both a race and class when it was already a feat chain so you could go triple vampire.

 

[Ghostse]

Even solid-shot cannon had significant AOE. unless it was very early, um, seige shot (I forget the term) meant to fuck-up walls, most balls were not solid all the way through or were otherwise intended to fragment upon impact. But it wasn't canister or grapeshot, it was very randome and there was a ton of skipping. You can read accounts of when regular general-pupose balls were loaded you'd see small random holes get opened up in formations as the non-aerodynamic shrapnel whizzed around. You might get spattered with dirt right next to the impact point and be fine but some dude 50 feet away is now bleeding out.

I was watching a video about DnD 4e stuff. They mentioned the Monster Vault and RedBoxsets. Supposedly this wasn't DnD 4e, but it was a simplified, compatible game called DnD Essentials. Doesn't go into it, but I was wondering what is that version of the game like?

Exact same but worse. They moved all races to floating bonuses.
The only good thing was they improved the HP for MM1 monsters so fights are less of a grind.
But its 100% the same system.

or tl;dr:

Essentials was ass except the Monster Vaults.

 

[Sayer of the N-Word]

Twilight 2000. Dry historical setting. Available at FLGS for cheap. All in one box. Minis available soon™ and many proxies available. Potentially limited content?

I've seen speculation that T2k 4e has extremely limited content (expansions for urban and naval settings, plus a conversion of The Black Madonna, one of the most popular Poland campaign modules) because Free League is Swedish and the people at the company are spergishly leery about the setting now that the Russkies actually have invaded another country in Europe initiated their special military action against Neo-Nazi rebels in a breakaway region of far western Russia.

Another problem, one which I think is more plausible, is that Free League is very fond of deluxe box sets, making 4e expansions time-consuming to produce since they need to come up with extra content to justify the jacked up cost. Right now they're leaning on the 1e conversion rules in the CRB and the writers workshop thing they do (I can't remember the name) to fill in the gaps, but I think the game is going to die if Free League doesn't start making their shit shorter and more affordable for referees soon.

The news about minis is surprising since 4e rules expect the table to use chits like in old school magazine wargames.

Its hard to find wargaming clubs here nowadays.

The Bowling Alone phenomenon.

 

[Anonymus Fluhre]

The Bowling Alone phenomenon.

Off topic, but I found that bowling alley's are shutting down here with only things like blacklight ones still running.

• Starfinder. I own the base game. Wide availability and cheap. Might be too complex, especially space combat. Not tried enhanced or 2e. Paizo shit the bed with adventures.

Might be able to get new players involved thanks the to the Warframe collab.

I'll pitch Starfinder. Tell her she can play as a Shirin.

I've tried to pitch RPGs to her, she wont touch them but she's fine with Magic and Warhammer 40k