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Team Four Star - Creators of a bunch of stuff to make people laugh trying to figure out what to do after a decade of comedically retelling Dragon Ball Z.
My problem with Gohan powering up to summon Goku is a) it exemplifies the "everybody waits for Goku" problem that's been plaguing the series since the start of Z and b) acting as a beacon of power is less impressive when you realize (kid!) Trunks does the same thing later on.
Saiyan saga being no.1 isn't surprising, neither from a fanboy perspective, as it introduces the saiyans, scouters, powerlevels, Vegeta, a lot of mainstay imagery and has a bunch of iconic moments, nor a hipster fanboy perspective, as it has pre super saiyan cred, the older cast still doing something, even though it's mostly getting killed, and who could forget Launch is in it for 3 seconds in the anime.
And from a more analytical standpoint, it has good pacing, no weird narrative jumps, a tight cast of bad guys, it's the right length, sensible character arcs and drama. It's all sensibly made and is pretty much DB at its best. It's the completely correct choice for No.1
@Allanon I mean, it feels like we're saying the same thing but in a glass half empty-half full way. Though I'd argue saiyan saga is a good contrast to the first tournament. Toriyama just directly expanded on saiyans by continuing into namek. Vegeta was well recieved and he immediately ran with it to Frieza. While the first tournament was followed by Red Ribbon Army. The realignment to chinese martial arts theme, tournament setting and more active central villain/rival happened because Red Ribbon lost steam for DB, and he wanted it to be popular otherwise he'd might as well go back to Dr.Slump.
So whereas Saiyan saga was "I struck gold lets keep going", Roshi's tournament was "that was more popular, I need to reprioritise". Couldn't quote your post for some reason.
I don't know where people get this idea. It doesn't. If you have any ki it passively multiplies all your physical attributes, thus speed, power, resilience. I remember there was that one video where a guy prefaced it by saying "ki doesn't work this way, but whatever" and then proceeded to talk for 20 minutes about how ki only works if you actively use it, otherwise you are weak as shit, even though he himself said that's wrong. Like, Goku as a kid gets shot in the fucking head and the bullet bounces off and all he felt was a headache. That was before he knew he could concentrate his energy.
I mean it is literally never properly explained, and fuck knowing the finer details of how concentrating ki works, I mean guess it's like flexing a muscle. What is the difference between life energy and normal ki, who knows. Does Trunk's ki carry over into his sword if he swings it? I mean probably, he dices everyone who is weaker than him, but people who have more ki just stop or break the sword. It's vague, but the one thing that is certain is that if you have ki, it makes you stronger, whether you actively use it or just have it passively. Then there's Vegeta on Namek, where I have to assume he actively lowered his energy somewhat so that Krillin could hurt him with a basic blast that Krillin didn't even really put any oomph in. So I guess in that way, it's like making your own limbs limp on purpose. But then, that also means that the baseline for ki is always to be passively active, like the rest of the human body.
So back to Res F, that scene is terrible, less so in the anime, but both get it wrong pretty much. Only way Goku could get damaged by that little fucker is if Goku lost so much ki he is basically weaker than Pandanosemidget's blast when it hits him. As SSB, he's clearly way beyond getting hurt by that he's so bullshit OP and he has enough ki to even maintain the form, and even in base form he should be able to tank it unless he deliberately made himself so weak he could get hurt on purpose, cause he wasn't tapped completely of energy. Just letting your guard down doesn't cut it, unless the attack itself is strong enough to hurt Goku, ala Piccolo vs Goku at the tournament, which was 2 opponents of roughly equal strength and not Goku vs lolSorbet.
My problem with Gohan powering up to summon Goku is a) it exemplifies the "everybody waits for Goku" problem that's been plaguing the series since the start of Z and b) acting as a beacon of power is less impressive when you realize (kid!) Trunks does the same thing later on.
I don't disagree about that issue, but I would argue one of the biggest failings of RoF is that in general (BoG is more forgivable because Goku may be the one taking the beating but it's Earth all around that charms Beerus, and particularly moreso in the show they leave it up for debate how much - initially - he spares it because of the people and how much he just really likes the food) in the movie they do the same thing, it's just a bunch of people fighting being a beacon instead of just Gohan. Kid!Trunks being able to do the same later is not that bad because Trunks is supposed to be very strong - Gotenks is the combination of Trunks + Goten + a little boost and is only a little bit weaker than Mystic Gohan. If we assume the future beacon acting either infers that Trunks has gotten strong enough to be comparable to RoF era Gohan or Goku has gotten better at finding that kind of beacon with experience, I don't find it insulting to Gohan. I also still find it better than Gohan instantly getting gimped by Frieza and people like Piccolo and Krillin being enough to lock onto instead. I would argue, essentially, that all problems with RoF are worse in the movie - not all are fixed in the show, if any, but they're not as bad as in the movie. That's why I prefer the series version to the movie version. BoG is kind of the opposite, where the series takes the movies flaws and magnifies them and throws in some new ones.
Saiyan saga being no.1 isn't surprising, neither from a fanboy perspective, as it introduces the saiyans, scouters, powerlevels, Vegeta, a lot of mainstay imagery and has a bunch of iconic moments, nor a hipster fanboy perspective, as it has pre super saiyan cred, the older cast still doing something, even though it's mostly getting killed, and who could forget Launch is in it for 3 seconds in the anime.
And from a more analytical standpoint, it has good pacing, no weird narrative jumps, a tight cast of bad guys, it's the right length, sensible character arcs and drama. It's all sensibly made and is pretty much DB at its best. It's the completely correct choice for No.1
@Allanon I mean, it feels like we're saying the same thing but in a glass half empty-half full way. Though I'd argue saiyan saga is a good contrast to the first tournament. Toriyama just directly expanded on saiyans by continuing into namek. Vegeta was well recieved and he immediately ran with it to Frieza. While the first tournament was followed by Red Ribbon Army. The realignment to chinese martial arts theme, tournament setting and more active central villain/rival happened because Red Ribbon lost steam for DB, and he wanted it to be popular otherwise he'd might as well go back to Dr.Slump.
So whereas Saiyan saga was "I struck gold lets keep going", Roshi's tournament was "that was more popular, I need to reprioritise". Couldn't quote your post for some reason.
I don't know where people get this idea. It doesn't. If you have any ki it passively multiplies all your physical attributes, thus speed, power, resilience. I remember there was that one video where a guy prefaced it by saying "ki doesn't work this way, but whatever" and then proceeded to talk for 20 minutes about how ki only works if you actively use it, otherwise you are weak as shit, even though he himself said that's wrong. Like, Goku as a kid gets shot in the fucking head and the bullet bounces off and all he felt was a headache. That was before he knew he could concentrate his energy.
I mean it is literally never properly explained, and fuck knowing the finer details of how concentrating ki works, I mean guess it's like flexing a muscle. What is the difference between life energy and normal ki, who knows. Does Trunk's ki carry over into his sword if he swings it? I mean probably, he dices everyone who is weaker than him, but people who have more ki just stop or break the sword. It's vague, but the one thing that is certain is that if you have ki, it makes you stronger, whether you actively use it or just have it passively. Then there's Vegeta on Namek, where I have to assume he actively lowered his energy somewhat so that Krillin could hurt him with a basic blast that Krillin didn't even really put any oomph in. So I guess in that way, it's like making your own limbs limp on purpose. But then, that also means that the baseline for ki is always to be passively active, like the rest of the human body.
So back to Res F, that scene is terrible, less so in the anime, but both get it wrong pretty much. Only way Goku could get damaged by that little fucker is if Goku lost so much ki he is basically weaker than Pandanosemidget's blast when it hits him. As SSB, he's clearly way beyond getting hurt by that he's so bullshit OP and he has enough ki to even maintain the form, and even in base form he should be able to tank it unless he deliberately made himself so weak he could get hurt on purpose, cause he wasn't tapped completely of energy. Just letting your guard down doesn't cut it, unless the attack itself is strong enough to hurt Goku, ala Piccolo vs Goku at the tournament, which was 2 opponents of roughly equal strength and not Goku vs lolSorbet.
TBH I feel like they should change this to like...'most impactful' because Saiyan saga really is one of the most important sagas due to what it does for the series, but it's hard to argue it's one of the best. From a battle saga perspective later sagas are better, and from a 'Goku doesn't do everything and there's more than just fighting in this saga' perspective, earlier sagas are better. To me, it's always been an underwhelming saga. Granted, it would be very hard for me to pick an objective 'best' season. Subjectively, my #1 would be Buu, but there's a lot of pacing issues in Buu saga (especially in the anime) that drag it down on the technical side. Probably the best saga was King Piccolo if we're talking from as objective a standpoint you can go, but it featuring Kid Goku is such a huge negative for me that it drags it down.
I was simplifying, related to ki, and I considered mentioning the bullet thing but decided not to bother because it was not a bullet that shot through him, it was a ray gun. Dragonball established reasonably early on how dangerous concentrated energy is. Goku has never truly been invincible, obviously, and one of his glaring weak points in early Dragonball were things like the Dodonpa, which evil space emperor Frieza I think we can charitably place his ray gun to at least as powerful as.
I think we all agree that while in SSB form he shouldn't be able to be harmed, because that is actively channeling Ki and they make a point to show that when he lacks enough ki to use up just maintaining that form he loses that form, even if he's still strong enough to fight. If we assume that the higher power of ki that shields you is like flexing a muscle, then when Goku relaxes to end the fight with Frieza he's let that muscle go mostly limp. That doesn't make him 100% vulnerable (the - filler? - scene of Krillin throwing a rock at Goku's head is stupid because it goes against established canon about his toughness. It shouldn't hurt almost literally as much as bullets hurt.) but if we give Frieza credit that the ray guns his team use are designed to kill the majority of planets he comes across where people are much less well trained in ki manipulation (as the scouters also are) then Frieza's weapon only needed to overcome a certain threshold to damage Goku when Goku was relaxed. Thus I will give the series credit enough to say that it's possible, especially because Goku was at the height of his arrogance in that saga (I'm not too sure he went down from there given he then endangered the multiverse with Xeno against all warnings of the danger but whatever) but if the movie has him SSB that's just absurd and goes against how ki has been established to work so far.
...but the movie was written by Akira Toryama, and he's not exactly known for being the most consistent with his lore. coughdosayainsgetstrongerafterneardeathoncetheygosuperornotcough
Too bad we didn't get to see more of Movie!Beerus i.e. the charming guy who was willing to get on the dance floor and entertain the other guests. In Super he's just a grumpy jackass in a series that already has Vegeta.
im listening to them talk about baby sage and both Mark and Lani both wanted GT at number 12, and then Kaiser says "well because im an asshole, I won"... Right....
Goku is a bad parent: Goku is a member of a species of Space Mongols who raise their kids by punching them until they learn to fight back or die trying. His childhood was about as civilized as Tarzan's. He met his wife in a martial arts tournament, during which he beat the shit out of her because nobody told him hitting a girl is wrong, and he's not the kind of person who treats women as weaker than him either. That's ignoring we're dealing with a show for 10yo boys, who consider Goku to be the coolest dad ever anyway. If you factor in that Goku is regarded as the only known person in existence who can save literally the whole world from being dominated by Satan, a cartoonishly evil parody of a Japanese real estate agent, or a slasher movie monster that eats people alive then attributing bad parenting to Goku can be chalked up to KaiserNeko's daddy issues. FFS dude dies multiple times to save the world, I think he earned a sixpack and a week off.
DBZA is the best way to watch DBZ: I watched the full, original Gohan vs. Cell fight which was hour'n half long and looking at homoerotic squat-shitting muscleheads yelling their lungs off wasn't the best use of my time. I'd take DBZA over that, warts'n all.
Anyway, why didn't Toei just fucking hire TFS and take a cut of their profits instead of wasting time and money on putting down popular, talented voiceactors? Anyone have any idea other than Japanese executives' incompetence?
Anyway, why didn't Toei just fucking hire TFS and take a cut of their profits instead of wasting time and money on putting down popular, talented voiceactors? Anyone have any idea other than Japanese executives' incompetence?
Toei legitimately sees DBZA as insulting. TFS took their beloved and we'll respected property, and edited it to add jokes and "make it better". It doesn't matter if TFS say they do it out of love or respect for the series, Toei sees it as a slap in the face by a bunch of stupid Americans that think they know better.
im listening to them talk about baby sage and both Mark and Lani both wanted GT at number 12, and then Kaiser says "well because im an asshole, I won"... Right....
Whaaat? Kaiser being a bitch behind the scenes to get what he wants? No way.
Lol, as if it wasn't exceedingly obvious. The Baby/Tuffle Saga was a massive game changer for GT, and it featured some legitimately great fights, twists and visuals, and the beauty that's Super Saiyan 4. But nah, GT bad I guess.
im listening to them talk about baby sage and both Mark and Lani both wanted GT at number 12, and then Kaiser says "well because im an asshole, I won"... Right....
Legitimately thinking that Goku is a bad father requires a huge amount of cognitive dissonance. TFS' "Goku is a bad father jokes" would be one of their few funny jokes if I didn't know that people in the group legit believe it and that many idiots who parrot it also legitimately do as well.
The only credible claims to support this are off handed comments from leading questions that Toriyama throws out when asked about it. And even those there's about two of them which can be paraphrased as "well if he was a real life person it doesn't seem he should be interested in child-rearing." It always came off more as him admitting that Goku showing any interest in children or marriage is arguably out of character. And if we were to take his comments 100% at face value; this is the same man who has given about 3 different contradicting origins of the Kaioshin and Hakaishin (Supreme Kais and Beerus) in interviews. He has also thrown out a completely separate origin to Buu which literally contradicts what's in the anime and manga. I like Toriyama a lot but he has a self admitted problem with his long term memory of Dragon Ball.
If we actually look at the series proper itself, Goku has always loved his family. I don't know why in the world this is so difficult to grasp when the literal first story arc of DBZ is Goku willing to team up with the guy who tried to kill him and his friends in an attempt to save his son from a much, much stronger opponent. He also dies in the process. All the absentee father jokes are incredibly dumb when taken seriously since the only time that he's ever absent from his family's life is when he's dead. It is arguably central to the revelations to Goku's true origins during the Z era. He has legitimate brain damage after falling and breaking his head open falling into a ravine. His angry and violent Saiyan nature is replaced with his adoptive father's kindness. The kindhearted Saiyan raised on Earth is who the legendary super Saiyan legend was talking about.
To dig deeper than that, Goku understands his family, Gohan in particular, better than everyone else. People seem to forget the first interactions Piccolo had with Gohan and how he left him for dead in attempt to gain a stronger ally against the Saiyans. And despite his efforts, Gohan flakes out during the fight cause he's barely outside toddler age. Later on, after Goku spends a year in the Chamber with his son, he realizes Gohan's soft hearted nature hides the strongest fighter out of all of them. When Goku gets Gohan to fight Cell, Piccolo is flabbergasted by his decision in particular. Goku is the only one who really sees Gohan's potential. He's also the one who realizes that Gohan has very little interest in fighting outside of self defense.
TL;DR - The only people who actually believe Goku is a bad father are just projecting their own insecurities, namely KaiserNeko. Also call your dad on Christmas.
Toei legitimately sees DBZA as insulting. TFS took their beloved and we'll respected property, and edited it to add jokes and "make it better". It doesn't matter if TFS say they do it out of love or respect for the series, Toei sees it as a slap in the face by a bunch of stupid Americans that think they know better.
Toei legitimately sees DBZA as insulting. TFS took their beloved and we'll respected property, and edited it to add jokes and "make it better". It doesn't matter if TFS say they do it out of love or respect for the series, Toei sees it as a slap in the face by a bunch of stupid Americans that think they know better.
No, they're not. We're talking about old farts in suits with pathological fear of change 'cause it might cut into their profits short-term. It's a culture when your superiors are always right, after all. You could rubber-stamp TFS a permit to do their silly LARP for a % cut of their profits from every source and for the ownership of the DBZA IP, that way you have another team of wage slaves keeping your own IP fresh and alive in people's conciousness for literally no effort on your side.
No, they're not. We're talking about old farts in suits with pathological fear of change 'cause it might cut into their profits short-term. It's a culture when your superiors are always right, after all. You could rubber-stamp TFS a permit to do their silly LARP for a % cut of their profits from every source and for the ownership of the DBZA IP, that way you have another team of wage slaves keeping your own IP fresh and alive in people's conciousness for literally no effort on your side.
I don't think you understand the Japanese. They don't give a fuck about fucking Western weaboos. Their core audience is japan, and they cater to that audience.
A western company wants to give them money to dub their properties and give you a portion of any profits that generates? Sweet.
A western group of children take your property, slap jokes on it and upload it for everyone to watch and nobody gets any man, THATS IMPOSSIBRU AND DISHONORABRU. KILL THE GAIJIN.
It doesn't matter that what TFS is doing isn't illegal, they don't like it and want it to stop.
I don't think you understand the Japanese. They don't give a fuck about fucking Western weaboos. Their core audience is japan, and they cater to that audience.
A western company wants to give them money to dub their properties and give you a portion of any profits that generates? Sweet.
A western group of children take your property, slap jokes on it and upload it for everyone to watch and nobody gets any man, THATS IMPOSSIBRU AND DISHONORABRU. KILL THE GAIJIN.
It doesn't matter that what TFS is doing isn't illegal, they don't like it and want it to stop.
One thing I'd like to add more to it is the fact that the only studios care about apart from Japanese audiences are Chinese viewership. That shit can fund seasons.
One thing I'd like to add more to it is the fact that the only studios care about apart from Japanese audiences are Chinese viewership. That shit can fund seasons.
Given China's recent push to kick out all Hollywood movies and gaming, I'd wager it's a lost cause. Sooner everyone realizes that, the better off we'll all be.
No, they're not. We're talking about old farts in suits with pathological fear of change 'cause it might cut into their profits short-term. It's a culture when your superiors are always right, after all. You could rubber-stamp TFS a permit to do their silly LARP for a % cut of their profits from every source and for the ownership of the DBZA IP, that way you have another team of wage slaves keeping your own IP fresh and alive in people's conciousness for literally no effort on your side.
You are aware of how Japan itself views seniority and honor, correct? A couple of west weeaboo faggots making crass jokes both dumb and sexual making fun of your source material is incredibly disrespectful. It doesn't matter if "that's what the fans want", it's a topic of integrity and respect, something they value way more than a couple thousand more dollars on top of their already million dollar ventures. TFS, for all their talk of "respecting" the source material only go so far as to say the japanese names of some attacks. That's pretty much it. I'm honestly shocked they didn't try to cuck Krillin out of 18 given everything else they've done.
Besides, Super Dragon Ball Heroes exists, something that's literally just a kid smashing toys together and making up insane new shit to have fun with. It's not that they're not willing to try new things.
I don't think you understand the Japanese. They don't give a fuck about fucking Western weaboos. Their core audience is japan, and they cater to that audience.
A western company wants to give them money to dub their properties and give you a portion of any profits that generates? Sweet.
A western group of children take your property, slap jokes on it and upload it for everyone to watch and nobody gets any man, THATS IMPOSSIBRU AND DISHONORABRU. KILL THE GAIJIN.
It doesn't matter that what TFS is doing isn't illegal, they don't like it and want it to stop.
Never forgetti how in the Bojack movie (apparently the other movie TFS hates?) Goku phased out of the afterlife against all odds just to sucker punch Bojack and save his son
