Tesla Hate Thread - oh and come seethe about EVs in general with me

[Samuel Hyde]

OK, I'm not an electrical engineer so this might be a smooth brained question. But for someone more familiar with the topic I stumbled across something a bit confusing and maybe you could shed some light.

Teslas are what is sometimes called "battery electric" meaning they have a big battery or a big array of small batteries which the vehicle draws power from. Batteries of this kind are inherently direct current. Electric motors in contrast can be alternating current or direct current depending on the which makes the most sense for the application. On big consideration is what type of power source you have for the electrical device. For example, most appliances use induction motors(AC) because they plug into a wall while many battery powered devices like hand tools have brushless direct current motors(DC) because the power source is a battery. Obviously there are other considerations like size and weight but if you try to mix and match AC and DC you need things like bridge rectifiers or inverters.

Aren't Teslas wasting energy using induction motors over BLDCs considering Teslas need honkin' big inverters considering how much electricity is required to power an EV? Wouldn't Teslas be lighter, cheaper, and have better range if they had BLDCs instead of induction motors?

 

[Car Won't Crank]

OK, I'm not an electrical engineer so this might be a smooth brained question. But for someone more familiar with the topic I stumbled across something a bit confusing and maybe you could shed some light.

Teslas are what is sometimes called "battery electric" meaning they have a big battery or a big array of small batteries which the vehicle draws power from. Batteries of this kind are inherently direct current. Electric motors in contrast can be alternating current or direct current depending on the which makes the most sense for the application. On big consideration is what type of power source you have for the electrical device. For example, most appliances use induction motors(AC) because they plug into a wall while many battery powered devices like hand tools have brushless direct current motors(DC) because the power source is a battery. Obviously there are other considerations like size and weight but if you try to mix and match AC and DC you need things like bridge rectifiers or inverters.

Aren't Teslas wasting energy using induction motors over BLDCs considering Teslas need honkin' big inverters considering how much electricity is required to power an EV? Wouldn't Teslas be lighter, cheaper, and have better range if they had BLDCs instead of induction motors?

I think it's a more complicated set of reasons that led Tesla to choose induction AC motors over permanent magnet BLDC motors. There's the original investor angle with that induction motor company before the company was formed and the net benefits of induction vs permanent BLDC. Smaller devices like PC fans, RC motors in quadcopters and airplanes are fine with using BLDC motors because it's simpler and efficient for the size. Speaking of size, the benefits of permanent magnet motors start to wane once you scale up in larger applications like cars. In addition, if you were to use permanent magnets, you're dependent on the supplier of those magnets, which I believe is China. So not having to worry about that issue is another plus for induction motors. Also at larger sizes, it's better if you can have finer control of the motor, which induction allows. With permanent magnet motors, you're dependent on whatever magnetic field strength you get from the magnets in the rotor, which could also lead to efficiency issues across the rpm range. With induction, you can control the magnetic field of the rotor's induction coils. I'm no expert on induction, but the motor controller is pretty similar to the typical 3 pole BLDC motor on RC aircrafts so that isn't as big of an issue.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

One thing I never understood in Electric cars is that the engine might be 30% more efficient, but the car is 50% heavier, so wouldn't that be an energy net loss?

There are also tunes that make your car incapable of using 87 octane,

How the fuck you disable support for fuel type?

 

[The Ugly One]

How the fuck you disable support for fuel type?

Lower-octane fuels will spontaneously combust at higher in-cylinder pressures and temperatures. By altering the fueling curve to generate more horsepower, the cylinder will overall run hotter. If the engine as it came from the factory was already pretty close to the limits of what 87 octane can handle, this means you'll get engine knock, which can destroy your engine.

 

[The Great Milenko]

Lower-octane fuels will spontaneously combust at higher in-cylinder pressures and temperatures. By altering the fueling curve to generate more horsepower, the cylinder will overall run hotter. If the engine as it came from the factory was already pretty close to the limits of what 87 octane can handle, this means you'll get engine knock, which can destroy your engine.

And no car enthusist who turns their car will certainly bypass 87 completely. e85 is the way to go. Unless you really have money to burn and tune for 110 leaded gasoline.

 

[Nabeshin]

One thing I never understood in Electric cars is that the engine might be 30% more efficient, but the car is 50% heavier, so wouldn't that be an energy net loss?

Efficience on cars(and almost everything) in general aren't that simple as simple as only hard % as most people online uses.

This post ended up being longer than what I imagined.

tl;dr: The speed lost from the attriction force by the weight of a car that is 2 times heavier is less than 30%.

Car wheels uses something called Rolling Resistance for it's movement, it has formulas and explanation there but a tl;dr is a way to calculate the friction of something that spins. A normal car tire for example has a Rolling resistance of 0.0062 to 0.0150, so I'll be rounding it to 0.01 to help with the calculations.

If you apply the formula(F=Crr * N) to a car that weight 2(2.000 * 10 = 20.000N) tons you ended up having a final resistance of 200N and a 4ton car this would be 400N.

The catch comes now, most of the calculations now comes as a speculation(they are too complex for me who dislikes math) but if you take those 200N and 400Nand convert to torque force(would be the amount of anti-torque that it would do) on a 16 inch(8 inch radius) wheel, you would had around 40Nxm and 80Nxm of torque.

Let's take a random perfect car with 400Nxm of engine torque that there's no power loss to the wheels, on the normal weight on it the final power decreases around 10% and 20% on the second wheel, this considering 100% of weight increase, so a tesla being heavier doesn't make it 50% less powerful.

 

[Toolbox]

/o/ is basically full of Tesla shill threads and anti Tesla threads now View attachment 3568974

In what narrow, selected way are EVs 22% less expensive to service?

 

[byuu]

For example, most appliances use induction motors(AC)

As in blenders, drills, etc? They use universal motors - unlike induction motors they use brushes and their speed isn't frequency dependent and they actually work with DC as well.
Induction motors are more used in industrial environments.

And induction motors being AC doesn't really matter because for speed control, you need a VFD.
And modern VFDs rectify the AC anyway and then invert it again to an AC with a different frequency.

 

[1Tonka_Truck]

And no car enthusist who turns their car will certainly bypass 87 completely. e85 is the way to go. Unless you really have money to burn and tune for 110 leaded gasoline.

Go juice tier list E85<AvGas<100+ Octane Unleaded<Methanol

 

[Vecr]

drills, etc

I have a AC brushless speed controlled drill that runs on lithium ion batteries. They do exist, but they might cost more money.

 

[Uber driver reviewer]

One thing I never understood in Electric cars is that the engine might be 30% more efficient, but the car is 50% heavier, so wouldn't that be an energy net loss?

How the fuck you disable support for fuel type?

1. Depends on speed, load, conditions and other variables.

2. 20:1 compression in overboosted, undersized ICE engines.


One of the chief reasons for my decision to go with a Tesla was that most new ICE cars are loaded up with overstressed shit, wonky UI’s and net subtractive emissions controls and methods that I just wanted out of the fucking things if they were going to be so gay and chintzy that I might as well just buy a gay and chintzy car that was fast, attractive and efficient.

 

[byuu]

I have a AC brushless speed controlled drill that runs on lithium ion batteries. They do exist, but they might cost more money.

You have an AC drill that runs on a DC source? What?
If it's a quality li-ion drill then it will be using a brushless dc motor.

 

[Uber driver reviewer]

In what narrow, selected way are EVs 22% less expensive to service?

Substantially less frequent brake service, no trannies to dialate, engine cooling system has almost no service and is a lot simpler, no fuel system, no emissions , climate control is ridiculously simple, no starting system or ignition system…. The cars are just mechanically simpler. Elon demands innovation by eliminating things that are complex. There is a lot of beautiful engineering in making things simple that I appreciate.


You do go through tires a bit faster (expect to get 40k miles out of a set of good michilin all seasons versus 50-60k on ICE cars. The weight of the car and torque rub rubber off the cars fairly quickly. Spare me diatribes about the rubber forests in Africa And child labor. I don’t give a shit and you never did either until you could try to make a lame counterpoint out of it

And no car enthusist who turns their car will certainly bypass 87 completely. e85 is the way to go. Unless you really have money to burn and tune for 110 leaded gasoline.

Regular use of High performance and off-road fuels come with their own issues.

Also no car enthusiest who turns their own wrenches need high performance or off road fuels to make big numbers. You can easily get big numbers on 87 out of a LS V8 or a Honda K motor.

 

[Toolbox]

Substantially less frequent brake service, no trannies to dialate, engine cooling system has almost no service and is a lot simpler, no fuel system, no emissions , climate control is ridiculously simple, no starting system or ignition system….


You do go through tires a bit faster (expect to get 40k miles out of a set of good michilin all seasons versus 50-60k on ICE cars. The weight of the car and torque rub rubber off the cars fairly quickly. Spare me diatribes about the rubber forests in Africa And child labor. I don’t give a shit and you never did either until you could try to make a lame counterpoint out of it

Ignores at a minimum the giant elephant in the room which is battery replacement, like you could even do it yourself now that these companies have started gluing them down.

 

[Uber driver reviewer]

And no car enthusist who turns their car will certainly bypass 87 completely. e85 is the way to go. Unless you really have money to burn and tune for 110 leaded gasoline.

Regular use of High performance and off-road fuels come with their own issues.

Also no car enthusiest who turns their own wrenches need high performance or off road fuels to make big numbers. You can easily get big numbers on 87 out of a LS V8 or a Honda K motor.

Gasoline Ford F-150 XLT MSRP: 39000 USD https://archive.ph/wip/8Jqfm
Ford F-150 Lightning XLT MSRP: 53000 USD, with a three year waiting list https://archive.ph/wip/7GLeF

With an otherwise identical spec, the electric version of the same vehicle costs almost 15k more than the ICE version. In exchange, you get reduced range and cargo capacity, along with the inability to tow an empty trailer more than 60 or so miles.

This price is set by the material and construction costs - expenses that are not going to be reducing at any time in the near future, but will instead increase due to the fact that the supply cannot scale with projected demand.

The lightening has a $7500 tax credit so it’s really not that much more.

Outside of that it’s an apples and oranges comparison. The lightening meets the needs of the vast majority of F-150 buyers (F-150 is NOT what you buy for hauling, that’s what sooperdoodies are for).

The lightening is a really nice package, and honestly makes more sense than electric sedans. Trucks get bad mileage and not having to pay for gas when buying a loaded up truck makes the decision appealing for people who are confident about the payments but not the fuel bill.


Also, the referenced 60 mile (really 87 mile) test was pretty much optimized to maximize battery consumption. IMO it was not at all realistic and crafted for YT clicks. A more aerodynamic trailer and randomly selected route would had gone further. Not to mention that the same test would be single digits for a eco boost or 5.0L ford . But it’s good for boomers to yell where ya going plerg it in when the power goes out?”

Ignores at a minimum the giant elephant in the room which is battery replacement, like you could even do it yourself now that these companies have started gluing them down.

I didn’t avoid it and it’s not an elephant in the room. I addressed this previously. The battery is going to last you a long time. The hardware, chemistry, and the battery management software get better and better every year. Yet despite all of that, the battery IS replaceable. Out of warranty battery replacements are rare and carry a shocking shop estimate, but is really no different than the quote you see (but don’t pay) if you manage to lunch the ICE motor on say a BMW or Audi. I’m also sure that the aftermarket will address cars far out of battery warranty just like you can get junkyard or remanufactured ICE drivetrains.

Cars are not built with self service in mind and haven’t been for quite some time. This is not EV specific.

It’s just more “Muh what if the power goes out !!! Muh what if an EMP goes off in your garage!” Boomer crying about these things

 

[The Great Milenko]

Also no car enthusiest who turns their own wrenches need high performance or off road fuels to make big numbers. You can easily get big numbers on 87 out of a LS V8 or a Honda K motor.

LOL. What? On what Chevy forum is this shit posted?

 

[Vecr]

AC drill that runs on a DC source? What?

The motor is AC, the speed controller is a DC to AC converter that controls the frequency of the generated AC power.

 

[byuu]

The motor is AC, the speed controller is a DC to AC converter that controls the frequency of the generated AC power.

What model is that? I've never heard of a drill using an induction motor and VFD other than big drill presses.

 

[1Tonka_Truck]

What model is that? I've never heard of a drill using an induction motor and VFD other than big drill presses.

I think he's confusing synchronous motors and brushless motors. A VFD and brushless speed controller aren't that different, but they definitely aren't the same thing.

 

[Pee Cola]