The Abortion Debate Containment Thread - Put abortion sperging here.

[Parallel Moon]

If It's my opinion that it is immoral why on earth would I not obligate you not to do it?
Non-fundamentalism is silly. Liberals are silly.
Abortion is murder. If you do it you should be hanged from a tree or burned alive for being evil and soulless. I don't see any reason why we as a society should welcome open debate on this issue. I don't see any nuance or wiggle room on murdering babies in the womb. I don't see any detail or consequence or circumstance as more important than the fact that you're murdering babies in the womb. I see nothing that can surpass that evil and make it "necessary," in theory or in practice.

Cool story. You are probably some retarded troll. But its an interesting debate nonetheless.

Now imagine you are the God-Empress of America or whatever.

How are you going to enforce that?

How can you 100% prevent me from ever having an abortion? Prevent all travel for pregnant women? Investigate every single miscarriage ever? (One in four pregnancies end in miscarriage. That means hundreds of thousands every year)

Would you lock up every woman of child bearing age? Or just those who have a confirmed pregnancy? What number of resources would you expend to prevent abortion?

How can you acquire enough evidence to charge me with murder for abortion?

There are things you can ingest that will cause spontaneous miscarriage. Good luck tracking everything every woman everywhere puts in her body.

 

[alreadyhome]

If It's my opinion that it is immoral why on earth would I not obligate you not to do it?
Non-fundamentalism is silly. Liberals are silly.
Abortion is murder. If you do it you should be hanged from a tree or burned alive for being evil and soulless. I don't see any reason why we as a society should welcome open debate on this issue. I don't see any nuance or wiggle room on murdering babies in the womb. I don't see any detail or consequence or circumstance as more important than the fact that you're murdering babies in the womb. I see nothing that can surpass that evil and make it "necessary," in theory or in practice.

Have you ever been pregnant?

 

[Eris!]

How can you 100% prevent me from ever having an abortion?

I can't. Your parents can probably do a good % job of doing it if they aren't shitheads, which they shouldn't be.

How are you going to enforce that?

The exact same way we handle other murders.

Would you lock up every woman of child bearing age? Or just those who have a confirmed pregnancy? What number of resources would you expend to prevent abortion?

Why do you imagine these insane things? Do you have a fetish? Why do you think this kind of murder is a special category which it is insane to forbid?

How can you acquire enough evidence to charge me with murder for abortion?

The exact same way we handle other murders.

There are things you can ingest that will cause spontaneous miscarriage. Good luck tracking everything every woman everywhere puts in her body.

"People get away with murder sometimes, let's legalize murder." -you

 

[Lemmingwise]

Lmao so this thread is actually retarded. Thanks for the laughs everyone!

Yes, you're right you said majority.

Now are you going to answer the question of why you believe that? How you came to that conclusion?

 

[Muttnik]

I think all notions of having a fair, reasonable discussion in this thread is pretty much gone at this point. As long as MUH MURDER continues to spam the same lazy holier than thou responses, the conversation isn't going to progress at all, regardless of the reasoning, context, or logic given to them.

As I've stated before, I have no problem with pro-life opinions. I don't want to experience an abortion in my lifetime. But some of you guys' complete lack of empathy for the woman in this scenario is really depressing. Oh well. I'll just sit here and wait for Righteous Fury 1000 IQ to respond like the stubborn mule he is.

 

[Parallel Moon]

Why do you think this kind of murder is a special category which it is insane to forbid?

Because how could you ever prove something was a miscarriage rather than an abortion?

Your dream country, El Salvador, has women in prison for having miscarriages and still births.

 

[Lemmingwise]

How are you going to enforce that?

How can you 100% prevent me from ever having an abortion? Prevent all travel for pregnant women? Investigate every single miscarriage ever? (One in four pregnancies end in miscarriage. That means hundreds of thousands every year)

Would you lock up every woman of child bearing age? Or just those who have a confirmed pregnancy? What number of resources would you expend to prevent abortion?

How can you acquire enough evidence to charge me with murder for abortion?

For each of these, your argument rests on being difficult to legislate/prosecute. That any ban wouldn't be a 100% ban.

I don't think you want to take that road.

For instance, rape is about equally difficult to legislate and prosecute.

The difference between rape and sex is consent, which is usually given between the two parties with nobody else present.

Just because something is difficult to legislate and prosecute is not a strong enough motivation to prevent doing so.

 

[Bec]

Abortion just feels wrong to me, maybe in some circumstances maybe?

 

[Eris!]

As long as MUH MURDER continues to spam the same lazy holier than thou responses,

Why are you unwilling to speak directly to me?
If my rebuttals are lazy they should be pretty easy to defeat, but instead you ignore them. I am, in fact, holier than thou. I'm not sorry if that annoys you. You don't get to argue with people who think you're a murderer and then be shocked they treat you like a murderer. It doesn't work like that. You can't be shocked that the people arguing for a view genuinely hold it.

Because how could you ever prove something was a miscarriage rather than an abortion?

Witness testimony from their family? Material evidence that it caused the death and that they ingested it? I don't know, I'm not a homicide detective. I don't really care. You keep just trying to get us to forget that you're arguing to legalize murdering infants. It's insane that the conversation has reached people unironically asking why murder is wrong.

Abortion just feels wrong to me, maybe in some circumstances maybe?

Congratulations on your moral compass bro. They seem to be rare.

 

[Lemmingwise]

As I've stated before, I have no problem with pro-life opinions. I don't want to experience an abortion in my lifetime. But some of you guys' complete lack of empathy for the woman in this scenario is really depressing

I'm sure the lack of empathy about the babies is experienced no less by the other side.

The problem with letting your feelings rule in debate is that they're always aligned with your own position (for everyone). In fact discussion can only be productive if a bridge between perspectives is made and that can happen only if people care more about the discussion than those feelings.

 

[Eris!]

discussion can only be productive if a bridge between perspectives is made

I don't agree with that at all. Discussion is productive if more people agree with reality. Compromise with delusion or with evil is not a good thing. The purpose of discussion is not to share perspectives, it's to be right, and to make other people stop being wrong.

 

[Muttnik]

Why are you unwilling to speak directly to me?
If my rebuttals are lazy they should be pretty easy to defeat, but instead you ignore them. I am, in fact, holier than thou.

Mostly because I'm really legit tired of hearing you simp for Fetus-chan without ever once bothering to consider the other side. That's not a debate--that's you acting like a self-righteous dick with a superiority complex. I'm not going to waste my time on that. MUH MURDER. Heard it already. Been there, done that. Boring.

I'm sure the lack of empathy about the babies is experienced no less by the other side.

Oh I totally get that. The thought of hurting any living creature is deeply upsetting to me and I've previously said that I don't find the act of pregnancy termination glamorous or empowering. It's a heartbreaking event, but I feel that it's necessary in certain circumstances. Either way, someone gets screwed. I'd rather it not be a living person than a potential person.

 

[Lemmingwise]

I don't agree with that at all. Discussion is productive if more people agree with reality. Compromise with delusion or with evil is not a good thing. The purpose of discussion is not to share perspectives, it's to be right, and to make other people stop being wrong.

I agree with that, but I consider the perspective incomplete.

You would still need a bridge to reach those who are deluded or evil and in any serious discussion both sides seem deluded to the other, even if one is demonstrably in the wrong.

To build a bridge so that you can meet in the middle and talk, makes it easier for people to leave their position and take another one, because they see your willingness to consider the possibility that you might be wrong.

To stand in between perspectives for the sake of discussion, is not itself a compromise of values. Only if afterwards you walk over it. Which might be a good thing if you find out you were wrong.

Or are you never in the wrong?

I think all notions of having a fair, reasonable discussion in this thread is pretty much gone at this point.

There's always room for it. All you need to do is engage with that part of what you see.

I asked someone to explain how he came to the conclusion that the majority of abortions were not made lightly. But he was more interested in only responding to my other point and go "lalala see how dumb you are?"

That echoes my experience in engaging with the other side ever since I changed my mind on abortion and realised it is indefensible in the vast majority of cases.

For example, he cited that women might get trauma from abortion. That says nothing about how lightly the decision was or wasn't made. I know various countries have varying degrees of making sure that an abortion is well considered (waiting times between asking for one and getting one), but conversely there are ways to have abortion that don't have that at all.

Here's two seperate questions to build some new avenue of discussion.

1. How severe is the crime of knowingly or accidently terminating another's pregnancy? (Slipping drugs into food / Causing an accident that causes a miscarriage)

2. What recourse should a father have for the abortion of his child?

 

[Eris!]

You would still need a bridge to reach those who are deluded or evil and in any serious discussion both sides seem deluded to the other, even if one is demonstrably in the wrong.

You can't convince people who are arguing in bad faith, because they don't actually believe what they're saying in the first place. You have to be implacably correct in their face, defeat their mental gymnastics, and withstand their insanity until they lack the willpower to continue lying. They will then either admit it, or ghost out of the argument because they lack the self-respect to admit being wrong.

To build a bridge so that you can meet in the middle and talk, makes it easier for people to leave their position and take another one, because they see your willingness to consider the possibility that you might be wrong.

I have no such willingness because there is no chance that murdering your infant child is wrong. That absolute certainty is the best argument in the face of their ambiguously nuanced excuses.

Or are you never in the wrong?

Like I said, the trick to winning arguments is choosing the right side.

How severe is the crime of knowingly or accidently terminating another's pregnancy?

I've asked this twice and been ignored both times.

Mostly because I'm really legit tired of hearing you simp for Fetus-chan without ever once bothering to consider the other side.

The other side is a murderer. Am I supposed to care about the murderer?

Either way, someone gets screwed. I'd rather it not be a living person than a potential person.

I don't care who gets screwed. I care if the screwing is done by someone that is morally culpable for that screwing.
I harp on the murder point because it is the point.

 

[Parallel Moon]

For each of these, your argument rests on being difficult to legislate/prosecute. That any ban wouldn't be a 100% ban.

I don't think you want to take that road.

For instance, rape is about equally difficult to legislate and prosecute.

The difference between rape and sex is consent, which is usually given between the two parties with nobody else present.

Just because something is difficult to legislate and prosecute is not a strong enough motivation to prevent doing so.

Doing this would just make pregnancy a thousand times more stressful than it already is. One in four pregnancies is miscarried. That's a one in four chance of being possibly accused and prosecuted for murder. Some women would have even higher chances of this, such as women with PCOS. Stress adds to the likelihood of miscarriage.

I mean, I don't want to give this thread the impression that I wanna have an abortion. I never want to go through that ever. It would actually be one of the worst thing to ever happen to me. It's not like I'm gangbanging 20 men a day and then posting all over instagram about killing my baby and how proud I am of it. Honestly, I hate a lot of what the loony left is doing like pushing the idea that being a literal prostitute is awesome to young girls and that you need to tell everyone you had an abortion because "it's so AMAZING and empowering!!!111" That shit is degenerate to me.

But I am still pro-abortion and pro-euthanasia. Because sometimes death is the best possible outcome.

Erischan apparently thinks that people must be kept on life support indefinitely in order for it not to be murder. This is pretty evident that anyone who believes things like this has never been a worker in a medical facility or had a family member in any of those situations.

 

[Muttnik]

The other side is a murderer. Am I supposed to care about the murderer?

I don't care who gets screwed. I care if the screwing is done by someone that is morally culpable for that screwing.

I'm done with you, pal. You're not offering anything new to the table. Your ego is pretty exhausting to deal with. I'm totally willing to support many prolife arguments and listen to their perspective. But your level of narcisstic autism is tiring to watch and I mostly just feel sorry for you.
I think it's a beautiful person who protects life. But I don't think this is about you wanting to protect life so much as torment and taunt people in really bad situations. But hey, if you wanna blast yourself retarded screeching about fetuses all day, have at it champ.
You can call it whatever the hell you want. I personally find it more complex. But the mature path is to courteously agree to disagree and move on.

Inb4 NOOOOO MER-DURR!!11

 

[Eris!]

But I am still pro-abortion and pro-euthanasia. Because sometimes death is the best possible outcome.

Erischan apparently thinks that people must be kept on life support indefinitely in order for it not to be murder. This is pretty evident that anyone who believes things like this has never been a worker in a medical facility or had a family member in any of those situations.

I do not think in terms of best possible outcome. I think in terms of whether discrete actions are morally permissible. Murdering your child is not. The outcome isn't really relevant. If not doing something immoral prevents you from getting something you want, I don't care. If you need to do something immoral to prevent something unpleasant, don't.

This is pretty evident that anyone who believes things like this has never been a worker in a medical facility or had a family member in any of those situations.

Would it matter if I had? Why do you keep trying to suss out my specific perspective when every statement I make in this thread is deliberately absent of one?

I'm done with you, pal. You're not offering anything new to the table.

Am I supposed to try to? Why would I offer new arguments when you've ignored the ones already out there? Is novelty an ends unto itself?

Your ego is pretty exhausting to deal with

Yes, experiencing cognitive dissonance can be very exhausting. I recommend you change your mind to deal with it.

I'm totally willing to support many prolife arguments and listen to their perspective.

You don't seem to be.

But your level of narcisstic autism is tiring to watch and I mostly just feel sorry for you.

muh tone
If you want respect, baby murderer, don't argue for murdering babies. You chose to argue for your disgusting side, I didn't force you to. It's not my fault you're disgusting and evil, and it's not improper that I treat you the way I'm treating you.

I think it's a beautiful person who protects life. But I don't think this is about you wanting to protect life

You people continually cannot hear this: It's not about protecting life. It's about murder. I have said this explicitly. Multiple times.
No, I do not want to protect life. Correct. I do not want to protect life from cancer, or corona, or fucking wildfires. I do not give a shit about you or your life. I give a shit about murder, theft, arson. I give a shit about actions taken by human beings. Human beings can and should be judged for their actions in a way that a fucking hurricane or fucking poverty or a fucking miscarriage can't.

Inb4 NOOOOO MER-DURR!!11

It is literally murder. Why would I ever, under any circumstances, let the conversation deviate from that fact? Staying on that point is fundamentally important. I refuse to let you forget it, or try to get me to forget it.

 

[Parallel Moon]

I do not think in terms of best possible outcome. I think in terms of whether discrete actions are morally permissible. Murdering your child is not. The outcome isn't really relevant. If not doing something immoral prevents you from getting something you want, I don't care. If you need to do something immoral to prevent something unpleasant, don't.

You people continually cannot hear this: It's not about protecting life. It's about murder. I have said this explicitly. Multiple times.
No, I do not want to protect life. Correct. I do not want to protect life from cancer, or corona, or fucking wildfires. I do not give a shit about you or your life. I give a shit about murder, theft, arson. I give a shit about actions taken by human beings. Human beings can and should be judged for their actions in a way that a fucking hurricane or fucking poverty or a fucking miscarriage can't.

You cannot win this argument if you care nothing at all for the outcomes in any situation. No matter what your opinion is, the outcomes do matter. And that is all your rants are. An opinion.

If you care so much about "murder" but not any other circumstance surrounding it, then how can you be for hanging women who've had abortions? Is that not also murder? That is an action taken by a human being. So you are for state-sanctioned murder, but taking people off life support is beyond the pale. Having a non-viable fetus aborted is beyond the pale.

Sorry but your position is pretty retarded to be honest.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Doing this would just make pregnancy a thousand times more stressful than it already is. One in four pregnancies is miscarried. That's a one in four chance of being possibly accused and prosecuted for murder. Some women would have even higher chances of this, such as women with PCOS. Stress adds to the likelihood of miscarriage.

I mean, I don't want to give this thread the impression that I wanna have an abortion. I never want to go through that ever. It would actually be one of the worst thing to ever happen to me. It's not like I'm gangbanging 20 men a day and then posting all over instagram about killing my baby and how proud I am of it. Honestly, I hate a lot of what the loony left is doing like pushing the idea that being a literal prostitute is awesome to young girls and that you need to tell everyone you had an abortion because "it's so AMAZING and empowering!!!111" That shit is degenerate to me.

Then I suppose we should make rape legal, because it's stressful for men that they can get falsely accused?

You're not addressing the point I was making. Your or mine virtue in other parts is irrelevant.

1. Is difficulty to enforce sufficient reason to legalize something?
2. Is the potential of, pardon the term, miscarriage of justice sufficient reason to legalize something because of the stress it might cause to the innocent?

 

[Eris!]

You cannot win this argument if you care nothing at all for the outcomes in any situation. No matter what your opinion is, the outcomes do matter.

Outcomes don't matter, only the moral precepts involved in decisions.

And that is all your rants are. An opinion.

Only people who are losing an argument and losing it badly resort to "that's just, like, your opinion, man."

If you care so much about "murder" but not any other circumstance surrounding it, then how can you be for hanging women who've had abortions? Is that not also murder?

No, it's not. Murder is the unjustified killing of a human being by another. Executing people who deserve it is not murder. Soldiers in wars aren't murderers either.

So you are for state-sanctioned murder, but taking people off life support is beyond the pale. Having a non-viable fetus aborted is beyond the pale.

It's amazing to me that such basic concepts are so baffling to you.