The Abortion Debate Containment Thread - Put abortion sperging here.

[Zero Day Defense]

I fail to see how it is wrong to euthanize something that is going to die anyways.

Repeat this statement very carefully.

 

[Eris!]

Repeat this statement very carefully.

Hint: Everyone is going to die anyways.

 

[Last seen: A moment ago]

Well, this thread is a shitfest.

One thing that I've noted skimming through this thread is that some people still think that abortion is a religious issue. That hasn't been the case since at least 1990 when Don Marquis published "Why Abortion is Immoral".

Personally I think the pro-life arguments are better. Definitions from pro-choice philosophers like Stretton, Boonin, Tooley, etc tend to be inconsistent in one way or another.

 

[Eris!]

One thing that I've noted skimming through this thread is that some people still think that abortion is a religious issue.

I've offered no explicitly religious arguments and couched everything in agnostic language and yet still the only replies I get are "ur a religious nutjob hur dur."

 

[Hollywood Hulk Hogan]

You don't get your own reality. There's just one.

Your reality is not the one reality, though.

Forcing you not to kill someone is not forcing that person to live. I had no active part in the creation of their life and bear zero responsibility for it.

You missed my whole post there. Learn to read before you tell us what murder is

Your attempt to mirror my moral superiority in a sad attempt to make me understand how you feel is cute.
The problem is you clearly don't actually believe what you're saying, and I certainly don't.
So it's a stupid argumentative line to pursue.

"Forced to be born" would be a c-section. You don't seem to understand what the word forced means. I would need to take some action that is directly responsible for them being born. I have done no such thing. I have taken literally zero actions and caused literally nothing.

You keep using the word forced wrong.
The rapist forced her to be pregnant. I didn't. I didn't force her to do anything.
All I did was force her not to commit murder.

You are forcing these people to suffer because of your warped view of what murder is. You are thus wanting to be responsible for innocent people suffering. That makes you a sadistic torturer. You should be ashamed of yourself. I know it's difficult because of your autism, but try to think of things from others perspectives.

For every reply you post that contains no arguments I will declare an additional argumentative victory, as you are formally forfeiting the contest.
I have now beaten you in two arguments.

Again, not trying to be a dick, but have you been tested for autism? You show a lot of the signs

 

[Kiyoshi's Wristbrace]

View attachment 1626123

I have thoroughly won this thread.
No one can offer a single counterargument to me that I can't instantly rebut.
It has devolved into pure shitposting in protest of my victory.

I take it you're unfamiliar with this, but it's super fitting for you right now:

 

[Eris!]

I take it you're unfamiliar with this, but it's super fitting for you right now:
View attachment 1626497

Why would you deliberately click on and participate if an internet debate thread if you have contempt for internet debate?
Why am I being treated like an insane person for being the only person who actually wants to participate?

 

[Eris!]

Your reality is not the one reality, though.

What the fuck does "Your reality" even mean?
I don't have a reality. There's just one.

You missed my whole post there. Learn to read before you tell us what murder is

I didn't miss anything.

You are forcing these people to suffer

I am literally not forcing anyone to do anything.

You are thus wanting to be responsible for innocent people suffering.

No lmao. I bear no responsibility for their suffering.

Again, not trying to be a dick, but have you been tested for autism? You show a lot of the signs

Even if I do, so what? Being autistic wouldn't make me wrong. You would still have to actually argue.

 

[Zero Day Defense]

Gamete, whatever, who cares. You can easily tell from context what I meant.

Extending charity, I perhaps could, but you have to remember that that there's a notable "compromise" position that maintains that abortion is okay up to a point of "viability", and while the term "fetus" can serve as a hypernym of "zygote", "zygote" can't be understood to be equivalent to "fetus" when we're discussing at which point it's okay to abort as per the viability argument.

It's easy to sit there and whine about how its evil murder and worse than Hitler when you aren't facing those prospects.

Multiple people in this thread, including you, seem to labor under the misunderstanding that the employment of empathy somehow creates the ultimate rebuttal to the "abortion is murder" argument. You assume that someone on the opposing end would be unable to uphold their values in circumstances that would put them to the test, and then implicitly assert that this hypothetical failure means that the argument itself is wrong.

It's an ad hom argument whose entire foundation is in your head. Whether I sympathize and/or empathize with your plight doesn't detract from my position-- it just means that the ball is still in your court to accept the reality of what you're doing without pretense, even in the presence of mitigating factors (such as making the order in the case where there's a deformity that'll prevent the child from living much longer out of the womb).

 

[Kiyoshi's Wristbrace]

Why would you deliberately click on and participate if an internet debate thread if you have contempt for internet debate?
Why am I being treated like an insane person for being the only person who actually wants to participate?

I honestly can't tell if you're sincere in your arguments or just want internet points for "winning". Seriously, it's hard to tell.

I think your view has its place and everyone else's view has one too. You're problem is you can't see gradients when people don't 100% agree with you. It's all or nothing. That's the problem.

Just because there are situations where people can't support a mentally handicapped child, or think aborting it is the more kind thing to do than a life of pain and hardship, you automatically lump them into the leftist cunts at the Oscars who applaud abortions like popping a birth control pill.

Literally none of the women on here vehemently arguing with you have said anything even remotely on par with anything like that, or "to relish in the blood of the innocent" and whatever kind of extreme you're projecting onto them.

You might not agree with their mindset, but you should at least try to understand it. I'm trying to do that with you too, but like I said, at this point I'm having severe problems even fathoming if this is sincere but misguided or just for attention; you're way too concerned about "winning" in the former's case.

In any case, you need to learn see in gray, not black or white. Because you're going to get into a fierce argument like this literally everywhere, about EVERYTHING, if you can't. And you're not going to ever change someone's mind with this approach either; so it's all just wasted time and effort.

 

[Shady Attorney]

Can we please rename this thread

@Erischan vs THE WORLD​

 

[Hollywood Hulk Hogan]

No lmao. I bear no responsibility for their suffering.

Except you do. You are saying if a child is going to be born to a life of suffering guaranteed (i.e. if screened positive for a disease), they should be born anyway, with the mother having no choice in the matter. That means yes, you would be responsible for their suffering. That makes you a total asshole.

 

[Sweetpeaa]

The pro-lifers will have to see a ''Romania style'' abortion outlawing disaster before they learn. And Romania did learn from what they did, abortion is currently legal there now. It looks like the U.S may have to lean again.

 

[Parallel Moon]

Extending charity, I perhaps could, but you have to remember that that there's a notable "compromise" position that maintains that abortion is okay up to a point of "viability", and while the term "fetus" can serve as a hypernym of "zygote", "zygote" can't be understood to be equivalent to "fetus" when we're discussing at which point it's okay to abort as per the viability argument.


Multiple people in this thread, including you, seem to labor under the misunderstanding that the employment of empathy somehow creates the ultimate rebuttal to the "abortion is murder" argument. You assume that someone on the opposing end would be unable to uphold their values in circumstances that would put them to the test, and then implicitly assert that this hypothetical failure means that the argument itself is wrong.

It's an ad hom argument whose entire foundation is in your head. Whether I sympathize and/or empathize with your plight doesn't detract from my position-- it just means that the ball is still in your court to accept the reality of what you're doing without pretense, even in the presence of mitigating factors (such as making the order in the case where there's a deformity that'll prevent the child from living much longer out of the womb).

Even if you can legally and morally define killing a severely deformed non-viable fetus as murder, it would be immoral to force them to suffer just so that you can claim you are not a murderer. If I had to endure this particular horror, and you called me a murderer for having an abortion, I would not care. I would believe myself to be morally correct in that I prevented horrific suffering from occurring to my child. No amount of shaming me, or jailing me, or executing me would ever make me believe that I made the wrong choice.

If you banned abortion, and I was pregnant with a non-viable fetus, I would travel to another country. In that case I would have an abortion at all costs, even if I risked jail time.

All of the anti-abortion arguments claim that death is the worse fate that any person can endure. I disagree. There are fates worse than death.

It is also just an opinion that it is murder. I don't believe that it is, and many people don't believe that it is. So why do we have to live according to your opinion? You aren't the authority on morality.

It seems that pro-life people like you care more about the quantity of life and give zero consideration to the actual quality of it.

Which seems to be why you care absolutely nothing about the outcomes or circumstances surrounded pregnancies and why you don't care about the condition of the fetus, or the mother, or the economic circumstances it is born into or how society as a whole is supposed to deal with a glut of unwanted or possibly disabled children, or how you are actually going enforce criminalization of abortion.

Not one of you are willing to lay out how you are going to organize a society with criminalized abortion.

Its just "ABORTION IS MURDER!!!!!!" with no other considerations whatsoever.

It isn't even about empathy. Its about the actual logistics of it. You can cry about "personal responsibility" all you want but that won't make people want to care for unwanted children or children they can't afford so something has to be done with them unless you just do not give a shit whatsoever about abandoned children starving on the streets. Or disabled ones that just die because there is no healthcare for them that their parents can afford.

If you are anti-abortion you must be for the expansion of the state. There is no other way to support all of these children, unless you are going to go with forced sterilizations of women you view as undesirables.

"Well they just need to keep their legs shut!!!!!!! Their just sluts!!!!" Yeah, well, good luck stopping Shaniqua and Methhead Mandy from fucking a bunch of men and getting knocked up over and over. How are you going to do that without expanding the state and violating privacy laws?

And no, making abortion illegal isn't going to make people start living some Leave it to Beaver 1950s surburban America life that you all want so badly. Shaniqua will still be Shaniqua. Methhead Mandy will still be sucking dick for meth.

 

[Eris!]

I honestly can't tell if you're sincere in your arguments or just want internet points for "winning". Seriously, it's hard to tell.

I am absolutely sincere and I don't know why you people insist on pretending otherwise.
Actually, I do know. Pretending I'm unreasonable gives you a convenient excuse to ignore my arguments.

I think your view has its place and everyone else's view has one too.

Why would being wrong have its place? Is its place the trash?
On any issue there is one correct viewpoint and infinite incorrect ones. The purpose of an argument is to find out if you chose correctly. An argument is a crucible, and bad arguments are drawn off like the dross.

You're problem is you can't see gradients when people don't 100% agree with you. It's all or nothing. That's the problem.

That's not a problem. There is no gradient between true and false. There is a hard line. Wrong is wrong, and right is right.
Either murdering infants is wrong or it is not wrong. There is no third position, and there is no synthesis of these positions. They are a mutually exclusive binary. There is no theoretical compromise point between them that we can meet. One of us must defeat the other.

Just because there are situations where people can't support a mentally handicapped child, or think aborting it is the more kind thing to do than a life of pain and hardship, you automatically lump them into the leftist cunts at the Oscars who applaud abortions like popping a birth control pill.

Because in all ways that substantially matter and actually effect things, they are identical.
I don't really give a shit if you think slightly differently if you want the exact same things in actuality. Moderate leftism is just a means to extremist leftism, it's just the useful idiots the extremists use, it's not an actual position itself. The people who wanted to legalize gay marriage for totally understandable reasons are the people who caused pedophelia to be normalized. I don't really give a shit if they supported it cognizantly or ignorantly.
I lump you all together because you ARE all together.

Literally none of the women on here vehemently arguing with you have said anything even remotely on par with anything like that,

Yeah because they're full of shit and unwilling to be honest about how evil they are.
My argument in this thread is NOT that abortion is wrong. I am not arguing that. My argument in this thread is that everyone knows abortion is wrong, that the people pretending to disagree in good faith do not, and that all people on the pro-choice side are either lying to you or worse, lying to themselves.
I genuinely 100% believe that it is not possible for good faith disagreement on this issue to exist.
Everyone knows infanticide is wrong. You cannot convince me that there are people who don't know that.

You might not agree with their mindset, but you should at least try to understand it.

Why should I actively try to understand it? It's wrong. There is nothing to be understood in lies.

you're way too concerned about "winning" in the former's case.

It's an argument. I'm trying to win.
I'm frustrated that none of you are trying to win.
Grow some fucking balls and assert your opinions as facts.
Argue with me.

In any case, you need to learn see in gray, not black or white.

Why? Who made all of you people see the world this way, that gave you such obscene worship for grey areas?
The world is black and white, particularly regarding morality. Grey areas are obscenely rare.

Because you're going to get into a fierce argument like this literally everywhere,

Yeah, and?
I genuinely don't understand why you all came to a debate thread if you hate debate and want to avoid it.

And you're not going to ever change someone's mind with this approach either

It's not possible to change someone's mind. I learned this a long time ago. People change their own minds. All you can do is make the cognitive dissonance so unbearable to them that they are forced to either change their mind or run away.

Can we please rename this thread

@Erischan vs THE WORLD​

I didn't take over this thread.
You all gave it to me.

Except you do. You are saying if a child is going to be born to a life of suffering guaranteed (i.e. if screened positive for a disease), they should be born anyway, with the mother having no choice in the matter. That means yes, you would be responsible for their suffering. That makes you a total asshole.

The only way I could be responsible for their suffering is if I was the cause of it. I'm not. Some shitty genetic disease, or poverty, or their mom's life decisions are the cause of it. I have caused nothing.

 

[Eris!]

The pro-lifers will have to see a ''Romania style'' abortion outlawing disaster before they learn. And Romania did learn from what they did, abortion is currently legal there now. It looks like the U.S may have to lean again.

Why do you do this? Why do you just soapbox post in the middle of a CONVERSATION, ignoring all the participants and just talking to the void?

 

[Kiyoshi's Wristbrace]

I am absolutely sincere and I don't know why you people insist on pretending otherwise.
Actually, I do know. Pretending I'm unreasonable gives you a convenient excuse to ignore my arguments.

Why would being wrong have its place? Is its place the trash?
On any issue there is one correct viewpoint and infinite incorrect ones. The purpose of an argument is to find out if you chose correctly. An argument is a crucible, and bad arguments are drawn off like the dross.

That's not a problem. There is no gradient between true and false. There is a hard line. Wrong is wrong, and right is right.
Either murdering infants is wrong or it is not wrong. There is no third position, and there is no synthesis of these positions. They are a mutually exclusive binary. There is no theoretical compromise point between them that we can meet. One of us must defeat the other.

Because in all ways that substantially matter and actually effect things, they are identical.
I don't really give a shit if you think slightly differently if you want the exact same things in actuality. Moderate leftism is just a means to extremist leftism, it's just the useful idiots the extremists use, it's not an actual position itself. The people who wanted to legalize gay marriage for totally understandable reasons are the people who caused pedophelia to be normalized. I don't really give a shit if they supported it cognizantly or ignorantly.
I lump you all together because you ARE all together.

Yeah because they're full of shit and unwilling to be honest about how evil they are.
My argument in this thread is NOT that abortion is wrong. I am not arguing that. My argument in this thread is that everyone knows abortion is wrong, that the people pretending to disagree in good faith do not, and that all people on the pro-choice side are either lying to you or worse, lying to themselves.
I genuinely 100% believe that it is not possible for good faith disagreement on this issue to exist.
Everyone knows infanticide is wrong. You cannot convince me that there are people who don't know that.

Why should I actively try to understand it? It's wrong. There is nothing to be understood in lies.

It's an argument. I'm trying to win.
I'm frustrated that none of you are trying to win.
Grow some fucking balls and assert your opinions as facts.
Argue with me.

Why? Who made all of you people see the world this way, that gave you such obscene worship for grey areas?
The world is black and white, particularly regarding morality. Grey areas are obscenely rare.

Yeah, and?
I genuinely don't understand why you all came to a debate thread if you hate debate and want to avoid it.

It's not possible to change someone's mind. I learned this a long time ago. People change their own minds. All you can do is make the cognitive dissonance so unbearable to them that they are forced to either change their mind or run away.


I didn't take over this thread.
You all gave it to me.


The only way I could be responsible for their suffering is if I was the cause of it. I'm not. Some shitty genetic disease, or poverty, or their mom's life decisions are the cause of it. I have caused nothing.

Autism confirmed.

 

[Eris!]

Autism confirmed.

Again, you ignore all substance and go with an empty insult.
You people have actively convinced me i am more right than I already believed.

No one would behave like this if they were on the right side of the argument.

 

[Kiyoshi's Wristbrace]

Again, you ignore all substance and go with an empty insult.
You people have actively convinced me i am more right than I already believed.

No one would behave like this if they were on the right side of the argument.

I'd have more luck arguing with a brick than with you.

 

[Eris!]

I'd have more luck arguing with a brick than with you.

Why are you so scared of even trying?