You wouldn't, but that's precisely what makes you incapable of having a serious or honest discussion. People who argue in good faith don't start from the assumption that anyone who disagrees with them must be being disingenuous.
I don't think ANYONE who disagrees with me on ANYTHING must be being disingenuous. It is my good faith belief, and I hold to it, that YOU PEOPLE IN PARTICULAR are being disingenuous.
It would be bad faith of me to treat you like you are acting in good faith when I do not think you are.
A society which allowed murder, rape, and theft would never be capable of becoming a civilization, and that's precisely the point I was trying to get you to understand.
Of course it could, and it would be a far more powerful civilization than any of its moral neighbors, likely conquering them.
Morality does not hold us back; on the contrary, morality is arguably the central quality of civilization.
Weird how every pro-choicer in this thread is talking about how morality holds them back.
The crucial difference between my approach to morality and yours is that I start from the belief that morality ought to make sense, because morality serves a purpose; it does not exist for it's own sake.
The crucial difference is that I am talking about morality and you are talking about interpersonal pragmatics.
If you don't think something is
actually wrong, in and of itself, independent of anything, you aren't talking about morality.
he fact remains that if you're going to try to defend the pro-life stance on the grounds of religious precedent, then you are going to lose the argument, because the scriptures do not clearly condemn abortion, and up until about the 19th century, neither did most religious scholars.
I don't recall ever citing scripture in this thread. You guys love to argue against arguments that were never made.
You haven't been describing right and wrong at all, you've been making bald assertions about right and wrong, and then hoping that people won't notice when you don't show your working
If you need to see any "working" for murder being wrong you are insane and should probably be in a mental asylum.
It is a bad faith request.
the difference is that I have a solid grasp of the values which inform my definitions of the terms.
My only value is morality. I have no other values.
I very clearly do have an ideology; the difference is that I'm not an ideologue, like you.
You clearly don't believe anything. Your "morality" is merely self-interest writ large. Your "values" are merely "I wanna be happy and comfy and good things feel nice and bad things feel bad." You are an NPC. Nothing is inside your head. There is no spiritual or mental difference between you and a beast. You share the same "morality" as a wild animal. I will not debase myself by treating this as a legitimate viewpoint when it is not.
On the contrary, I recognize the differences of opinion which exist between different Christian denominations on the subject of abortion. It's the pro-life camp who like to pretend that these differences don't matter and that Christianity as a whole takes a firm line on the subject; which it clearly doesn't, and hasn't historically.
Differences in the opinions of men categorically do not matter.
As Charles I said: "It is not my apprehension, nor yours neither, that ought to decide."
You cherry picked an extreme circumstance that doesn't apply to the vast majority of abortions. Is that video even American?
You people have been trying to keep this debate squarely within the realm of the .01% of abortions that are rape and the 1% of abortions that are non-elective and life threatening. Eat a fat dick, you are the cherrypicking kings. When you condemn the 99% of abortions that are literally just premeditated murder then and only then can we talk about the nuance of that 1%. I would be significantly more open to discussion on euthanizing obscenely disabled children or finding a way for a rape victim to not be traumatized by pregnancy if both weren't clearly just attempts to weaponize my empathy to legalize mass infanticide which could not be justified on its own.
If you use a motte and bailey, it pisses people off. We're gonna call you cunts for being disingenuous, and we're gonna refuse to give you any compromise whatsoever. Never, ever hide your intentions or use appeals that aren't your true justifications. When people figure it out, they will turn on even your good ideas.
Dishonesty is the greatest of all sins, for Truth is above even God.
