The Abortion Debate Containment Thread - Put abortion sperging here.

[AnOminous]

Okay fair enough, well I completely disagree with that. I think giving every women a free abortion whenever they want and for whatever reason is extreme, but atleast you're consistent. Let's just agree to disagree then, we obviously have different views on this and I guess Sinner's Sandwich is correct, this isn't a thread about abortion.

So long as this has been dumped into a containment thread I might as well throw in one last clarifying comment, which is that my opinion isn't quite as categorical as I said (largely to shorten it to avoid derailing even more), but would except abortions that shouldn't happen at all, like non-medically necessary third trimester abortions, which arguably shouldn't be allowed at all.

And my main issue with prohibiting even those is who gets to decide what is medically necessary? It sure the fuck isn't politicians.

Misery and suffering makes people stronger. You're acting like this is a bad thing. It's not.

Statistically, that's bullshit. It makes them criminals, it makes them fuckups, it makes them a drain on society.

 

[Shaka Brah]

smart people and super geniuses (like myself)

 

[Samson Pumpkin Jr.]

Statistically, that's bullshit. It makes them criminals, it makes them fuckups, it makes them a drain on society.

Those are black "people," or gorillas as they should properly be called, who do that, not real living actual human beings. Human beings learn from their mistakes, Africans do not.
edit: I'm not racist btw

 

[Android raptor]

What's the context to that video for people who don't want to click on something like that without an idea of what they'll see?

Pretty sure that video is stillborns being washed and prepared for burial. I know the prolife crowd likes to share still images of that very thing falsely claiming they're aborted fetuses (the irony is one of the most famous pictures was taken in Brazil, which actually has extremely strict laws on abortion to the point even child rape victims have to get permission from a judge to have them).

Pretty much none of the shock images or videos prolifers parade around are actually aborted fetuses, given that abortions that late in gestation are extremely rare and usually done due to fetal abnormality. Most actual abortions don't really look like much of anything since they happen so early on. Prolifers wouldn't be able to get the shock or emotional reaction by using a pic of something that looks more like a heavy-flow day than anything else, so they take pictures of miscarriages and stillborns that were fairly far and lie about the context.

The irony is the images they use were almost certainly wanted pregnancies and probably one of the worst things to happen in the mother's life, since loss of a wanted pregnancy is extremely traumatizing. So not only are prolifers lying, they're lying about something that was probably horrible and traumatic for someone. Classy.

I've been wondering for a while if the prolife crowd has ever stolen an image from one of the poison womb types, because that would sure to be some amazing drama if it ever happened.

 

[marfusha]

This whole prolife argument is pointless. Abortions happen and will happen whether you think it's wrong or not.
Studies show that abortion rates are similar in countries where it's legal and where it's banned. The only thing abortion ban causes is increase in female mortality rate due to unsafe procedures. If a woman doesn't want to have a baby she will find a way to terminate a pregnancy.

 

[Android raptor]

This whole prolife argument is pointless. Abortions happen and will happen whether you think it's wrong or not.
Studies show that abortion rates are similar in countries where it's legal and where it's banned. The only thing abortion ban causes is increase in female mortality rate due to unsafe procedures. If a woman doesn't want to have a baby she will find a way to terminate a pregnancy.

Lowkey think women and girls dying from illegal abortions is the point for some prolifers since some come off as more than a little bit misogynistic.

Plus fundies make it no secret that they view women as inferior and existing only to be broodmares so they probably think death is a justified punishment for daring to want to end a pregnancy.

 

[Lemmingwise]

This whole prolife argument is pointless. Abortions happen and will happen whether you think it's wrong or not.
Studies show that abortion rates are similar in countries where it's legal and where it's banned. The only thing abortion ban causes is increase in female mortality rate due to unsafe procedures. If a woman doesn't want to have a baby she will find a way to terminate a pregnancy.

This seems to be false.

First, the reasoning does not follow. Murder rates may be similar across countries, but that would not change the moral status. I get that the moral status of abortion is a central point of that disagreement is built on. But if you look at the crime of murder, should we stop prosecuting it if it made no difference to the murder rate? That's not a rhetorical question. Should everything that can not be prevented, be legal?

But that is the essential part of the argument, now to look at the data you're supposing, an equal abortian rate across all countries, including those where it is legal and where not.

Even a cursory glance seems to disagree.
It's ust a cursory google, but here's what the UN numbers say:

Feel free to share any data you have that says otherwise.

 

[Android raptor]

Lots of abortions in Mexico probably aren't recorded given that Mexico has strict abortion laws, which women get around with misoprostol (which you can buy OTC there). Misoprostol is one of the main drugs used for abortion via pill and you can do it in the privacy of your home. I've heard American women from Texas will even drive across the border to get it because it's much cheaper and easier to get than getting it legally in Texas.

Misoprostol is also very safe to use, so in terms of DIY abortion because you can't access it or live somewhere it's illegal that's probably your best bet by far.

But yeah it's probably hard to get accurate numbers in a country where women would likely tend to not disclose having abortions and where most are done at home instead of clinics.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Lots of abortions in Mexico probably aren't recorded

Sure, it might well be the case that certain shitholes have poor records, but I don't think that is true for Belgium and Austria and they have significantly different rates, while still both being at the same tail end supposedly.

The claim that abortion rate is universal. If you ignore the stats and say that the stats must be wrong because it has to be similar, it becomes a circular argument.

 

[Android raptor]

Sure, it might well be the case that certain shitholes have poor records, but I don't think that is true for Belgium and Austria and they have significantly different rates, while still both being at the same tail end supposedly.

The claim that abortion rate is universal. If you ignore the stats and say that the stats must be wrong because it has to be similar, it becomes a circular argument.

Don't Belgium and Austria have shit like universal healthcare, access to contraception, and mandatory comprehensive sex ed? Since that shit is the only thing proven to actually lower abortion rates I wouldn't be surprised if that's why the rates in those countries are low.

Pretty sure abortion is accessible and not seriously restricted or banned in those countries as well.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Don't Belgium and Austria have shit like universal healthcare, access to contraception, and mandatory comprehensive sex ed? Since that shit is the only thing proven to actually lower abortion rates I wouldn't be surprised if that's why the rates in those countries are low.

Pretty sure abortion is accessible and not seriously restricted or banned in those countries as well.

So you agree? The argument had no data to support it.

 

[marfusha]

Feel free to share any data you have that says otherwise.

This for example https://web.archive.org/web/20140324063058/http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/85456.php
Most of the countries from your list have liberal abortion laws. The reason the have low rates is accessible contraceptives. Further proves a point that bans are not effective.

 

[Lemmingwise]

https://web.archive.org/web/20140324063058/http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/85456.php

Most of the countries from your list have liberal abortion laws. The reason the have low rates is accessible contraceptives. Further proves a point that bans are not effective

Okay, so you don't take issue with the data I presented.

Which shows very disparate abortion rates even at one tail end (countries with least abortion).

And continue to claim that abortion rates are similar across all countries regardless of abortion law.

When they aren't even similar in countries with comparable abortion laws.

But the fact that they aren't similar is somehow also proof of your assertion, even though your claim rested on them being similar.

In other words, it doesn't matter what the data shows, you have a belief not based on any data.

You also haven't adressed the core argument about the moral issue that made the argument redundant in the first place. Should we stop punishing theft if it does not reduce theft?

It is in essence a moral question, not one of "how to best legislate it to prevent it".

Ps. Now that I fully read the article, their conclusions don't even follow from their claim, which is par for the course for the World Health Organisation and all their blunders in regards to covid in the last 14 months.

1. Their numbers are made up (estimation by their own claim)
2. They depend on comparisons to Uganda, not exactly a country known for their lawfulness, or even accurate recordkeeping
3. They depend on interviews with local "family planning experts" which is about as biased a sample as if you only interviewed catholic priests.

 

[marfusha]

Okay, so you don't take issue with the data I presented.

Which shows very disparate abortion rates even at one tail end (countries with least abortion).

And continue to claim that abortion rates are similar across all countries regardless of abortion law.

When they aren't even similar in countries with comparable abortion laws.

But the fact that they aren't similar is somehow also proof of your assertion, even though your claim rested on them being similar.

In other words, it doesn't matter what the data shows, you have a belief not based on any data.

You also haven't adressed the core argument about the moral issue that made the argument redundant in the first place. Should we stop punishing theft if it does not reduce theft?

It is in essence a moral question, not one of "how to best legislate it to prevent it".

Dude are you ok? You've asked for a source, I've sent you one.
Anyway I hope you realize that your heated tyrades are not going to save any fetuses.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Dude are you ok? You've asked for a source, I've sent you one.
Anyway I hope you realize that your heated tyrades are not going to save any fetuses.

I guess personal attacks are a substitute for arguments now.

Don't you even care that the data you're using to form your opinion was made up?

 

[Android raptor]

Common sense would dictate that in places with restrictive abortion laws or total bans the numbers will probably be even higher than what can be recorded due to the fact that women fear being punished legally for admitting they've had one. However even with that in mind the data still shows that overall restrictive countries tend to have slightly higher rates than countries with good access to abortion (probably due to those countries also being better with contraception access and comprehensive sex ed).

I don't know of there's anything to back it up, but I also suspect rates of infanticide are probably higher in countries that restrict or ban abortion since prior to abortion methods that are both safe and reliable that was one common way unwanted kids were dealt with historically.

Thankfully there are charities that try to provide misoprostol to women living in areas that ban or heavily restrict abortion. Unfortunately those charities can probably only do so much.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Common sense would dictate that in places with restrictive abortion laws or total bans the numbers will probably be even higher than what can be recorded due to the fact that women fear being punished legally for admitting they've had one. However even with that in mind the data still shows that overall restrictive countries tend to have slightly higher rates than countries with good access to abortion (probably due to those countries also being better with contraception access and comprehensive sex ed).

I don't know of there's anything to back it up, but I also suspect rates of infanticide are probably higher in countries that restrict or ban abortion since prior to abortion methods that are both safe and reliable that was one common way unwanted kids were dealt with historically.

Thankfully there are charities that try to provide misoprostol to women living in areas that ban or heavily restrict abortion. Unfortunately those charities can probably only do so much.

Again, the data does not support what you're saying.

Austria has had abortion legal since 1975 and has one of the lowest rates worldwide (1.3 per woman between 15-44). In Vietnam it has been legal since 1960 and has one of the highest rates worldwide (35.2 per).

It's also legal in russia with the highest rate of all countries. Comparable to the likely abortion rate of India, where it is not (but we're guessing).

I have yet to see any data that supports the idea that abortions are common in western type countries where it is illegal.

The original study that Roe v Wade used was based on Kinsey's fraudulent research. Almost half of Kinsey's sample of "married women" were prostitutes that lived with their pimp.

I recognize that those are vulnerable women, but of course that kind of selection bias is going to skew your numbers sky high.

 

[Android raptor]

Again, the data does not support what you're saying.

Austria has had abortion legal since 1975 and has one of the lowest rates worldwide (1.3 per woman between 15-44). In Vietnam it has been legal since 1960 and has one of the highest rates worldwide (35.2 per).

It's also legal in russia with the highest rate of all countries. Comparable to the likely abortion rate of India, where it is not (but we're guessing).

I have yet to see any data that supports the idea that abortions are common in western type countries where it is illegal.

The original study that Roe v Wade used was based on Kinsey's fraudulent research. Almost half of Kinsey's sample of "married women" were prostitutes that lived with their pimp.

I recognize that those are vulnerable women, but of course that kind of selection bias is going to skew your numbers sky high.

Vietnam and Russia are also poorer, more conservative countries where i doubt all women and girls are getting comprehensive sex ed and access to contraception.

The only things proven to actually reduce abortion rates are universal access to contraception and comprehensive sex ed for everyone. If you don't like abortion, that is what you should be pushing for. It's not possible to completely eliminate it, but you can at least reduce it (and also make it so women and girls can get it safely and not die from illegal abortions).

 

[L50LasPak]

A society with legal abortion is one that to some extent will regulate its gene pool by voluntarily destroying the progeny of people who shouldn't be reproducing anyway. An unborn child only has the potential of the parents that raise it and/or the genetics of said parents.

Is the fetus conscious at the stage abortion is allowed? Can it feel pain? Who cares. Its going to carry on the legacy of the shitty people who are having it if its allowed to live. Do you think a woman who would willingly kill her own child would be a good mother? Neither do I. Yeah it sucks that society has to foot the bill for this, but in my opinion I'd rather have a couple of buckets of dead babies than a population that's going to grow up to be more criminals and lowlives anyway. We probably save a lot of resources and taxpayer money by getting rid of them before they can cause any trouble this way.

 

[Android raptor]

It would be nice if taxpayer dollars in the US could cover abortion, but unfortunately thanks to the Hyde Amendment that's not the case.

I kinda wish I lived in the world prolifers seem to think exists, where abortion is covered by the Gov and even late-term abortions are easily accessible to everyone.