The Abortion Debate Containment Thread - Put abortion sperging here.

[Hollywood Hulk Hogan]

How is that relevant?

Well, you are the one who is saying she shouldn't be able to abort, but that she isn't being forced to raise her child. Which is it? Or what options does she have?

 

[Eris!]

you are the one who is saying she shouldn't be able to abort, but that she isn't being forced to raise her child.

Both.

Or what options does she have?

Irrelevant. The absence of alternatives does not constitute force. You have no alternative but to breathe right now, but no one is forcing you to breathe. I don't care what her alternatives are, or what she does. All I care about is that she may not do morally impermissible act of murder.

 

[ADHD]

Then what options does she have?

She can force an aunt to raise it, of course. Whether the aunt likes it or not.

Let an aunt raise the kid.

How do you force an aunt to take the baby if she doesn't want it?

With force.

 

[Hollywood Hulk Hogan]

Both.

Irrelevant. The absence of alternatives does not constitute force. You have no alternative but to breathe right now, but no one is forcing you to breathe. I don't care what her alternatives are, or what she does. All I care about is that she may not do morally impermissible act of murder.

What? You are literally taking away her only choice NOT to bear the child. Thus ,you are forcing her to bear the child. You're literally contradicting yourself here bro

 

[Eris!]

She can force an aunt to raise it, of course. Whether the aunt likes it or not.

He asked how do you, not how should you. I was being flippant in response to a stupid question.

What? You are literally taking away her only choice NOT to bear the child. Thus ,you are forcing her to bear the child.

That's not how force works. I would need to take active measures which actively cause her to raise the child. I would need to beat her and say "RAISE YOUR CHILD!" I have applied no force to her which causes a result. I have forced nothing.

 

[Hollywood Hulk Hogan]

He asked how do you, not how should you. I was being flippant in response to a stupid question.


That's not how force works. I would need to take active measures which actively cause her to raise the child. I would need to beat her and say "RAISE YOUR CHILD!" I have applied no force to her which causes a result. I have forced nothing.

That is exactly how force works.

You are saying she should not be legally allowed to abort. Thus, her only choice is to bear the child. What other option is there?

 

[Muh Vagina]

Try answering correctly this time.

Does it make a difference?

Yes, it makes a difference. Abortion laws don't affect you in any way.

I've mostly quit replying to this thread, because it's gotten really fucking autistic and I don't see the situation improving anytime soon, but I saw a really stupid post that I want to reply to.

This is the 'If you aren't woman then not only does this not effect you, but you also lack the knowledge and therefore right to speak about this' argument. This is stupid, because its only purpose is to keep men out of the conversation. Being a woman does not make anyone inherently more or less qualified to speak about abortion. The only difference between men and women when it comes down to the abortion debate is that women are more affected by abortion laws then men (though men are still very affected). Even if men were completely unaffected by abortion laws, I don't see why that would invalidate their opinion. Actually, I think one could make the argument that, if men were completely unaffected by abortion laws, their opinions on abortion would be more valid than those of a woman due to their objectivity. I mean look the situation with Kashmir for a minute. If you wanted to have an informed, unbiased take on what's going on in Kashmir and you could only go to one of three people, an Indian Hindu, a Pakistani Muslim, or a Japanese guy for information who would you go to (provided they were all equally educated on the issue)? The correct answer would have to be the Japanese guy, because he doesn't have skin in the game; he's just going to tell you what he knows.

Why should men have a say on whether or not a woman should stay pregnant if she doesn't want to? They're not the ones who have to deal with 9 months of morning sickness, swollen ankles, mood swings, hemorrhoids, constant peeing, stretch marks, gas, fatigue, yeast infections, diarrhea, bleeding gums, constipation, acne, gross discharges, and other symptoms. They don't have to squeeze an entire human being out of a tiny opening while naked, screaming, crying, shitting, and tearing from your v to your a. They don't have to endure c sections. They don't have to spend weeks to months recovering. Giving birth is a life threatening and painful procedure, you fucking tards! Nobody should be forced to endure that!

There's a reason that I never contribute to any of the circumcision threads. I don't have a dick, so I really shouldn't be telling men how to feel about their foreskins or lack thereof.

And for all of you pro-life women, you decide what to do with your body and let the rest of us decide to do with ours, mkay?

 

[AnimeGirlConnoisseur]

Yes, it makes a difference. Abortion laws don't affect you in any way.

Why should men have a say on whether or not a woman should stay pregnant if she doesn't want to? They're not the ones who have to deal with 9 months of morning sickness, swollen ankles, mood swings, hemorrhoids, constant peeing, stretch marks, gas, fatigue, yeast infections, diarrhea, bleeding gums, constipation, acne, gross discharges, and other symptoms. They don't have to squeeze an entire human being out of a tiny opening while naked, screaming, crying, shitting, and tearing from your v to your a. They don't have to endure c sections. They don't have to spend weeks to months recovering. Giving birth is a life threatening and painful procedure, you fucking tards! Nobody should be forced to endure that!

There's a reason that I never contribute to any of the circumcision threads. I don't have a dick, so I really shouldn't be telling men how to feel about their foreskins or lack thereof.

And for all of you pro-life women, you decide what to do with your body and let the rest of us decide to do with ours, mkay?

Woah, that was a lot of guilt-tripping.

I think that men should have a say on abortion laws for three reasons: The first is that it is partially a discussion on how we define personhood, which effects everyone. Secondly, regardless of whether or not you accept the premise that a fetus is a person, you have to admit that fetuses that were aborted would have grown into people whose rights you recognize if they were never aborted. These people would have been your fellow citizens; possibly even your friends, coworkers, or lover. The existence or non-existence of these people effects everyone. Finally, why should anyone not be allowed to have an opinion on things that don't involve them? If you think circumcision is good or bad then you should be allowed to say whatever you want about it regardless of your sex. Saying that women shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion on circumcision is like saying a Japanese man isn't allowed to say "Oh, this is horrible." when shown an article like this (https://www.npr.org/2019/06/10/7313...s-6-men-in-rape-and-murder-of-8-year-old-girl), because nothing that happens in Kashmir will ever affect Japan.

Also, have you ever given birth? If you haven't, why should I (provided I'm adopting your argument), believe anything you have to say on the matter? If it never personally happened to you, then who are you to say that it's good or bad?

 

[FuckedUp]

this thread in a nutshell

 

[Eris!]

Thus, her only choice is to bear the child. What other option is there?

That's irrelevant. I genuinely don't know why you're asking. It's a non-sequitur.

Yes, it makes a difference. Abortion laws don't affect you in any way.

That's also irrelevant. Nothing you people say ever seems to be relevant.

Why should men have a say on whether or not a woman should stay pregnant if she doesn't want to?

No one gets a say in whether or not murder is wrong. It is. Your re-framing of the issue as "stay pregnant" is an absurdity I won't consider.

They're not the ones who have to deal with 9 months of morning sickness, swollen ankles, mood swings, hemorrhoids, constant peeing, stretch marks, gas, fatigue, yeast infections, diarrhea, bleeding gums, constipation, acne, gross discharges, and other symptoms. They don't have to squeeze an entire human being out of a tiny opening while naked, screaming, crying, shitting, and tearing from your v to your a. They don't have to endure c sections. They don't have to spend weeks to months recovering. Giving birth is a life threatening and painful procedure, you fucking tards! Nobody should be forced to endure that!

Not a single word in this sentence is relevant to murder being wrong.

There's a reason that I never contribute to any of the circumcision threads. I don't have a dick, so I really shouldn't be telling men how to feel about their foreskins or lack thereof.

Mutilating someone's dick is wrong. That is a fact. It literally does not matter who you are, it's still true. If you say it, you are right.

And for all of you pro-life women, you decide what to do with your body and let the rest of us decide to do with ours, mkay?

You're not deciding what to do with your body. You're deciding what to do with your victim's body.

 

[Muh Vagina]

Secondly, regardless of whether or not you accept the premise that a fetus is a person, you have to admit that fetuses that were aborted would have grown into people whose rights you recognize if they were never aborted. These people would have been your fellow citizens; possibly even your friends, coworkers, or lover

They could have been the next Jeffrey Dahmer too. And?

Fetuses are not considered legal people. The unborn don't have rights. The bodily autonomy of the pregnant woman is more important.

EDIT: @Erischan murder is defined as illegal killing. Abortion is legal. Therefore, abortion isn't murder. Your fee fees don't matter. You don't get to define the law.

 

[Hollywood Hulk Hogan]

That's irrelevant. I genuinely don't know why you're asking. It's a non-sequitur.

It damn well is relevant. You are saying she can't abort, but that you aren't forcing her to bear her child. What other option is there? She's either going to give birth, or not. The only way she doesn't give birth is abortion. Unless you know a third option that you won't reveal

 

[Eris!]

They could have been the next Jeffrey Dahmer too. And?

Fetuses are not considered legal people. The unborn don't have rights. The bodily autonomy of the pregnant woman is more important.

EDIT: @Erischan murder is defined as illegal killing. Abortion is legal. Therefore, abortion isn't murder. Your fee fees don't matter. You don't get to define the law.

I don't care about the law.
This is a question of morality.

You are saying she can't abort, but that you aren't forcing her to bear her child.

Correct.

What other option is there?

I don't care? That's none of my business and isn't relevant. I'm not responsible for her options.

Unless you know a third option that you won't reveal

There doesn't need to be one.

 

[Muh Vagina]

Right. And it's immoral to force a woman to remain pregnant if she doesn't want to be. It's also immoral to value the life of a nonsentient blob the size of a kidney bean over that of a fully formed person with loved ones who can think and feel pain.

 

[Eris!]

And it's immoral to force a woman to remain pregnant of she doesn't want to be.

Yes, raping a woman is wrong.
I'm not forcing anyone to do anything.

It's also immoral to value the life of a nobsentient blob the size of a kidney bean over that of a fully formed person with loved ones who can think and feel pain.

I don't value either. Murder is wrong and impermissible.

 

[AnimeGirlConnoisseur]

They could have been the next Jeffrey Dahmer too. And?

Fetuses are not considered legal people. The unborn don't have rights. The bodily autonomy of the pregnant woman is more important.

EDIT: @Erischan murder is defined as illegal killing. Abortion is legal. Therefore, abortion isn't murder. Your fee fees don't matter. You don't get to define the law.

You're missing the point. If an aborted fetus was the next Jeffery Dahmer then he would have grown up to kill men (thank you for picking a serial killer that exclusively targeted men, that really saves me some trouble). As being raped and murdered is by no means a trivial event in a man's life, I think it's safe to say that the decision of whether or not it is acceptable to abort Dahmer 2.0 is one that will affects men.
Your argument about the unborn not having any rights is just stupid. Laws are just shit written down on a piece of paper by people who have political power, not orders from a higher being. When another group of people gains power they throw away the old laws and write new ones. None of this really changes who does and doesn't deserve to be treated like a person. If 95% of the world's population woke up tomorrow and decided to crown me king of the world and my first decree was that you aren't a person and don't deserve any rights then would that make killing you okay?
Also, you didn't respond to the rest of my post. Why shouldn't a Japanese guy be allowed to have an opinion on Kashmir and how many children have you given birth to?

 

[Eris!]

Your argument about the unborn not having any rights is just stupid. Laws are just shit written down on a piece of paper by people who have political power, not orders from a higher being. When another group of people gains power they throw away the old laws and write new ones. None of this really changes who does and doesn't deserve to be treated like a person. If 95% of the world's population woke up tomorrow and decided to crown me king of the world and my first decree was that you aren't a person and don't deserve any rights then would that make killing you okay?

By this guy's logic slaves were not having their rights violated because slavery was legal.

 

[Hollywood Hulk Hogan]

By this guy's logic slaves were not having their rights violated because slavery was legal.

By your logic slavery should be legal because you aren't forcing anyone to be a slave

 

[Tomboy Respecter]

Yes, it's everyone else in the thread calling you on your shit that's wrong and not you.

You are fine with killing people you don't like. You're not okay with abortion. You're also fine with forcing women who are raped to raise their rape baby, finances be damned. You're also fine with forcing people who would be born to a life of suffering to be born into that life without being able to have the mercy of not being born.

You're not only a fascist, you're pro-torture and a pretty terrible person

None of you have actually made a substantiative argument for why abortion isn’t murder and is a good thing. All your arguments have been are essentially the bickering of old stupid hens, except for haurchefant (and even he wasn’t fully on board with your lines of reasoning. He just brought up the good example of ectopic pregnancies and the problems them may cause to the mother). Erischan may be autistic, but at least he’s intelligent enough to defend his positions on rational grounds. I actually do not know how you can be an adult and not defend something you hold so dear on a rational basis in some sense. It’s pathetic but entertaining to watch.

 

[Hollywood Hulk Hogan]

None of you have actually made a substantiative argument for why abortion isn’t murder and is a good thing. All your arguments have been are essentially the bickering of old stupid hens, except for haurchefant (and even he wasn’t fully on board with tour lines of reasoning. He just brought up the good example of ectopic pregnancies and the problems them may cause to the mother). Erischan may be autistic, but at least he’s intelligent enough to defend his positions on rational grounds. I actually do not know how you can be an adult and not defend something you hold so dear on a rational basis in some sense. It’s pathetic but entertaining to watch.

Abortion isn't murder. A nickle-sized lump of cells isn't a sentient being yet.