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The Abortion Debate Containment Thread - Put abortion sperging here.
- Thread starter Sweetpeaa
- Start date
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- Feb 3, 2013
Up thread. You said you weren't forcing her to have the baby if she can't get an abortion. So what's the other option?
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- Jul 8, 2019
But you just said I said there was another option.
Those are different sentences, you understand that right?
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No, there are no other options. If a woman is pregnant, what are her options besides abortion and having the baby?
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I can't even begin to quote all of you autists and I'm sorry if I missed anybody's response, but I'll contain my arguments here:
1. Fetuses and embryos aren't infants according to the medical definition: https://pediatrics.aappublications....=A fetus is defined from,than 365 days of age. Therefore, it isn't infanticide and nobody is "killing children!!1!!"
2. "Why should the child be punished for the rapist's actions?" Why should the rape victim have to suffer through nine months of pregnancy and a painful birth? The embryo won't even know what's happening to it if it's aborted and it won't feel a thing.
3. Your definition of personhood is not universal.
4. Abortion is not murder. Murder is defined as illegal killing. Abortion is legal.
5. Only those blue haired "Shout your abortion" radfems actually think that abortion is "good". Normal people see it as a medical procedure that is a necessary evil.
6. That surrogate bitch who gave birth to the potato baby and gave it up after putting everybody through this huge ordeal is a piece of shit and I will die on this hill. All of that REEEEING and she couldn't be bothered to raise the kid herself?
7. I have never given birth (I'm child free), but as somebody with lady bits, I know that I really don't want to experience the pains of labor. Especially the tearing: https://www.whattoexpect.com/pregnancy/ask-heidi/episiotomy.aspx
Now mind your own fucking business and let women choose how to handle their pregnancies.
1. Fetuses and embryos aren't infants according to the medical definition: https://pediatrics.aappublications....=A fetus is defined from,than 365 days of age. Therefore, it isn't infanticide and nobody is "killing children!!1!!"
2. "Why should the child be punished for the rapist's actions?" Why should the rape victim have to suffer through nine months of pregnancy and a painful birth? The embryo won't even know what's happening to it if it's aborted and it won't feel a thing.
3. Your definition of personhood is not universal.
4. Abortion is not murder. Murder is defined as illegal killing. Abortion is legal.
5. Only those blue haired "Shout your abortion" radfems actually think that abortion is "good". Normal people see it as a medical procedure that is a necessary evil.
6. That surrogate bitch who gave birth to the potato baby and gave it up after putting everybody through this huge ordeal is a piece of shit and I will die on this hill. All of that REEEEING and she couldn't be bothered to raise the kid herself?
7. I have never given birth (I'm child free), but as somebody with lady bits, I know that I really don't want to experience the pains of labor. Especially the tearing: https://www.whattoexpect.com/pregnancy/ask-heidi/episiotomy.aspx
Now mind your own fucking business and let women choose how to handle their pregnancies.
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No I didn't.
But it's correct.
Well that explains that.
No.
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I already did a bunch of times and you dodged the question. Now answer it.
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1) Medical professionals aren't philosophers and they frankly don't have the time to deal with issues such as this when they have to be treating patients. I'm not beholden to a medical professionals definition of a philosophical term frankly, just like I don't give a shit about what a mechanic thinks about astrophysics: it's out of the scope of their job. That's literally why ethicists (and bioethicists) exist. Plus, I'm not even talking in the strictly medical sense (which it's still fucking true there but whatever). I'm talking about the fact that it makes no sense on an ontological level for a non-human to be nurtured and come out of a human via a process that is supposed to create more humans and then when does the fetus become human if not at conception? No pro-abortion person has ever gave me a good answer to this really, because it's arbitrary as fuck. At least with the ice cube-fetus sort of analogy, you can conceive (pun intended) that there is no fundamental change in the nature of the fetus from non-human to human past the moment of conception. What change is there that makes this non-human clump of cells human? Even Peter Singer, a very pro-abortion ethicist, agrees with me here. It makes more fucking sense to say the fetus is human as soon as the necessary perquisite of the sperm fertilizing the egg is met. It's literally the same with every other thing that reproduces sexually. Why is it magically different with humans?
2) C-sections exist you know. I'm pretty sure you can get them on request. Also, what does sentience have to do with anything? If you are murdered in your sleep or a deep coma and don't feel it, it doesn't make it right all of a sudden.
3) And? Some people's definition of Earth includes that it's flat. That doesn't make the Earth flat.
4) Murder is killing done in such a manner that it is unjustifiable. It goes past even just a legal definition, it is a description of the moral nature of the act. We went over this earlier in the thread.
5) And I'm saying it's not because it is the sort of evil that is fundamentally unjustifiable since it is the murder of those that are completely unable to defend themselves against it and vulnerable, something that anyone sane would realize is an affront to justice.
6) She did what's best for her and her child. What's the problem with that? It's unfortunate yes, but that's life.
7) Not really surprising you are childless and afraid of having kids. That honestly seems to be a theme among the people in this thread that go past not caring about to straight up vouching for it.
Also, that last part is fucking dumb. So can't men have a say in whether they want to raise their children or not? Like 99.5% of abortions aren't the cases of rape and incest, so why is it that the woman's right to kill her child matters but the man has no say? The child wasn't made in a fucking vaccum: it is the child of a mother and a father. Plus, if something is a fucking moral evil, then I'm not going ton pussyfoot around it and pretend it doesn't exist. I'd call it out any day of the week because it's a fucking aberration to God.
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Samson Pumpkin Jr.
kiwifarms.net
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- Jun 13, 2020
There are a lot of things "science" speculates about. Having a "medical definition" doesn't even begin to encompass the full reality of the world. What about a philosophical definition of what's a human? You cannot get these answers from soulless Jewish science
Is going through pregnancy really suffering? Even if it is, which I don't believe it is, struggle builds character. Ultimately the "pain" of pregnancy will leave someone better off than before. If the mom is so concerned about the pain of labour the c section exists
Nobody in this thread said "abortion is illegal therefore it's wrong," so I don't even what this point is supposed to address.
There is no such thing as a necessary evil. If something is necessary it is good. Abortion isn't necessary and it's not good. Giving to charity isn't necessary but it's good. We would like to build a society which matches, as closely, what we see as morally good even if there's some pain in the process.
The state will prescribe morality whether you like or not. The fact that the state allows abortion means that it's at least morally permissible, but we know that those at the top are demonic and actually think it's a good thing. This attitude of "let people do their own thing" is destroying our countries. We need to control the actions of people because we know what's best for them. we know what's best for our people. Libertarians think the world will be solved through economics. They think that once muslims become 20% of the population we can just make fun of them like any other group. When muslims become 20% of the population you'll see some real shit.
Maybe the most important reason I am against abortion is maintaining a Christian majority. Muslims don't come to the west to build families; they build tribes.
Samson Pumpkin Jr.
kiwifarms.net
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- Jun 13, 2020
this is sort of makes sense now that I think about it. if a=b and b=c then c=a. basically a zygote = a baby and a baby = a person and a person is a zygote. the only thing that you could add to the equation is time. a mountain+erosion = hill. And I guess the argument Hogan could make is that a zygote+growth = a baby. But then we would need to go into the details of what growth is, but that shit is too esoteric and boring
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But a person is not a zygote. A baby doesn't know it's being aborted when it's just a clump of cells. If it doesn't have sentience, it won't know. Why force a baby to be born into a life of poverty or pain? Seems like a shitty thing to do.
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Most of the people I see who are against abortion are men who also think food-stamps and single mother's welfare should be cut--What gives?
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A person is different things at different times. At one time, you are a child. At another, you are a young adult and yet another an elderly individual. None of these are any more or less a person than another, so it stands to reason that the most basic stage of the human life cycle, a zygote, is a person. Unless you can magically determine how this isn't the case (protip: it isn't sentience. We still describe people in deep comas as people and that would be correct). A person in a coma that's murdered doesn't understand nor feel the murder, but it's still wrong because you are taking the life of another person unjustly (they didn't do something to deserve it, namely something that would threaten the self-preservation instinct that we all hold and violate our human dignity). Also, if the tradeoff is a shitty life versus being dead, it stands to reason that since humans and every other animal out there have the instinct of self-preservation, they would rather choose a shitty one since they'll still be alive.
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So if you were to be born with harlequin ichthyosis, you'd rather have to live for 2 years in constant, horrible pain before you die from infection rather than just being put out of your misery before you even have a thought? Not me
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You can't quote it because it doesn't exist.
Notice how his response to a well thought out post about what constitutes a person is completely irrelevant to the post. Complete non-sequitur arguments, with no point-counterpoint possible. Bro are you a markov bot?
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- Feb 3, 2013
For the 100th time, you said that you wanted abortion to be illegal, but that a pregnant woman would still not be forced to have a child. So there's another option, then. What is it?