The Elder Scrolls

[LORD IMPERATOR]

And then the Dominion would have an open path to Cyrodil. Empire loses.

That's why the Empire doesn't do it. They only use local forces of low-level recruits to fight Ulfric. And they were still winning against him. The Imperial forces holding the border against the Dominion could crush Ulfric's rebellion at any time, and they were barely the equals of the Dominion. Which means if the Dominion fought Ulfric Stormcloak, the Nords would get annihilated.

You're not paying attention. The Dunmer *can't* form an alliance with anyone because they're in such a weakend and displaced state. They're not helping anyone. Moot Point.

The Argonians have actively stated they aren't aligning with anyone, and have flat out attacked the Morrowind for their own ends. They're not going to align with Skyrim regardless as it holds no benefit to them. Moot point.

Not really. Either country can still be counted on for mercenaries that the Empire or Ulfric can hire. But they're more likely not to do business with Ulfric since he treats their people like shit. And why would the Bretons of High Rock help Ulfric when he's hard on the Forsworn?

Which is my exact point about Empire with Skyrim.

Er, no. Skyrim is still a somewhat-healthy country that is a good pool of recruits for the Empire's armies.

I'm not quoting most of this because it's all just plain wrong. You're pulling so much shit out of your ass on this one it isn't even funny, and you're way too focused on Ulfric. Ulfric doesn't matter. Empire losing Skyrim doesn't mean Ulfric wins Skyrim. Ulfric also cannot hold Skyrim.

Except again, you're proven wrong by the Imperial victory for Skyrim. Most of the Jarls fall in line, yet their trade links with the Empire still exist, meaning that the money coming in from trade with other Imperial provinces can help rebuild what Ulfric broke.

You keep conflating Jarl support with population support when you just admitted that most of them don't give a shit about the Empire. The Jarls support only lasts as long as it's beneficial to them.

Most of them don't give a shit about Ulfric either. And they're more than willing to accept Imperial pay and fight for the Empire. So long as the money's good. And yes, a good chunk of the populace are Imperial loyalists.

You keep acting like Cyrodill has endless coin. They don't. And even then, this logic goes out the window when you look at the real world. Or was I taught wrong and the US totally whupped Vietnam and Afghanistan's ass?

Cyrodiil's coin comes from trade, not from its own coffers. The trade links between Cyrodiil and other provinces help fund the Empire. That's why the pro-Imperial people in Skyrim walk around in fancy robes, while the pro-Stormcloak people walk around in rags. As Olfrid Battle-Born would tell you: "It's money, you laggard." The Empire doesn't have unlimited coin, but it produces enough money that those allied to it can recover.

The Vietnam War actually had a lot of Vietcong casualties. America "lost" because the nation got squeamish after the media tilted things to make it look like the Vietcong are winning, when in reality, it was somewhere between a stalemate and an American victory. As for Afghanistan, the locals were unreliable for the American occupation forces, which is the exact OPPOSITE of the Skyrim Civil War where the entire war for the Empire was being carried by local Nords fighting for the Emperor, and they were still winning.

Sheer amount of forces? From who? Morrowind is a husk that doesn't even like the Empire, High Rock is ignoring the war entirely. Do you actually pay attention to anything in the story? This Empire isn't much more than Cyrodil itself at this point.

From Skyrim itself. The local fucking Imperial Legions, recruited from Skyrim's populace, was on its way to winning the Skyrim Civil War before Alduin showed up, and with money coming in from trade, they can keep funding the war while Ulfric can't.

No they're not.

They haven't managed to capture a single hold that is against them. They managed to capture Ulfric, and instead of executing him on the spot they spend a couple days transporting him to Helgen.

You say Ulfric is an idiot? It seems like Tullius is just as much of an idiot.

Edit: Oh, I get it now.

Empire can kill Ulfric. I don't argue that, but they won't be able to continue to hold onto Skyrim. That's the point we are making here I think.

Yes they were. They had Ulfric in their grasp when the game starts. They have five out of nine holds, and more money than the Stormcloaks. And despite using only local recruits who are poorly armored and armed, they still had the upper hand.

Er, no. The Empire's hold on Skyrim is entirely done by nords who are fighting for it. The Empire isn't so much as holding on to Skyrim as it is just persuading enough of its warriors to fight for it, which it has no problem doing so. The actual Imperial army is down south in Cyrodiil guarding the border against the Dominion. Which means that holding Skyrim isn't a problem for them, otherwise, they'd send reinforcements from Cyrodiil to reinforce their forces in Skyrim.

Who the fuck is going to carry on the rebellion against the Empire once Ulfric dies? No one. The Empire will continue to pay Nords to fight for them, the Nords will take the money and wear imperial garb and patrol the streets, the trade links with other Imperial provinces will bring in enough money to repair the damage from the civil war, and Imperial Skyrim will just recover and continue to exist as a state within the Empire, with no one caring about overthrowing the Empire.

 

[RinguPingu745]

I've been on a streak recently of playing Oblivion and Skyrim again, so I decided to give Morrowind another chance. Now that I know how to make a proper character, it is a lot more fun! Rocking an Argonian who wields spears and haven't had any problems yet. Only mod I installed was to boost the starting speed a little bit.

Honestly I'm really jivving with not having quest markers and using the in game journal to figure out what to do and where to go. It's also fun just exploring a bit in the world, but I'm also trying to be cautious due to the wilderness being pretty unforgiving from what I've seen in countless videos about the game (which were the main reason I decided to try this game again).

All I can say is if you're having trouble with the dice roll aspect, just put Agility as your main attribute and pick weapons that work for the race you choose. You'll have less issues hitting things.

 

[armoreddinnerjacket]

I'm failing to see where a good chunk of Skyrim's pop are loyalists, or where they are all Talos worshippers but still working for the Empire. I'd argue that no one side has an overall majority, with certain areas having a stronger presence for one side or the other. Also a reminder that the American Revolution worked out with only a third of the population supporting the rebellion. The British Empire had the upper hand in both troops and funding while pulling volunteers from the local populace (sound familiar?).

As for everyone being closet Talos worshippers, that makes about as much sense as a bunch of Pagans working for a Roman Catholic kingdom while the Inquisition hunts them down. The Thalmor actively suppressing Talos worship is a big reason Ulfric had a leg to stand on in the first place, and I have seen no reason to believe that they were not rooting out Talos worshippers within the Imperial ranks as well.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

I'm failing to see where a good chunk of Skyrim's pop are loyalists, or where they are all Talos worshippers but still working for the Empire. I'd argue that no one side has an overall majority, with certain areas having a stronger presence for one side or the other. Also a reminder that the American Revolution worked out with only a third of the population supporting the rebellion. The British Empire had the upper hand in both troops and funding while pulling volunteers from the local populace (sound familiar?).

Except the Americans won with the support of France and Spain. In fact, without those outside empires, the Americans would have lost badly, as the British would just redirect forces from other parts of the empire to reinforce their American holdings. Once France and Spain got involved, it became a global war where the Spanish and the French were attacking Britain's holdings all over the Americas, and had the British not reached for the peace table, they would have lost more of their empire to the French and Spanish forces.

Also, ALMOST ALL the Imperial forces in Skyrim are Nords. And the Imperial army in Skyrim is large enough that the Stormcloaks need a demigod to take them down. That, combined with the fact that they have more funding due to ties with the Empire, makes it all the more harder to imagine the Stormcloaks winning on their own. If left alone, the war would have eventually been won by Tullius, since he's smart enough to catch Ulfric with his pants down, and Ulfric is hardly a good tactician, since his only notable military accomplishments aside from defeating the Forsworn is getting captured twice.

As for everyone being closet Talos worshippers, that makes about as much sense as a bunch of Pagans working for a Roman Catholic kingdom while the Inquisition hunts them down. The Thalmor actively suppressing Talos worship is a big reason Ulfric had a leg to stand on in the first place, and I have seen no reason to believe that they were not rooting out Talos worshippers within the Imperial ranks as well.

That actually happened. Most of the "Christians" in the latter days of Western Rome were pagans who were nominally Christians and worked with them because it provided more power and wealth. They weren't serious about belief, most of them still practiced pagan vices and only got baptized near death, but they still counted themselves as Christians so they can receive the material benefits of being members of the Church. Even as the Imperial government was cracking down on paganism, most of the people were barely even Christian, and many still practiced or held on to pagan beliefs until they were given their near-death baptisms.

Meanwhile, everyone from Balgruuf, to Rikke, to Elisif secretly worship Talos, and Elisif, the top Jarl for the Empire, even asks you to make an offering to Talos on behalf of her dead husband. Rikke asks Talos to be with Ulfric when the latter dies. Balgruuf still worships Talos and has a Talos priest openly preaching in the public square. All three of these characters are still loyal to both the Empire and Talos worship. It's really hard to buy the whole "Imperials are cracking down on Talos worship" when an Imperial Jarl is openly letting a Talos-loving priest preach in the public square.

The Empire doesn't really care about cracking down on Talos worship, and even they want the persecution to end. Of course, come the next great war, (which both Ondolemar and Tullius will tell you is coming) the Empire will throw away the White-Gold Concordat and go back to worshiping Talos anyways. Which means Ulfric got upset over fucking nothing. It was his actions in Markarth, trying to get open Talos worship, that invited Thalmor Justiciars into Skyrim in the first place, and the Thalmor were helping Ulfric from behind the scenes.

There are no Thalmor running around in Solitude or other Imperial holds, which means that the Thalmor aren't culling Imperial ranks for Talos worshipers. Whiterun even has a Talos priest openly preaching while the guards are staunchly pro-Imperial. The only Imperial place with a Thalmor presence is Markarth, due to Ulfric's past activities there.

 

[armoreddinnerjacket]

Could be mods, but I definitely remember Thalmor agents/patrols in and around Solitude, as well as in various places around Skyrim.

Gonna hard disagree on the Imperials in Skyrim being all Nords. Far as I can tell the majority are Imperials (and maybe I'm nitpicking and Imperials aren't an actual race), but again I've yet to see anything in the game indicating that the Imperial troops in Skyrim were locals.

I'd also argue that the presence of the Talos priest in Whiterun has less to do with Baalgruf being a Talos worshiper and more to do with Baalgruf leaning towards a more neutral position. He also doesn't take sides in the feuds between Imperial and Stormcloak families within the city, and he wouldn't have entered the war if Ulfric hadn't challenged him in the first place. He doesn't think highly of the Stormcloaks or Ulfric, but he's not actively working against Ulfric either (not to begin with at least).

 

[Neo-Holstien]

There isn't even really an Empire anymore.

Black Marsh: Seceded, are currently independent and look to remain that way since nobody can invade.

Elsweyr: Seceded. Eventually become Client states of the Aldmeri Dominion.

Hammerfell: Seceded after the great war. Has successfully repelled the Aldmeri Dominion although it has devastated the country.

High Rock: Admittedly the least is said about them. The most I've ever heard was that both Ulfric and Tullius asked High Rock for support and were completely ignored which shows where their priorities are.

Morrowind: Red Mountain went boom. Then Argonians invaded. Empire didn't do shit so a lot of Dunmer died halting the invasion. Dunmer resent the Empire, so much so that House Hlaalu has been replaced due to their Imperial ties.

Skyrim: Active rebellion taking place.

You really have to not be paying attention to think they can hold Skyrim.

during the third era the empire had no legions in highrock during the Illiac Crisis, A real threat in highrock would be principalities that defect for regional gain. I think Emil did not think tes 6 through, but I am sure that the over arching plot is the shifting balance of power between the states, in the Second Era the Summersets and Morrowind where the Great powers on Tamerial, with the other provinces having kingdoms that waxed and waned @LORD IMPERATOR have you played daggerfall you might enjoy it if you could learn to play

 

[X Pac Heat]

That's why the Empire doesn't do it. They only use local forces of low-level recruits to fight Ulfric. And they were still winning against him

Didn't take over a single hold. Didn't take over a single fort. All they did was capture Ulfric. That isn't winning, that's getting lucky.

Which means if the Dominion fought Ulfric Stormcloak, the Nords would get annihilated.

Hammerfell says hello again.

But they're more likely not to do business with Ulfric since he treats their people like shit.

The Empire completely abandoning Morrowind to the Argonians is treating the Dunmer like shit. Ulfric not giving a shit about Dunmer living in his city is way lower on the treating a whole race/country like shit meter. Dunmer are not going to support either, but to think they'd support the Empire is fucking retarded.

Argonians have no reason to support either, so they won't.

Mercenaries work for coin. They're going to go with who pays the most not who treated their people the best. Either way, moot point as both sides refuse to hire mercenaries.

Pay attention to lore and dialogue in game, please.

Er, no. Skyrim is still a somewhat-healthy country that is a good pool of recruits for the Empire's armies.

How is it healthy with a civil war and a dragon crisis going on? How is it a good pool for recruits when "half" the populace hate the Empire?

Except again, you're proven wrong by the Imperial victory for Skyrim. Most of the Jarls fall in line, yet their trade links with the Empire still exist, meaning that the money coming in from trade with other Imperial provinces can help rebuild what Ulfric broke.

None of the Jarls fall in line. They're all actively replaced. Did you not pay attention?

Imperial aligned Jarls are rich because of trade with the Dominion. That was kind of the background story going on throughout Solitude. Balgruuf even mentions something about the Jarls falling in line after the war thanks to chests of gold.

Most of them don't give a shit about Ulfric either. And they're more than willing to accept Imperial pay and fight for the Empire. So long as the money's good. And yes, a good chunk of the populace are Imperial loyalists.

Most of who don't give a shit about Ulfric? His followers or the Jarls? Some Jarls don't give a shit about Ulfric, but they ALL give a shit about being Independent of the Empire. The actual soldiers and citizens are shown to very much give a shit about Ulfric though. That's kind of his whole thing, having this cult of personality. Have you just never played the Stormcloak side or do you really not pay any attention?

Cyrodiil's coin comes from trade, not from its own coffers. The trade links between Cyrodiil and other provinces help fund the Empire. That's why the pro-Imperial people in Skyrim walk around in fancy robes, while the pro-Stormcloak people walk around in rags. As Olfrid Battle-Born would tell you: "It's money, you laggard." The Empire doesn't have unlimited coin, but it produces enough money that those allied to it can recover.

Trade with who, exactly? High Rock is pretty isolated. Morrowind and Hammerfell are in ruins and actively despise the Empire. Elswyer, Valenwood and Summerset isles are Dominion. Black Marsh is independent and I'm not even sure what they would produce in trade anyways.

Did you really miss the whole thing where Solitudes rich and powerful are all in bed with the Thalmor? How Balgruuf said the Jarls got in line after the war because they were given chests of gold by the Dominion?

The Empire isn't portrayed as having the trade and coin you seem to think it has.

Yes they were. They had Ulfric in their grasp when the game starts. They have five out of nine holds, and more money than the Stormcloaks. And despite using only local recruits who are poorly armored and armed, they still had the upper hand.

Er, no. The Empire's hold on Skyrim is entirely done by nords who are fighting for it. The Empire isn't so much as holding on to Skyrim as it is just persuading enough of its warriors to fight for it, which it has no problem doing so. The actual Imperial army is down south in Cyrodiil guarding the border against the Dominion. Which means that holding Skyrim isn't a problem for them, otherwise, they'd send reinforcements from Cyrodiil to reinforce their forces in Skyrim.

Who the fuck is going to carry on the rebellion against the Empire once Ulfric dies? No one. The Empire will continue to pay Nords to fight for them, the Nords will take the money and wear imperial garb and patrol the streets, the trade links with other Imperial provinces will bring in enough money to repair the damage from the civil war, and Imperial Skyrim will just recover and continue to exist as a state within the Empire, with no one caring about overthrowing the Empire.

No they weren't. They had Ulfric in their grasp and failed to do anything with him. They have FOUR holds, which they did not take but started the war with. Their money and trade situation is nowhere near what you present it as. The game flat out says they are at a stalemate at the start. If they were winning the war, Ulfric escaping would have been a non factor and they would have went on to take over the holds aligned with him.

They flat out say that it is a problem Tullius constantly complains that they are at a severe disadvantage without the Legions in Cyrodil.

Who the fuck is going to carry on the rebellion when Ulfric dies? How about his army of rabid followers? How about the displaced Jarls?

You're point about trade has been dismantled already so I'm not even going to continue this argument.

I honestly can't understand how someone can play Skyrim and miss the entire underlying story of how the Empire is crumbling.

Holy shit, I just realized we didn't even get into how the Dark Brotherhood storyline results in the actual Emperor being assassinated on top of showing how much political strife is taking place within the Empire itself since his own people ordered the assassination. You expect this Empire to not only hold onto Skyrim but also rebuild it in the wake of those events?

Maybe if whoever takes over from the Emperor ends up being the next coming of Talos. But as presented in the game, the Empire is a husk barely holding Cyrodil together, let alone Skyrim.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Could be mods, but I definitely remember Thalmor agents/patrols in and around Solitude, as well as in various places around Skyrim.

Nope. I go around Solitude all the time, and the Thalmor do no show up near the city. They may pass the road close to it, but only to make their way to the Aldmeri embassy.

Gonna hard disagree on the Imperials in Skyrim being all Nords. Far as I can tell the majority are Imperials (and maybe I'm nitpicking and Imperials aren't an actual race), but again I've yet to see anything in the game indicating that the Imperial troops in Skyrim were locals.

Most of the Imperial troops have similar dialogue as the Skyrim guards, and some even look Nordic. That, and they make it clear to you that the war in Skyrim is a sideshow-Tullius even tells you that the majority of Imperial forces are down south. So yes, these guys are local recruits. They'd have become hold guards if the Imperials didn't hire them.

I'd also argue that the presence of the Talos priest in Whiterun has less to do with Baalgruf being a Talos worshiper and more to do with Baalgruf leaning towards a more neutral position. He also doesn't take sides in the feuds between Imperial and Stormcloak families within the city, and he wouldn't have entered the war if Ulfric hadn't challenged him in the first place. He doesn't think highly of the Stormcloaks or Ulfric, but he's not actively working against Ulfric either (not to begin with at least).

Balgruuf isn't fully neutral, though. The guards in his hold treat you positively if you wear Imperial gear, and they insult you if you wear Stormcloak armor. And yes, when the chips fall, he ends up on the Imperial side and even makes a big speech about wiping out the Stormcloaks.

And yet that big statue to Talos still stands after the battle.

Didn't take over a single hold. Didn't take over a single fort. All they did was capture Ulfric. That isn't winning, that's getting lucky.

That is winning. That's the equivalent of capturing the enemy king in chess. The whole rebellion lies on Ulfric. Without his leadership, the rebels would be easy pickings.

Hammerfell says hello again.

Hammerfell-which the Thalmor have already devastated and rendered worthless during the war. Not the same as Skyrim, which still has lots of farmland, trade routes that make money (East Empire Company) and lots of people to recruit for the army, as both Ulfric and Tullius would know.

The Empire completely abandoning Morrowind to the Argonians is treating the Dunmer like shit. Ulfric not giving a shit about Dunmer living in his city is way lower on the treating a whole race/country like shit meter. Dunmer are not going to support either, but to think they'd support the Empire is fucking retarded.

Dunmer travelers in-game are making their way to Solitude to support the Empire. Which sinks your argument quite nicely. And who's to say you can't pay Dunmer mercs to fight for your side?

Argonians have no reason to support either, so they won't.

You can still hire Argonians as mercenaries against the Thalmor. But of course, that only counts for the Empire, since they're the ones with money.

Mercenaries work for coin. They're going to go with who pays the most not who treated their people the best. Either way, moot point as both sides refuse to hire mercenaries.

Not so sure about that. Most of the Imperial Legion in Skyrim are locals who agreed to fight for pay. What's to stop them from hiring more outsiders to put on their gear and fight for them?

Pay attention to lore and dialogue in game, please.

The lore and dialogue in the game outright tells you that the Empire isn't even treating the Ulfric problem all that seriously. Tullius even tells you that the Empire back in Cyrodiil doesn't give two squirts of shit about the civil war. The Empire is quite literally holding onto Skyrim with its pinky finger-and they still almost won had it not been for Alduin.

How is it healthy with a civil war and a dragon crisis going on? How is it a good pool for recruits when "half" the populace hate the Empire?

Half? More like a third or a quarter. The average Nord doesn't give two shits about the war. They do care about money though, and the Empire has plenty of money.

None of the Jarls fall in line. They're all actively replaced. Did you not pay attention?

The Jarls on the Empire side fall in line, while the Jarls who rebelled against the Empire fall in line and leave.

Imperial aligned Jarls are rich because of trade with the Dominion. That was kind of the background story going on throughout Solitude. Balgruuf even mentions something about the Jarls falling in line after the war thanks to chests of gold.

The Dominion AND the rest of the Empire. And again, that line shows that the Empire has the money to fund a long war.

Most of who don't give a shit about Ulfric? His followers or the Jarls? Some Jarls don't give a shit about Ulfric, but they ALL give a shit about being Independent of the Empire. The actual soldiers and citizens are shown to very much give a shit about Ulfric though. That's kind of his whole thing, having this cult of personality. Have you just never played the Stormcloak side or do you really not pay any attention?

No they don't. Less than half the Jarls care about being independent from the Empire, 5 out of 9 are more than OK with the Empire running around. The Stormcloaks care about Ulfric, but they don't even have half the country. In fact, outside of Riften, the rest of Stormcloak territory is mostly barren snowlands with little population, while the more populous settlements like Markarth, Whiterun, and Solitude stand with the Empire. 5 out of 9 holds have soldiers/citizens who DESPISE the Stormcloaks. That's not a cult of personality to me, that's a minority, if anything, since they can't even make the coveted 50% line, and outside of Riften, most of their holds are snow-ridden shitholes.

Trade with who, exactly? High Rock is pretty isolated. Morrowind and Hammerfell are in ruins and actively despise the Empire. Elswyer, Valenwood and Summerset isles are Dominion. Black Marsh is independent and I'm not even sure what they would produce in trade anyways.

Cyrodiil? High Rock is also a part of the Empire and is connected to western Skyrim, which the Empire owns.

Did you really miss the whole thing where Solitudes rich and powerful are all in bed with the Thalmor? How Balgruuf said the Jarls got in line after the war because they were given chests of gold by the Dominion?

The gold didn't come from the Dominion. It came from the Empire, and most of the rich fops in Solitude are in bed with the Emperor, not the Dominion. Especially since both the Dominion and the Empire expect war soon, so it makes no sense for them to be in bed with each other.

Remember seeing Elenwen during the intro? She wasn't there to help the Imperials smother the Stormcloaks. She was there to try and get Ulfric so she can "release" him and have him cause more trouble for the Empire.

The Empire isn't portrayed as having the trade and coin you seem to think it has.

It kind of does. The East Empire company is portrayed as wealthy, and Imperial lackeys like the Battle-Born clan have all the money in the world. The infamously wealthy Maven Black-Briar even takes over Riften for the Empire when the Stormcloaks get driven out of there.

No they weren't. They had Ulfric in their grasp and failed to do anything with him. They have FOUR holds, which they did not take but started the war with. Their money and trade situation is nowhere near what you present it as. The game flat out says they are at a stalemate at the start. If they were winning the war, Ulfric escaping would have been a non factor and they would have went on to take over the holds aligned with him.

They were about to take Ulfric's head before Alduin showed up. Four holds declared their allegiance to the Empire. Five, since Whiterun is still loyal despite violating the White-Gold Concordat. And most of their army are local Nords paid to fight for the Empire, not Imperial troops from down south in Cyrodiil.

Ulfric quite literally needed the help of a god to escape the Empire's clutches. If Alduin didn't show, he'd be dead, and the war would be over.

They flat out say that it is a problem Tullius constantly complains that they are at a severe disadvantage without the Legions in Cyrodil.

No they aren't. During the peace treaty quest, you can even make the argument to Tullius that he should negotiate while in a position of strength-because his forces have the upper hand in Skyrim despite only relying on local recruits and not getting much in terms of reinforcements.

Who the fuck is going to carry on the rebellion when Ulfric dies? How about his army of rabid followers? How about the displaced Jarls?

The displaced Jarls are in house arrest at Windhelm, which is held by an Imperial puppet. Ulfric's rabid army of followers have been shattered and slaughtered over the course of several battles. The only thing left from that rabble are isolated camps that won't stand long if they got discovered.

You're point about trade has been dismantled already so I'm not even going to continue this argument.

My point about trade makes sense, unlike your arguments.

I honestly can't understand how someone can play Skyrim and miss the entire underlying story of how the Empire is crumbling.

The Empire is crumbling, but it can recover. That, and even at its weakened state, it is still superior to the Stormcloaks, and capable of being a threat to the Dominion.

Holy shit, I just realized we didn't even get into how the Dark Brotherhood storyline results in the actual Emperor being assassinated on top of showing how much political strife is taking place within the Empire itself since his own people ordered the assassination. You expect this Empire to not only hold onto Skyrim but also rebuild it in the wake of those events?

Actually, killing the Emperor is a plus for the Empire. Your "client" even says as much-he says that killing the Emperor actually "saved" the Empire. If anything, getting rid of Titus Mede II would make the Empire run smoother. Especially since there's underlying proof that Titus ordered the assassination of himself through third parties and that he allowed himself to die so that a new leader can bring the Empire forward.

Maybe if whoever takes over from the Emperor ends up being the next coming of Talos. But as presented in the game, the Empire is a husk barely holding Cyrodil together, let alone Skyrim.

And yet it is still capable of recovering, and it still has a lot of money and resources at its disposal. The fact that it's practically holding Skyrim by its pinky finger (using only local recruits) and still has the upper hand in the civil war goes to show that. All the Imperial lackeys you see, from Elisif's court, to the Battle-Borns, and even the Black-Briars, do not lack for coin or power. And again, if it wasn't for a literal Deus Ex Machina, the Stormcloaks would have already lost.

 

[Friendly Primarina]

Nope. I go around Solitude all the time, and the Thalmor do no show up near the city. They may pass the road close to it, but only to make their way to the Aldmeri embassy.


Most of the Imperial troops have similar dialogue as the Skyrim guards, and some even look Nordic. That, and they make it clear to you that the war in Skyrim is a sideshow-Tullius even tells you that the majority of Imperial forces are down south. So yes, these guys are local recruits. They'd have become hold guards if the Imperials didn't hire them.


Balgruuf isn't fully neutral, though. The guards in his hold treat you positively if you wear Imperial gear, and they insult you if you wear Stormcloak armor. And yes, when the chips fall, he ends up on the Imperial side and even makes a big speech about wiping out the Stormcloaks.

And yet that big statue to Talos still stands after the battle.


That is winning. That's the equivalent of capturing the enemy king in chess. The whole rebellion lies on Ulfric. Without his leadership, the rebels would be easy pickings.


Hammerfell-which the Thalmor have already devastated and rendered worthless during the war. Not the same as Skyrim, which still has lots of farmland, trade routes that make money (East Empire Company) and lots of people to recruit for the army, as both Ulfric and Tullius would know.


Dunmer travelers in-game are making their way to Solitude to support the Empire. Which sinks your argument quite nicely. And who's to say you can't pay Dunmer mercs to fight for your side?


You can still hire Argonians as mercenaries against the Thalmor. But of course, that only counts for the Empire, since they're the ones with money.


Not so sure about that. Most of the Imperial Legion in Skyrim are locals who agreed to fight for pay. What's to stop them from hiring more outsiders to put on their gear and fight for them?


The lore and dialogue in the game outright tells you that the Empire isn't even treating the Ulfric problem all that seriously. Tullius even tells you that the Empire back in Cyrodiil doesn't give two squirts of shit about the civil war. The Empire is quite literally holding onto Skyrim with its pinky finger-and they still almost won had it not been for Alduin.


Half? More like a third or a quarter. The average Nord doesn't give two shits about the war. They do care about money though, and the Empire has plenty of money.


The Jarls on the Empire side fall in line, while the Jarls who rebelled against the Empire fall in line and leave.


The Dominion AND the rest of the Empire. And again, that line shows that the Empire has the money to fund a long war.


No they don't. Less than half the Jarls care about being independent from the Empire, 5 out of 9 are more than OK with the Empire running around. The Stormcloaks care about Ulfric, but they don't even have half the country. In fact, outside of Riften, the rest of Stormcloak territory is mostly barren snowlands with little population, while the more populous settlements like Markarth, Whiterun, and Solitude stand with the Empire. 5 out of 9 holds have soldiers/citizens who DESPISE the Stormcloaks. That's not a cult of personality to me, that's a minority, if anything, since they can't even make the coveted 50% line, and outside of Riften, most of their holds are snow-ridden shitholes.


Cyrodiil? High Rock is also a part of the Empire and is connected to western Skyrim, which the Empire owns.


The gold didn't come from the Dominion. It came from the Empire, and most of the rich fops in Solitude are in bed with the Emperor, not the Dominion. Especially since both the Dominion and the Empire expect war soon, so it makes no sense for them to be in bed with each other.

Remember seeing Elenwen during the intro? She wasn't there to help the Imperials smother the Stormcloaks. She was there to try and get Ulfric so she can "release" him and have him cause more trouble for the Empire.


It kind of does. The East Empire company is portrayed as wealthy, and Imperial lackeys like the Battle-Born clan have all the money in the world. The infamously wealthy Maven Black-Briar even takes over Riften for the Empire when the Stormcloaks get driven out of there.


They were about to take Ulfric's head before Alduin showed up. Four holds declared their allegiance to the Empire. Five, since Whiterun is still loyal despite violating the White-Gold Concordat. And most of their army are local Nords paid to fight for the Empire, not Imperial troops from down south in Cyrodiil.

Ulfric quite literally needed the help of a god to escape the Empire's clutches. If Alduin didn't show, he'd be dead, and the war would be over.


No they aren't. During the peace treaty quest, you can even make the argument to Tullius that he should negotiate while in a position of strength-because his forces have the upper hand in Skyrim despite only relying on local recruits and not getting much in terms of reinforcements.


The displaced Jarls are in house arrest at Windhelm, which is held by an Imperial puppet. Ulfric's rabid army of followers have been shattered and slaughtered over the course of several battles. The only thing left from that rabble are isolated camps that won't stand long if they got discovered.


My point about trade makes sense, unlike your arguments.


The Empire is crumbling, but it can recover. That, and even at its weakened state, it is still superior to the Stormcloaks, and capable of being a threat to the Dominion.


Actually, killing the Emperor is a plus for the Empire. Your "client" even says as much-he says that killing the Emperor actually "saved" the Empire. If anything, getting rid of Titus Mede II would make the Empire run smoother. Especially since there's underlying proof that Titus ordered the assassination of himself through third parties and that he allowed himself to die so that a new leader can bring the Empire forward.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=tvDCtFZn40g

And yet it is still capable of recovering, and it still has a lot of money and resources at its disposal. The fact that it's practically holding Skyrim by its pinky finger (using only local recruits) and still has the upper hand in the civil war goes to show that. All the Imperial lackeys you see, from Elisif's court, to the Battle-Borns, and even the Black-Briars, do not lack for coin or power. And again, if it wasn't for a literal Deus Ex Machina, the Stormcloaks would have already lost.

 

[Milwaukee Macho Man]

Especially since there's underlying proof that Titus ordered the assassination of himself through third parties and that he allowed himself to die so that a new leader can bring the Empire forward.

lmfao stop getting your info from youtubers, dude.

Honestly, I don't get why you're so hellbent on the Mede Empire being able to recover. The whole point of the "empire" crumbling, at least to me, was to make a finer point of what an accomplishment it was for Tiber Septim to unite everyone. Also the Empire falling apart has been foreshadowed since at least Morrowind, along with "something new" coming. When Wulf mentioned something "young and new" I don't think he meant just a Great Value version of the Septim Empire.

 

[X Pac Heat]

My point about trade makes sense, unlike your arguments.

No, it doesn't. You claim the Empire can trade with Cyrodiil and High Rock to fund the war. That's the entirety of the functioning Empire. You're basically saying Cyrodiil ("The Empire") can trade with itself and the one other province who's trade routes are blocked by both Hammerfell and Skyrim. A province that has completely ignored requests of aid from Tullius, and by extension, "The Empire". You seem to really not be grasping the subtext of that action.

You continue to talk about how the Empire can just keep funding a war with Skyrim as if that doesn't actively take away from their preparations for another Great War with the Dominion, or does that not also require funding?

That is why I say at some point the cost of keeping up a war with Skyrim will no longer be worth it, just like with the Dominion and Hammerfell. For all your talk about how isolated Ulfric is, you completely miss how isolated Cyrodiil ("The Empire") is as well.

You claim that the Jarls are not in bed with the Thalmor, even though pretty much every interaction with Solitude nobility (especially within the quest Diplomatic Immunity where they are all partying at the THALMOR EMBASSY) says otherwise.

This will be my last post on the subject with you, as you have made it clear that you not only pay little attention to the actual game, but seemingly no attention to actual arguments and I am tired of repeating myself to try and get you to understand. I would suggest getting your information from the actual sources instead of Youtubers in the future.

 

[Psyduck]

What an entertaining read has this thread become, makes me wanna pick up Skyrim again, maybe the older titles too

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

lmfao stop getting your info from youtubers, dude.

Honestly, I don't get why you're so hellbent on the Mede Empire being able to recover. The whole point of the "empire" crumbling, at least to me, was to make a finer point of what an accomplishment it was for Tiber Septim to unite everyone. Also the Empire falling apart has been foreshadowed since at least Morrowind, along with "something new" coming. When Wulf mentioned something "young and new" I don't think he meant just a Great Value version of the Septim Empire.

This particular Youtuber made some great points.

The Medes are done for, but the Empire itself isn't anywhere near dying. It's in a rut, like America during the Great Depression, but many people during those days thought that America and capitalism were done, yet they still recovered. Just because they're in a rut doesn't mean they're boned. The USA was in a rut during the Great Depression, but one world war and one baby boom later, and they're back at the top. Point is, the Empire was holding onto one half of Skyrim while barely even trying, and they're still capable of throwing money around. The only competitor for them in that arena is the Dominion, and it's not like the Dominion is in the clear, either. They barely won the last war, and their numbers, thanks to their asinine purity standards, are not the same as the Empire's. And I highly doubt the Khajiit or the Wood Elves have as much numbers as the Cyrodiil humans or the pro-Imperial Nords have. Nor would they be willing to die on a hill for some elves who think they're shit anyways.

If anything, Titus Mede II was kind of a pussy for accepting the White-Gold Concordat, which means offing him improved the Empire's chances, as your "client" from the Dark Brotherhood questline claims.

No, it doesn't. You claim the Empire can trade with Cyrodiil and High Rock to fund the war. That's the entirety of the functioning Empire. You're basically saying Cyrodiil ("The Empire") can trade with itself and the one other province who's trade routes are blocked by both Hammerfell and Skyrim. A province that has completely ignored requests of aid from Tullius, and by extension, "The Empire". You seem to really not be grasping the subtext of that action.

Don't forget the Imperial half of Skyrim, which includes A) Solitude, B) Markarth, and C) Whiterun, which are the more profitable holds in Skyrim. And again, the proof presents itself: people like the Battle-Borns, Elisif's Court, and the Black-Briars, people with IMPERIAL connections, are splashing cash everywhere. That does not look like a crumbling Empire to me. If that were the case, they'd be selling their furniture to fund their war with the Stormcloaks. Instead, all the rich assholes in Skyrim have a direct line to Cyrodiil, except for the Silver-Bloods whose wealth comes from a silver mine.

You continue to talk about how the Empire can just keep funding a war with Skyrim as if that doesn't actively take away from their preparations for another Great War with the Dominion, or does that not also require funding?

That's the point. The Empire will eventually win the war with the Stormcloaks due to their superior resources, which means they'll be able to fix things and get things ready for round 2 with the Dominion. And as any Altmer expert can tell you, the Altmer do not have higher numbers for a prolonged war, since they kill over half their children for not living up to their perfectionist standards.

That is why I say at some point the cost of keeping up a war with Skyrim will no longer be worth it, just like with the Dominion and Hammerfell. For all your talk about how isolated Ulfric is, you completely miss how isolated Cyrodiil ("The Empire") is as well.

Not according to what we see in the Skyrim game, where we see the East Empire company running around, and Balgruuf openly siding with the Empire BECAUSE of its trade routes bringing in gold. When Jarls pick sides because the Empire can bring in the cash, then it's quite obvious that they have the cash. Shit, when the White-Gold Concordat was signed, the Jarls were PAID by the Empire to shut up and like it.

You claim that the Jarls are not in bed with the Thalmor, even though pretty much every interaction with Solitude nobility (especially within the quest Diplomatic Immunity where they are all partying at the THALMOR EMBASSY) says otherwise.

You really have no idea what diplomatic functions mean, do you? They're there to save face, not to actually get in bed with Elenwen. The Imperial Jarls are there, but they don't like the Thalmor. Elisif in her requests will later ask you to make an offering to Talos, which is ILLEGAL in the eyes of the Thalmor, while Balgruuf, if he is in the Thalmor party, will cause some trouble on your behalf because he hates the Thalmor. Shit, if General Tullius is there, even he voices his hatred for the Thalmor and even somewhat sympathizes with Ulfric when it comes to hating the Altmer.

This will be my last post on the subject with you, as you have made it clear that you not only pay little attention to the actual game, but seemingly no attention to actual arguments and I am tired of repeating myself to try and get you to understand. I would suggest getting your information from the actual sources instead of Youtubers in the future.

You're the one not paying attention to the fucking game. The Emperor puts up little fight and even expects you to kill him in the Dark Brotherhood questline. All the Imperial allies in Skyrim are splashing cash around like it's nothing. And three top figures in the Empire (Rikke, Elisif, and Balgruuf) are Talos-worshipers, so they're obviously not pro-Thalmor. Both Tullius AND Ondolemar make it clear that the peace between the Empire and the Dominion is temporary, and round 2 of the Great War is coming. Tullius tells you as much after you kill Ulfric for him, and Ondolemar openly tells you that there will be another war when you talk to him in Markarth or on the Thalmor Embassy.

 

[armoreddinnerjacket]

So where is all the money coming from, if Cyrodill and High Rock are the only trade options?

 

[Milwaukee Macho Man]

The Medes are done for, but the Empire itself isn't anywhere near dying.

How is it not? It has two properly functioning provinces, one of which is actively ignoring requests for assistance.

Like, sure, a Tiber Septim COULD show up and magically fix the Empire, but that'd be boring as fuck to happen between games. Not to mention lame as fuck for just being a repeat of the past.

So where is all the money coming from, if Cyrodill and High Rock are the only trade options?

This is what I don't get about his trade argument. Even if you ignore that High Rock ignore Tullius asking for assistance, they're blocked off from the heartland. There is little trade to be made except with the Dominion, but then he wants to act like the Dominion isn't the one keeping the Imperials in cash...

Lord Imperator seems like he just ignores a lot of shit and makes up other shit to fit his argument, which actually I see Imperial fanboys do a lot so I guess it shouldn't surprise me. Like he claims one minute that Balgruuf sided with Empire because Ulfric attacked him showing that Ulfric can't maintain allies, then he claims he did it for the money which I don't recall ever being stated in the game? And the idea that the Empire wins due to superior resources even though they haven't used those resources to repair relations with Morrowind even during good times. And now they're cut off from all their own provinces, so their only way to trade is with the Dominion but yet the Dominion are not the ones floating cash everywhere?

Also want to point out that there are actual dialogues between Balgruuf and Proventus where he flat out states they're practically out of money and barely have enough to pay the guards, and Whiterun is a trade center for fucks sake.

I just don't get where he gets this idea from that the Empire has unlimited resources to fight a forever war with Skyrim. And how the Jarls having money somehow means the people will just be happy and shut up while being religiously persecuted and barely scraping by.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

How is it not? It has two properly functioning provinces, one of which is actively ignoring requests for assistance.

Like, sure, a Tiber Septim COULD show up and magically fix the Empire, but that'd be boring as fuck to happen between games. Not to mention lame as fuck for just being a repeat of the past.

Because it still has capital and an army, and it still can hold back the Dominion, which by all accounts is a superpower. And again, if you pay attention in Skyrim, damn near every party related to the Empire, from Elisif's court, to the Battle-Borns, and even the Black-Briars, they have cash to spare and are preparing for the Great War: Round 2 with the Dominion.

Again, the Empire in Skyrim is more akin to America during the Great Depression. In fact, it's even healthier than America during the Great Depression considering how every pro-Imperial patsy is splashing cash like there's no tomorrow while Stormcloak allies outside of the Silver-Bloods have to be content with stale bread and beggars' rags.

So where is all the money coming from, if Cyrodill and High Rock are the only trade options?

Beats me. Maybe Cyrodiil and High Rock bring in so much cash from trade. That, and the Empire also owns Markarth, Solitude, and to an extent, Whiterun, and those are some of the wealthiest holds in Skyrim.

This is what I don't get about his trade argument. Even if you ignore that High Rock ignore Tullius asking for assistance, they're blocked off from the heartland. There is little trade to be made except with the Dominion, but then he wants to act like the Dominion isn't the one keeping the Imperials in cash...

Maybe because the Dominion is spending its cash preparing for the Second Great War? And again, where the hell do you get the idea that the Dominion is the source of the Empire's wealth? Especially when all the wealthy holds in Skyrim are pro-Imperial? And Cyrodiil was portrayed previously as a wealthy province?

The "trade argument" is something characters make in-game. Ask Balgruuf why he joins the Empire, and this is what he'll say:

"Mutual advantage! Any fool can see that. For centuries, we have benefited from the Empire's protection, and prosperous trade with the south. In exchange, the people of Cyrodiil sleep peacefully, knowing their northern border is guarded by the fiercest warriors in all Tamriel."

PROSPEROUS TRADE WITH THE SOUTH. LOL.

There's even this bit with Olfrid Battle-Born, who is the chief Imperial supporter in Whiterun:

Tell me about Clan Battle-Born. "Battle-Born is a name out of legend, sung in the songs of old and heard in deeds of valor for a hundred generations. "For Clan Battle-Born!" they cry in the mead halls. "First into the fray and last to quit their ale!" We've got honor. Wealth and titles, too. Aye, and buxom women to warm your bed on a cold Skyrim night. Now if that don't answer your question, then no words will."

What about Clan Gray-Mane? "Uncivilised, pelt-wearing axe-draggers. It's a wonder they don't still live in a cave like those ancestors they keep boasting about. It's true that Vignar Gray-Mane and his lot are one of Whiterun's oldest and, depending on who you ask, most respected clans. I don't dispute that. But it's one thing to take pride in your lineage, and another to cling blindly to the past. What they call honor and tradition, I call ignorance."

Why the fued with Clan Gray-Mane? "Money, you laggard! What else? It always comes down to coin. The Gray-Manes have deep roots in Whiterun, but so do we. Difference is, we're rich, and Vignar hates it. Oh, and they hate it, too. All their big talk of pride and honor, and what have they got to show for it? Beggar's rags and stale bread. We've got the same pride, the same honor, and we've got wealth. No wonder they envy us."

The Jarl of Whiterun sides with the Empire because trade with the Empire down south brings in lots of money, and the Empire's top patsies in Whiterun are splashing cash like there's no tomorrow as compared to their pro-Stormcloak counterparts who have naught but beggar's rags and stale bread.

Goddamn you people are so stubborn to reject the truth that EVEN THE CHARACTERS FROM THE GAME ARE BRINGING UP.

 

[Milwaukee Macho Man]

Cyrodiils previous portrayl was under the Septim Empire you retard.

Balgruufs is talking about why the Empire was good in the past, not in the present.

Holy shit, you really don't pay attention.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Cyrodiils previous portrayl was under the Septim Empire you retard.

Balgruufs is talking about why the Empire was good in the past, not in the present.

Holy shit, you really don't pay attention.

Balgruuf was talking about the Empire NOW. AS IT WAS IN THE EVENTS OF ELDER SCROLLS V. AS TO WHY HE JOINS THE EMPIRE DURING THE SKYRIM CIVIL WAR.

The Empire sure as hell wouldn't be able to pay the Jarls to shut up about the White-Gold Concordat if they were poor. Not to mention that they're preparing to go to war with the Dominion again, so it makes little sense for the Dominion to bribe Imperials since the Imperials will be reaching for their throats in a matter of years, and the Dominion would likely spend most of its cash to ensure they can finish the Empire once round 2 of the Great War starts.

You're the one who isn't paying any attention. The Jarl of Whiterun sides with the Empire from the South because it brings in lots of money through trade, and we even have all the rich fops in Whiterun and Solitude being loyal Imperials. The only Stormcloaks who can equal them in wealth are the Silver-Bloods, who make their money from slave labor and a silver mine. Quite literally, the only way Stormcloak-lovers could get close to the level of wealth the Empire's patsies have is to enslave a bunch of natives and force them and some folks thrown in jail via kangaroo court to dig up a mine full of silver.

This whole "the Empire is falling apart" talk doesn't make any sense when one looks at the facts. The Imperials and their allies are still splashing cash all over the place, they're holding onto half of Skyrim while barely even trying, most of their army is down south preparing for the second war with the Dominion, and the game even starts with Ulfric about to lose his head. Had a literal Deus Ex Machina not appeared, the war would have been over. Even Tullius tells you that this civil war in Skyrim is a farce in the eyes of the people down south who are preparing for another war with the Dominion. All this talk of the Empire falling apart is about as stupid as all the people during the Great Depression saying that America and capitalism were done for, only to be proven dead wrong after WW2 and the 1950s economic boom.

Not to mention that the Dominion is in a similar situation. Just like the Empire, they have two provinces to themselves, and one that is wracked by rebellion. Notice how Malborn turned against the Dominion because of what they did to his family? It shows that the Wood Elves are not 100% in with the Dominion and there is resistance in Valenwood, just as Skyrim has some people resisting the Empire. The only other provinces in the Dominion are Elsweyr and the Summerset Isles. Both sides have two provinces to themselves, and one that is experiencing some resistance to their rule.

Here's the difference: the provinces owned by the Empire, Cyrodiil and High Rock, can provide a healthy amount of soldiers for the next war. Alinor and Elsweyr can't. The Summerset Isles under the Thalmor kill over half of their infants to preserve racial purity, while the cat-people and the Wood Elves are nowhere near as numerous or as militarized as the humans in High Rock, Cyrodiil, or the Imperial half of Skyrim. Eventually, war fatigue and logistics will favor the Empire in the later wars, since the Empire has a healthy amount of troops, while every Thalmor soldier or mage slain isn't as easily replaced, since the Altmer kill over half their potential soldiers and workers due to their asinine racial purity standards.

So it's more likely that the Second Great War, and perhaps even the third, would be lopsided victories for the Empire, especially if the truth comes out that the Thalmor didn't stop the Oblivion Crisis and they bamboozled the Khajiit with the disappearance of the moons. Such revelations would cause MASSIVE rebellions on Dominion territory that would make the Stormcloak Rebellion seem like a walk in the park by comparison.

 

[Some Badger]

Damn, you stop lurking a thread for three months and it immediately goes to shit. Time to derail it by asking for mod recommendations!

I haven't actually played Skyrim since late 2017, but like a lot of people I view Elder Scrolls titles as the kind of games you play obsessively for a couple months, put down for a couple months more (or in my case, nearly four years), then return to it when the newest title you've been waiting for all year inevitably disappoints you.

The Forgotten City has probably got to be my favorite mod to date. It's fully voice acted, has a unique premise and an interesting mystery with multiple endings. It's honestly what I wish more quests in Skyrim where like (no, I'm not counting being able to betray the Dawnguard at the start of the questline. That shit happens a single quest in and could easily have been pursued of the player's own volition).

 

[DMX DA GOAT]

Balgruuf was talking about the Empire NOW. AS IT WAS IN THE EVENTS OF ELDER SCROLLS V. AS TO WHY HE JOINS THE EMPIRE DURING THE SKYRIM CIVIL WAR.

Damn i barely pay attention and even i remember this quote was from a dialogue where Balgruuf explains why anyone might pick Imperial. He also goes on to say Ulrich has a point too and explains it.

This dumbass MATI. Empire is real faggot no need to stan so hard lmfao just get it out of your system and tell us Ulfric is a racist