The End of Forgivness - Your Death Will Not Save You

Secret Asshole

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So, I've been thinking a lot recently about forgiveness and our society. And what it really means.

And I've come to the conclusion: Forgiveness is dead.

In the West, progressive ideology, cancel culture and #MeToo have destroyed it. Its like this oozing cancer. These were the people shouting about Americans being imperialistic. Only instead of McDonalds in the Middle East, its their political values. Everywhere. In everything. This seething, boiling cancer, consuming creativity, art, people. Sterilizing, demonizing them. Waves of drug addicts, addicted to fucking dopamine who can no longer get high over legitimate grievances start making ones up and then begin to shut out reality, because reality won't let them shoot up effectively. Then all these people are locked in a room, screaming, dictating morality, hallucinating because they're high, seeing demons and Nazis everywhere. Nobody but their own kind is human to them. They become impossible to negotiate with. Its impossible to be forgiven. Unlike religion, there is no mechanism for penance. Once you are guilty, you are guilty for life.

Here, there is no God to forgive you, no church or mosque to go to. No authority to plead to. No saints to worship. No prayers to say. Not enough money in the world to tithe. Just a den of insane addicts holding court over you, forever. Reminding everyone of your sins, mostly imagined. And then, when you can't take enough, when its just too much and you kill yourself, a literal blood sacrifice, that is still not enough for their drug addled brains. They wanted more out of you before you die. They offer no signs of sympathy. Only more blood and pain and suffering from you.

They'll tear your corpse out from its coffin and parade it around in the streets, throwing it in a chair and shout accusations at it. They're horrifying people and the society they wish to create is equally horrifying. I guess that's why I'm very against Westernization or giving things to Western companies, where these people and their ideology are dominant. Give me 100 people, who don't believe in evolution. They at least believe in forgiveness. They believe in loving your enemy. I feel like these people, at least some, can go out and have a good time with the staunchest atheist imaginable, because in their heart they can love someone that rejects every one of his beliefs. Can you imagine the opposite? I didn't use to be this way. I hated the religious right. But even in their worst moments, their most heinous abuses of power, it never really occurred to me: they could forgive you. It was integral. Redemption was part of them. I hate anti-evolutionists. But they could forgive you. Maybe even be swayed. At the very least, they'd think of you as a human being who has just the wrong ideas on the world. Not these people. You are no longer a human being. You are a member of the alt-right, a Nazi, a misogynist, something lower than scum. Sure, some of the very religious will call you a devil, but those sorts are a very rare breed right now and more in line with genuine insanity than fundamentalism. Both ideologies are authoritarian and censorious. But only one right now has the power to censor. And the other, largely relegated to impotence, can't really do anything. But you look at them and think they can forgive the most heinous people alive. You look to the progressives, they can't even forgive a bad date.

The suicide of that game dev, this toxic progressive culture is really starting to get to me. Our culture is being ruled by dopamine addicts, as bad as heroin addicts. And our only recourse is expensive litigation or suicide. Neither of which will even begin to stem this cancer. I just don't know what will anymore. I've forgiven worse people. These people are opportunistic sociopaths. They will hold your sins over your head until you die. They will put your corpse on trial like they did to the pope.

There is nothing that you can say or do that can assuage them. If you bend the knee, it will never end for you. They will knock you down in the mud and make sure you stay there. The boot will be on your neck forever. Your friends will know about your crimes. Your employer will. Your family. They'll pin you there until you fucking drown. And once you do, they'll lament how you never really meant your apology. At how your dying was a shame because you were so guilty you took the cowards way out. They'll just so happen to forget it was their boot drowning you. Never letting you up for air. Then, they'll leave your corpse for your family to deal with, casually looking for the next person to drown, because their high is slipping, they need to find someone else. If they can't, they might pull you back out and parade you around for a few days until they can get a hit.

So, my fellow Kiwis. Atheists. Christians. Whatever. Never, ever apologize for anything you do to these sort of people. Own it. Because if you own it, they can't own you. They don't view you as human. You cannot reason with them. You cannot negotiate. And you can never, ever, apologize to them. Because their forgiveness is a trap, one from which you will never escape.
 
I would be careful about "never apologizing to anyone" stance. There are few times were the outrage mob are well....justified in being outraged. See Sargon of Akkad. The hardest part for the times we live in now is trying to discern rather what the person did deserve the ire of the mob or the mob is acting like a bunch of idiots.

8 times out of 10 its the latter.
 
I would be careful about "never apologizing to anyone" stance. There are few times were the outrage mob are well....justified in being outraged. See Sargon of Akkad. The hardest part for the times we live in now is trying to discern rather what the person did deserve the ire of the mob or the mob is acting like a bunch of idiots.
So you are saying it depends on the outrage mob? Truly shocking applebee's managers aren't paragons of virtue and thought I know
 
So you are saying it depends on the outrage mob? Truly shocking applebee's managers aren't paragons of virtue and thought I know
No I'm saying it depends on what the person did that deserve the outrage. If someone does something or says something objectively wrong or stupid there's nothing wrong in walking that back and apologizing. Sargon's problem is that he said a ton of objectively stupid stuff especially for an "aspiring" politician. Remember even Trump apologize for the "grab her by the pussy" comment which he didn't even need too. Sargon just straight up made fun of a woman's level of attractiveness by deeming her of not being worthy of being raped by him.

Like I said this rarely happens nowadays.
 
I think the place your argument falls apart is the gap between believing in evolution and industry wide sexual coercion from powerful people. Granted there was some shit that didn't belong in the "me too" movement that got treated with as much weight as serious allegations (i.e. the girl who went on a bad date with Aziz Ansari) but a man who could build an empire in his industry while constantly taking sexual advantage of people is a lot to throw up against the wall next to "doesn't believe in evolution".

I don't think forgiveness is dead but I think outrage is alive and growing so I think I see what you're going for.
 
I think the place your argument falls apart is the gap between believing in evolution and industry wide sexual coercion from powerful people. Granted there was some shit that didn't belong in the "me too" movement that got treated with as much weight as serious allegations (i.e. the girl who went on a bad date with Aziz Ansari) but a man who could build an empire in his industry while constantly taking sexual advantage of people is a lot to throw up against the wall next to "doesn't believe in evolution".

I don't think forgiveness is dead but I think outrage is alive and growing so I think I see what you're going for.

I'm not really talking about the beginning of #metoo where you had your Matt Lauers, your Charlie Roses and your Harvey Weinstein's. I'm talking about your current day outrage mob where baseless allegations results in total destruction of your life. These unprovable whispers that the mob just straight up believes. I use the Christian fundamentalists to counter these allegations, since at least they would treat you human.

I'm more focused on the average people struck by this by manipulative people who make their lives catering to the mob or people who want to cater to the mob for their social justice fix. The dopamine addicts who need constant approval.

No I'm saying it depends on what the person did that deserve the outrage. If someone does something or says something objectively wrong or stupid there's nothing wrong in walking that back and apologizing. Sargon's problem is that he said a ton of objectively stupid stuff especially for an "aspiring" politician. Remember even Trump apologize for the "grab her by the pussy" comment which he didn't even need too. Sargon just straight up made fun of a woman's level of attractiveness by deeming her of not being worthy of being raped by him.

Like I said this rarely happens nowadays.

Sargon died on a dumb hill twice. He could have apologized for the patreon comments as apologizing to a corporation is very different to the mob. I don't know if apologizing to the woman would have done anything.
 
I think part of the issue with the woke brigade is that, contrary to a lot of religious people, they don't consider their beliefs to be, well, beliefs. Whereas Christianity understands that a leap of faith is required and consequently allows the believer to voice doubts, this progressive ideology has pretensions of being the absolute and obvious Truth. The woke brigade punishes lapses in faith almost as severely as any other transgression against their ideals so it takes a particularly strong person to throw them off; dissent isn't just a mark of spiritual shortcomings. It's more akin to a mental illness in their eyes. How could you not understand the beautiful truth of their designs? You'd have to be broken or irredeemably evil, but of course they don't use that word because it's a relic of an uncivilized time.
 
I think you've identified a common failure mode in any ideology and are applying it too narrowly.

Hardcore Evangelicals talk a good game about forgiveness, but they rarely walk it. If they've already decided you aren't one of the Elect, even if you recant, they'll make some mouth-sounds about how they're glad you came into the fold and then put you under a microscope, measuring with an ever-finer rule to find flaws to criticize you for. And then they'll lash you for it until you recant again, and the whole cycle begins anew until you either totally break or flee.
 
We live in a very strange time. On the one hand there's this kangaroo court stuff going on. But on the other hand there's also the incredible tolerance for all kinds of things that we know aren't good. We're simultaneously normalizing every type of fetish and making sexuality the primary identity and filter for a considerable section of the population. But on the other hand, we've got men completely checking out of interacting with women at work in order to protect themselves. It's this very strange pouring of gasoline on everybody, and a nervousness about which people will ignite.

You're right that penance is missing. It was a great engine; the price of forgiveness was bowing low and admitting fault. Now there seems to be a complete unpredictability; some of the worst things are quickly forgiven, while other times relatively minor things become permanent marks on reputation. It's honestly weird to observe.

Here in Europe we'll have more and more of the population that have islamic values, which means that the way to have penance is through more barberous paths, like becoming a martyr. If you look into a considerable number of the terrorist attacks, they were bad muslims. And I don't consider it unlikely that from their guilt they were offered a path of penance, hurt the enemies of islam. In one case I had a close brush with it even; with a kid wanting to move to ISIS to fight a couple of years back. Two of his friends had already died, but he felt so incredibly guilty by not being able to pray 5 times a day in a european school. His mosque had already helped set up the travel plans. His parents were furious.

You see, where christian penance was submission to god and acts of charity, muslim penance looks rather different. It looks like a truck driving down a busy shopping street.

Though the complete lack of penance is little better than that.

At its heart is also just the lack of shared value system. And part of the cause of that is also the ethnic conflict due to mass migration. Studies like putnam show a clear message of the cost of multiculturalism which is really just multi-ethnicism.

Anyways to get back on the subject of penance; I think it's a storm to be weathered. I certainly don't think like @CheezzyMach that it'll be something that blows over soon. It's more that there will at some point be people crafting order out of chaos. And it might be a worse order, as people will accept any order as solution. That's how you create more draconian laws btw, by first creation chaos. I don't like to be blackpilled and instead maintain optimism, but I find it hard to see a path where things really get better. But maybe we just have to weather the storm.

Apres le deluge....nous.
 
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I have always held that forgiveness should be a lot like acceptance. It is something that is earned and shouldn't be given to every asshole who asks for it because then it loses it meaning. Alot of people confuse it with tolerance or putting up with a past mistake/massive fuck up. There is also this strange thing going on that you can force a human ,adult or child, to apologies. That is just impossible all you are doing is making them say words with no weight behind them. You can put someone through all the diversity training,Anti bullying classes,Anti-Rape courses and you can never force someone to apologies and truly mean it even a gunpoint. The left gets this notion that you can force someone to apologies in grade school where you can tell a teacher of a bad action them to force a kid to apologize to you. As a child you can associate that this apology means they are trying to save their own skin not that they truly are sorry or to put it differently "sorry they got caught". I think this is the sorta stuff that grow up with so they think they can force adults to change their action/belief by simply making them apologize.

What i think you are looking are people who don't want an apology but they want to force you to change. They never will forgive you because that isn't the end goal of them bitching you out.
 
Hell no, some things can't & shouldn't be forgiven.

Some dumb shit happened in the Indi scene could tho but the drama queers will never do it.
 
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I think OP you're a little optimistic about the old guard such as the religious right being able to forgive; anyone who lived in Ireland during the Free-State era up until the fall of the Catholic Church in the early 90's can tell you that the authorities were anything but forgiving for perceived "sins". Institutions such as the Magdalene Laundries where girls were sent for sins including being too pretty, being sighted near boys and having a single mother for a parent went on to serve their entire lives in unpaid slave labor because they were "fallen women" beyond forgiveness and redemption. This wasn't a late Irish Catholic novelty, but historically something that existed across the globe in states where the Catholic faith was ascendant.

That's merely my favourite example, but a cursory look at European history shows that forgiveness is only a virtue to a group while it isn't the dominant force. The Early Church was relatively pacifistic until it gained power, as were the Protestants until they gained the upper hand over previous authorities. It goes for secular states and organizations as well, the French middle classes suddenly realized in the late 18th century they could harness the lower classes like a sledgehammer to crush their social betters.

I don't agree with everything Nietzche said, but his description of slave morality comes to mind here. Forgiveness is a virtue for the oppressed, and not the oppressor. We are now in an age where both the Radical far right and left command authority over states or significant enough numbers of people forgiveness, a form of compromise, no longer needs to be considered within their echo chambers. It will resurge when one side falls and becomes set upon by the victor and they suddenly realise it's actually beneficial to them once again.
 
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