FlamingPie
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The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers
- Thread starter RichardMongler
- Start date
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No problem.
Objectively, what makes more sense in this particular case?
That the Nazis executed 70,000 people and buried them. But then went to the trouble of exhuming all of them, set up giant granite grilles and burnt them till no evidence was left, including removing the shell casings. They then took these grilles away leaving nothing at the site. Also take into account the enormous fuel load needed to burn that many people.
Or, that it’s not a mass grave site at all and the story is bullshit.
FlamingPie
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According to the aforementioned testimony, the prisoners were forced to do this around for 12 - 15 hours a day. I think it might be plausible for such a thing to happen. It didn't help that the Nazis were up shit creek without a paddle by August 1943 and the guys that the top had gone further off the deep end at that point, knowing that any chance of victory had gone up in smoke.
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Starving inmates in the KZ. Not much to say really. A sergeant in the Air Corps isn't going to be privy to a lot of stuff.
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You told us one of the reasons the Holocaust happened was because your grandfather was at Dachau. Now your telling us he didn’t see much except starving prisoners, which no one denies there were.
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Yes, that is obviously the only reason, ever, it has nothing to do with the other stuff that happened. It's simply my grandfather, he is the only witness to any of this ever.
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Why straw man mine? I made a post in the last page or two outlining what the Holocaust was and why people should believe it. You gave me this response
You don't care, you just hate Jews (understandable) but the Nazis were bloodthirsty assholes and what's more, they were German, which means they don't do things half assed, unlike the Soviets with their Holodomor
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You seem a little out of your depth so I’m trying to be polite here. That’s not what a straw man is.
Either way, why mention your grandfather at all?
Just give a rough estimate of how many people were killed during the Holocaust so I can know what I’m denying.
Yawn.
This isn’t an argument. It’s just parroting the propaganda that’s fed to the masses.
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The general "rough estimate" for Jews is between 5 and 6 million. For other people put in the extermination thru labor camps, it appears to be between 12 to 15 million, with some going as high as 20 million (doubtful for the camps alone; probable in general considering what the Germans did to the USSR). Also, nice moving the goalposts.
I mentioned my grandfather because he was actually there in the European theater and is useful to the conversation.
Considering what we actually know the Nazis were doing, yeah, they were pretty bloodthirsty. Unless of course they were totally justified in grabbing as much European territory as they could. I mean, who cares about Poles mirite
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So if I don’t think roughly 12 million were killed by the Nazis then I’m a denier?
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Sure, why not
By the way, what do you think of the documents we have from Mengele's experiments on Gypsies?
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“ An oft-cited statistic of 5 million non-J.ewish Holocaust deaths has no basis in fact, experts say, and may be contributing to denial efforts”
Oof! Seems like you are the denier here. You are being anti-Semitic by inflating the number to downplay J.ewish suffering.
I couldn’t give a shit what Mengele did to be honest, that’s not the argument at hand. But if you want to link them I’ll have a look.
Johan Schmidt
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The issue of human experimentation is not the same as theHolocaust itaelf. But what was supposed to have happened to the prisoners when they were shipped to the USSR? If the plan was to send them east but also to invade theeast and displace the baltic peoples then where werethey supposed to go after?
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Blah blah blah, Times of Israel blah blah blah. In general people lump it in with that.
You probably should care about what Mengele did, since he wouldn't have done what he did without the fact that the Greater German Reich shipped the Gypsies to camps.
You can simply check the Wikipedia article on this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_human_experimentation. If you don't want to read the article, here is an interesting book on the subject - https://archive.org/details/mengelecompletes00posn And if you don't want to read a Wikipedia article or a book, and go thru the sources on it yourself to see if they're genuine, I'm not spoonfeeding you.
The human experimentation would not have occurred in the first place if the resources of the Greater German Reich had not been expended in building the concentration camps and shipping the prisoners there. The concentration camps were first explicitly for political prisoners, then homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, and gypsies, then eventually Jews when it was made clear that there would not have been any way to just expel them from the Third Reich, since other countries weren't taking them. (See: SS St Louis) The Nazis were publicly organizing pogroms and squeezing Jews out of civil life anyhow; the war just gave the German govt the excuse to just ship them all "to the East", much like how NKVD in the USSR summarily shot whoever they felt was "counter-revolutionary" and just said that they were sent to penal colonies for 10 years without the right of correspondence.
It is notable that a good deal of the people responsible for the Nazi concentration camp system ended up being absorbed into the American CIA.
Bungus Scrungus
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I used to think this thing and that about the death toll; and aside from silly things like masturbation death machines, there's not really anything I deny about the Holocaust. Maybe the numbers are a bit exaggerated? Maybe they aren't? I don't know, but what I do know is that making it illegal to even say that you think that is stupid and dumb. You don't see Holodomor deniers having their beliefs be illegal. All you're doing is validating what they're saying by actually making it illegal. If what you're saying is the truth and nothing but the truth, you shouldn't make it illegal for people to say otherwise. That just makes you look suspicious.
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It was either William Pierce or George Rockwell who started the Holocaust denial movement in order to make National Socialism a viable political philosophy again, and a lot of the weird over the top stories about the Holocaust can be directly traced to Soviet propaganda. There were no lampshades, there were no soap bars, there were no electrified killing floors. What we do know is that Nazis hated Jews, and expelled the Jews from their lands to the East, to be exterminated thru labor, since work makes you free.
You're not going to get a hand signed letter from Hitler saying "Kill all the Jews - A. Hitler." What you WILL find is that there were a lot of people doing it because they thought it would please Hitler, and by the time of the Wannsee Conference the Nazis, being Nazis, and also being German, just decided to get rid of the Jews as the Jews still had some money to be squeezed out of them - and, considering the Jewish propaganda in the Weimar Republic, one can scarcely blame them for just wanting all the Jews off the land or under it. Babi Yar repulsed the Germans due to the sheer scale of it carried out by the Ukrainians who, not without justification, associated Jews with the brutal Communism they had been living under... and the Nazis were just as bad if not worse.
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I believe Hitler just wanted them out of Germany’s original borders. The plan was to have them build ghettos there.
You can clearly see a pattern, not of extermination, but of wanting them relocated.
Before the war, Hitler cut a deal with Zionist leaders to ship them to the Middle East via the Haavara Agreement. Then during the war they initially had the idea for the Madagascar Plan,
then when that was deemed unrealistic, they tried to send Croatian and Slovakian Jews back home, but their host countries wouldn’t take them. Britain was even too scared to take in Bulgarian J.ews as late as 1943, because they thought if German J.ews asked to be allowed to go to Britain Hitler would let them.
To quote the British foreign secretary:
“ that the whole problem of the Jews in Europe is very difficult and that we should move cautiously about offering to take all Jews out of a country like Bulgaria. If we do that, then the Jews of the world will be wanting us to make similar offers in Poland and Germany. Hitler might well take us up on any such offer and there simply are not enough ships and means of tranportation in the world to handle them.”
I just don’t see a pattern of genocidal behaviour towards the J.ewish people.